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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2008 3:28:59 GMT
Hmmm, nevermind then. If you did all that to it then cracked them they might have just been from the quench.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2008 6:50:05 GMT
Hmmm, nevermind then. If you did all that to it then cracked them they might have just been from the quench. Yeah, they definately weren't there prior to quenching. I flexed the blade around a lot looking to see how the geometry affected it etc. I even went over it with a magnifying glass in the early stages of filing to see if any of the surface pitting that looked like cracks, really were. It was clean. I'm both sad, and glad that this is the case. That means the steel isn't flawed so other blades from this stuff should be ok. It also means I simply screwed it up lol. Cris
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Post by Dan Davis on Nov 25, 2008 14:17:33 GMT
Cris, Your ashi are too thick, there are too many of them, they are placed too regularly for this blade geometry, and yes you are right they should not go all the way to the edge.
Ashi are placed to relieve the stresses developed by quenching and if you place them completely evenly along the entire blade well then they become nothing more than another part of the clay coating. Had I applied the coating to the blade then the ashi placed in the first third of the blade would have been perpendicular to the edge, 1/2" apart and about 2/3 the distance between habuchi and ha. The second third of the blade would have been slightly closer together but slightly shorter and the monouchi starting at the point where the blade pitched forward would have ashi about 1/4" apart, almost entirely the width betwen habuchi and ha and would be angled slightly from machi to kissaki so that they pitched backward. These would have gradually transitioned back to being about 3/16" apart and just slightly less than the width of habuchi to ha all the way to the kissaki.
On the even application of clay: every place you left a line of clay from your ashi sticking up became a stress concentration point in the blade. Better to apply the ashi first and then completely smooth out the clay on top of it.
On the ridge at the bottom edge of the clay: this is used in the formation of midari-ba hamon; it is a shelf that drags water from the quench and then lets it trickle over the lip and down the edge of the blade to form the random, irregular shape prized in midare-ba blades. If you are doing a controlled hamon you don't need it. There is no gospel that says it must or must not be there. Plus, consider what happened with the retained water when it found those big honking ashi lines of yours; where did the water run to?
On Randal Graham: Randal is a consummate blade maker and has always been more than willing to share his knowledge but be aware that W1, W2 and 1060 are very different steels and react quite differently. And Randal was breaking a fair number of blades himself when he was using the W1; it comes with the territory and I have a largish pile of broken blades myself. You can play it safe and use oil or you can play hard and expect blades to break. The ones that survive are superior.
On fumbari: This only applies to the first 1/4 of the blade in front of the machi and has nothing at all to do with the monouchi pitching down. Also, when building in fumbari on a blade you should put all of the extra width on the edge side, none on mune. The mune should remain straight, or with the sori you pre-build into it.
Did I miss anything? Oh, yes. The grain looks fine for a through-hardened blade but a katana should not have a smooth, fine grain throughout. The body and spine should look like troosite. Perfect evidence that you quenched it too long. Also indicates that you had a very good annealling and normalising cycle.
Did I miss anything else? I'll review and if so I'll post again.
I recommend that you build 10 tanto: 4 short, 1 medium, 3 short, 1 medium, 1 long in that order. Play with the shape of the clay, the effects of that ridge and the shape of ashi on the short ones and play with your ashi on the medium and long blades. Expect 4 of the 10 to break and learn all you can from all of them.
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Post by Matt993f.o.d on Nov 25, 2008 19:34:26 GMT
Poor poor Cris. Doesnt it just BITE when so much work goes bang?
Although, something I would say is that in Yoshihara-sans book, it is stated in the chapter on yaki-ire, that blades often break. This, bear in mind, is a masters work, and it still breaks at times in the quench. Water is just aggressive that way.
Thats why you shouldnt feel so bad.
Bet you'll be more conservative next time though. Think of all that hard work going bang, and you'll reach STRAIGHT for the oil drum and not the water tank! ;D
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2008 20:11:31 GMT
First I'd like to say thanks Dan...as always you've given me more information and hard earned experience than is necessary, and I appreciate it. I have a whole notebook dedicated to your commentary...in all of these threads, and a whole chapter on just how much you've helped me in this one. Poor poor Cris. Doesnt it just BITE when so much work goes bang? Although, something I would say is that in Yoshihara-sans book, it is stated in the chapter on yaki-ire, that blades often break. This, bear in mind, is a masters work, and it still breaks at times in the quench. Water is just aggressive that way. Thats why you shouldnt feel so bad. Bet you'll be more conservative next time though. Think of all that hard work going bang, and you'll reach STRAIGHT for the oil drum and not the water tank! ;D LOL I must be hard headed Matt =). Well, that, and the fact that I have NO clue how you'd get positive sori from an oil quench on a Japanese style blade lol. Maybe an experiment for another day =D. Seriously though...I'm going to at least learn this water quench thing. I have oil for regular knife blades, but for the Japanese stuff I think the water needs nailed down. I'm sure there will be failures, but it's a consequence I'll have to live with. I WILL be hedging my bets though lol...with an oil tank next to my water tank for a dual quench. I'm starting a tonto today...maybe it will be ready for heat treat by the weekend if things go well =). Key points I'll be watching for lol: - Straight spine - Even taper on the edge - Proper clay application with proper ashi - NAIL the critical temp, and the soak time...use my brain and the damn infrared thermometer I had sitting on my bench to check the edge temperature... - NAIL the interrupt...in approximately 2 seconds then out 3, then into oil for 5-7...then out and check for warps (straighten if necessary)...then into water to final cool... - Temper IMMEDIATELY (even before checking hardness...I'd rather waste an hour of temper time than crack another one). I think that about covers my worst mistakes on the wakizashi. Hopefully this next one lives. If you guys want me to, I'll do a short(er) documentary on it too. I don't mind having you all follow along...and it gives more experienced people a chance to tell me where I'm screwing up...which always helps me improve lol. Cris
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Post by Dan Davis on Nov 25, 2008 22:11:27 GMT
Hey Cris, In rereading this I guess I may have sounded kind of harsh- not intended. I simply had a lot of stuff to get down and only a few minutes to do it. On the bright side you now have a lot of broken blade pieces that you can use to make a drag scraper like Yoshihara-san uses
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Post by brotherbanzai on Nov 25, 2008 23:00:17 GMT
Hey Cris, I haven't checked this thread in a few days, sorry to hear about the blade failure. Kudos for taking all the corrective criticism so well. And very nice of Dan and Sam and everybody to take the time to post so much useful info.
Also, just think how much the rest of us got to learn from your mistakes ;D. maybe this thread ought to be stickied, there's quite a lot of good information in here.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2008 0:06:16 GMT
This needs to go on the tutorial list.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2008 3:49:39 GMT
Hey Cris, In rereading this I guess I may have sounded kind of harsh- not intended. I simply had a lot of stuff to get down and only a few minutes to do it. On the bright side you now have a lot of broken blade pieces that you can use to make a drag scraper like Yoshihara-san uses Not at all Dan!! I'd rather have a blunt, honest teacher than one that pats me on the back all the time and says how good I'm doing while watching me make mistake after mistake lol. I'm not a big fan of the whole 'Self Esteem is more important than Education' mentality that's prevalent nowadays. If I screw up I want to be told so I can improve. My kids gain their self esteem not by being told they're doing well when they aren't, but by being told they're not...improving...and THEN being told how well they did. Even when they do great right from the start...I praise them whole heartedly...then ask them if there is anything they might have done different if they got another chance (in context of course). This makes them think back on their successes just as much as their failures, and always try to improve...all the while knowing that I'm proud of their success, and just as proud of an honest try. 'Good enough' is an ok thing if an honest effort was made, and if they fail and tried their hardest I make damn sure they know it's more than ok, it's still something to be proud of. It's failing without trying their hardest that is shameful. So far I've been lucky and they seem to have learned the lesson well =). I never did understand people that post their work, then get upset when people who know more than they do try to help lol...no matter HOW it may have come across (and you weren't negative in any manner regardless). Help is help...take it and improve, or leave it and wallow in mediocrity...all the while wondering why no one comments on your work anymore lol =p. Now...about those scrapers lol. If I can find a single 2" of blade that doesn't have a 1/4" crack in it I will make one for sure lol. I went to make a kwaiken out of the 'cleanest' part of the blade that remained (the 10" or so from the nakago to the middle cracks). I heated it up with a torch to kill the hardness in the edge area...and as it changed colors all these tiny little cracks appeared, varying from 1/8" to 1/4" long. The tip piece seems ok lol, maybe I'll make one from that =p. Hey Cris, I haven't checked this thread in a few days, sorry to hear about the blade failure. Kudos for taking all the corrective criticism so well. And very nice of Dan and Sam and everybody to take the time to post so much useful info. Also, just think how much the rest of us got to learn from your mistakes ;D. maybe this thread ought to be stickied, there's quite a lot of good information in here. Thanks BB lol. See the above on the constructive criticism thing...it's why I post =p. Well, that and so that maybe people will learn from what I do right, as well as what I do wrong. If I can post up with pictures while I'm learning...maybe someone reading it and starting out in the same way I did might not make the same mistakes, or follow in my path if I did things right. Sam, feel free to make it a sticky/tutorial. I know it was more a 'what not to do' thread...but like I said that's as important, if not more important...than a 'what to do' thread. Plus I think there's good information all the way through it regardless =). Again, thanks everyone. Hopefully my next piece will turn out lol, and I can post up a 'how to' on that for Sam to sticky. I'd much rather be known for doing things right lol! Cris
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2008 20:28:10 GMT
"Other than the tsuka maki, doing the furniture is pretty easy. Here's a picture of a tsuba I made for my old PPK out of a blank, and the reworked PPK furniture:" (Sorry still have not mastered the quote button). Easy??? I would love to see a dedicated thread for that Tsuba. That is gorgeous. Thank you!! Some don't like it because of the finish. It really was an easy thing though. If you're starting from a pre-made blank...meaning one with laser cut holes already...you just spend a LOT of time cleaning it up with jewelers files and sand paper. If you're starting from a circular, flat piece of steel...you lay out your design (I copied a 'musashi moon and stars' style and edited it for my purposes), then drill holes in each part you want pierced, and use a jewelers saw to connect the dots so to speak. Some advice on the jewelers saw...buy about a million blades. They're cheap, and you'll snap 999,999 of them in the process. If you're careful...doing it this way provides a better finish and makes for less filing, plus you're not limited to an existing pattern. Any picture or pattern you can make in negative relief can be used. Then it's just a matter of applying the finish of your choice. Your base material chosen will have a lot to do with that. Copper, wrought iron, mild steel...all will have different properties. On mine, I chose a chrome finish because I was intending to heat blue it for a really deep blue/magenta color (think motorcycle pipes) to match my blue same, and chrome oxides are tougher than most. I just never got around to it. If I'd left it mild steel I could have cold rust blackened it for a really nice finish as well. Anyhow, as I said it's really not that hard. The rest of the furniture is about as easy if you have any skill with soldering. Understand though that's just for a clean, basic fuchi/kashira (similar to the ones I pictured) that will allow the attention to flow to the tsuba and blade. Those are the kind I favor anyhow. Japanese fittings are an art form unto themselves...and my commentary is in no way intended to take away from those craftsmen who create at those levels. They truly have my respect. I just prefer to use things of my own making to 'bought' pieces, and I prefer simple fittings (lucky for me lol, my skillset only covers 'simple' =p). Anyhow, hope that helps. I was going to make a basic tsuba for this wakizashi of cold rust blackened mild steel...if Sam wants I suppose I could write a sort of 'tutorial' for it. There's really not a lot of steps involved...more effort than anything else. Cris
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Post by Matt993f.o.d on Nov 26, 2008 22:15:29 GMT
You say you'll do it with water in future but personally I would use oil for the next one, if only to ensure that it works.
After all, it really helps to motivate you to get a project done. Doing the same project twice is sh*t. I've just done it with the wretched bowie, and I hated it (its finished at last, by the way). Its just too rubbish to be doing the same steps over and over again.
But if you MUST do it again, best of luck. You deserve it, for sheer effort expended.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2008 22:20:37 GMT
You say you'll do it with water in future but personally I would use oil for the next one, if only to ensure that it works. After all, it really helps to motivate you to get a project done. Doing the same project twice is sh*t. I've just done it with the wretched bowie, and I hated it (its finished at last, by the way). Its just too rubbish to be doing the same steps over and over again. But if you MUST do it again, best of luck. You deserve it, for sheer effort expended. Thanks man =). And, this is good advice with a lot of truth behind it. As a matter of fact, as we speak...I'm researching sori and oil...just to see if it's even a possible combination. The curvature is the main reason I'm hesitant in using oil on Japanese blades. Looks like some guys are using Parks 50...but there's not a lot of commentary as to how they did the sori thing. I think I'm going to PM Dan Pfanenstiel and see if he has any advice, as he's using Parks. From my understanding Parks and the like combine the positives of water quenching (extra hard edge, good hamon, etc etc) with the positives of oil (SAFETY factor lol). I just need to find out how it affects curvature. I may do water on the next one and see how it goes...but I'm defintatly researching other avenues. One being salt pots lol. Cris
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2008 1:05:32 GMT
Your best bet IMHO would be to do the brine oil combo, you get the best of both worlds, postive fast cooling, beautiful sori, and a massive high success rate once you get the hang of it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2008 1:18:11 GMT
Your best bet IMHO would be to do the brine oil combo, you get the best of both worlds, postive fast cooling, beautiful sori, and a massive high success rate once you get the hang of it. This is good to know Sam...and it was my intent to try with the osoraku tonto. Got one of those damn clips (I'm going to end up hating them soon if I don't get some form of artificial hammering going on lol) drawn out yesterday, and most of the sunobe for the tonto. I can say I'm doing better lol, only took me 3 bags to draw one out to 3/4"x1/4". This blade is a bit larger blade too, but not like the wakizashi...13" nagasa, 6" nakago. Should be a fun little deal if I can do as good a job forging it as I did on the wakizashi. Also, I am taking Dan's suggestion on the tonto 'recipe' he mentioned. 10 blades, small and medium. I just promised Ricky I'd attempt this one first. Oh also!! A friend (John Smith) is letting me borrow his copy of Yoshihara-san's katana forging video =). It's supposed to be the counterpart (in video) to his book. Should be a very enjoyable hour or so. Good stuff =). At $95 for a VHS tape! no less, it would probably be awhile before I was able to pick that one up. Cris
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2008 1:44:19 GMT
Cool, John is good people! Powerhammer would eat those clips for breakfast, probably 1 or 2 heats tops to draw one out. Let me borrow 9,000$ and I will do it for you .
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2008 1:48:09 GMT
Cool, John is good people! Powerhammer would eat those clips for breakfast, probably 1 or 2 heats tops to draw one out. Let me borrow 9,000$ and I will do it for you . Haha! If I had $9000 to loan you...I'd just build one myself =p. Seriously though...I've got a space saver tire...access to a lot of scrap, and a will...lol. Hopefully I'll come up with something soon =). My hand aches for two days after spending quality time with one of those clips lol. Normal forging doesn't make them ache at all...but man, drawing those things out by hand is painful! Cris
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2008 1:52:07 GMT
Time to buy some real blade steel sounds like to me. I can remember the rail clip days hehehe, I drew one out once into a 26 inch sword once, I understand where you are coming from. Once you make the move to barstock you will enjoy it and never go back(until you have a powerhammer/if you get a powerhammer).
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