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Post by Dan Davis on Nov 12, 2008 4:56:45 GMT
you use paper to get the coal going and the coal to get the coke going. OR you can just use dry pine cones and skip the coal.
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Post by Matt993f.o.d on Nov 12, 2008 22:22:32 GMT
You're welcome. Coke doesnt go out too fast. Occasionally I'll be forging away, realize its supper time, go in and eat, come back out, turn the blower back on and the fire will be roaring again in five minutes. This is a great time to pull the clinkers out, as a bonus.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2008 6:29:41 GMT
Well, back on topic...I got a bit more done on the sunobe tonight. In three and a half hours of forging I managed to complete 90% of my preform. The majority of the distal thickness is forged in, and I've got pretty much what I think is all the length I'm going to get. I may gain a bit more when I correct the few wide spots and finish the profile of the edge line, and a tiny bit more when I profile the nakago, but I don't think I'll get any more than an inch if that. My understanding is I may gain another inch in the forging of the edge bevels...which will bring the overall length to just over 27", with a roughly 21-22" nagasa. Not quite what I wanted but I've got to take what I can get here =). All in all I'm pretty happy with it overall. The thickness is relatively consistent...a hair over 1/4". I didn't really feel comfortable with my ability to forge right to 1/4" lol. The width tapers nicely, and I left in some of the sori I got in drawing it out. I'm not really 100% sure whether or not I'm going to forge in my sori and leave the spine unclayed, or go ahead and see what the water gives me...but to be honest I think I want more control this time around, so I may just forge it in and go with that. If I do it right maybe I'll get a rather cool effect I can bring out in the polish! Overall measurements as it sits are: OAL - 25 1/8" Nakago - Undetermined Nagasa - Undetermined Width at the Yokote (1" from the point) - 3/4" Width at the Machi - 15/16" (estimated machi location) Width at the Nakago Base (butt) - 5/8" Thickness at the Yokote - 1/4" Thickness at the Machi - 9/32" (estimated machi location) Thickness at the Nakago Base (butt) - 5/32" I'm thinking, for the final product, of having a shinogi ji of about 1/3 blade width at the machi, with a proper taper to the kissaki. I'm not sure the proper term, but I'd like the shinogi ji to have a lot of taper to the mune, perhaps as much as half the thickness of the blade (leaving 1/8" for the actual mune). I'm not sure if this is the proper way to forge a Japanese style sword...but I think the result will be very light and fast in the hand (sort of a bo-hi without actually having one), which is something I'm trying to accentuate since the blade is already going to be short. For the sori, if it ends up in the 20"-22" nagasa range (which is what I think I'm looking at), 1/2" should appear pretty aggressive I would think. I find a LOT of people online seem to want 'lots of sori' in their Japanese blades, with 1" being a regular number for something with 26"-28" nagasa. My understanding of JSA is that moderate sori is actually preferred. If I keep making Japanese style blades I think I'll just run with the middle ground lol, unless (not likely any time soon!) it's a commission. Here's some pictures: Overall profile (notice there's no hammer dings!!). I'm pretty happy with it. I need to straighten out the line from the yokote to the machi on the edge side to a consistent angle though. Once I get an idea of what the over all length I'm going to end up with is, I'll determine where precisely to put the machi. Weight at this point is 1lb 10oz, a reduction of 2oz since the last measurement, and only 1oz short of half a lb since I began!Thickness of the spine. I'm pretty happy with this as well. I was worried that I would have a problem with it being wavy with large dips and swells, since this is a much longer blade than I've ever done...but overall it's turned out nicely. One thing that is difficult to realize until you're actually doing it is that any glaring thick or thin spots stand out nicely when sighting down the blade...then it's just a matter of making sure the heat is in the correct place, and gentle taps until it's gone. The overall result is surprisingly precise, even with my lack of hammering experience. The unfortunate aspect of all this is any correction in width requires multiple corresponding corrections in thickness lol. Very time consuming to get right.Thickness of the edge. Again overall I'm happy with it. Like the spine it's consistent and only tapers at the ends where I wanted it to. One negative point I noticed is you can see a long side to side curve in the blade from the tip to the butt here. I did spend some time flattening things on my last heat, but I probably worked one side a bit too much. Poor habit to get into I know. When the edges are ready and the blade is ready for heat treat...this is a mistake I will not be making.As I've said, overall I'm happy with it (other than the short length...although it's probably safer for me shorter lol, less chance per inch of screwing up!). My expectations of myself are pretty high...but I don't really have any examples of blades in this stage to compare mine to lol. Basically though everything turned out as I wanted, other than a few swells in the profile taper. I well over doubled the length of my starting billet, which I guess is good, and still have a bit of length to gain. I did forge in somewhat of a rounded tip, which will become something of an offset spear point (with the emphasis on the blade edge) as was suggested to me over at Don Fogg's forums. Oh, one last thing. I thought I'd add in a picture my wife took without the flash on accident. It was just getting dark enough where I needed the light. Turned out pretty cool I think. And before you ask...yes, that is a gas barbecue to the left lol, and yes, it is also the home of my forge =D. Cris
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2008 7:11:09 GMT
ohhh looking forward to seeing this
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2008 7:36:36 GMT
ohhh looking forward to seeing this Haha me too =). I've got a bunch of pictures of me forging it. It's turning out well I think. The signature 'katana' kissaki won't come in until I start forging the bevels. After that, it should look pretty much like it's supposed to. I spent a LOT of time reading around about how you forge the kissaki with a real yokote. Turns out it's just a lot of attention to detail (as is the rest of the damn thing lol). The easy part (of the blade work) is over...forging the bevels in, and particularly the kissaki is the real work. Once that's done...it's all about the heat treat and polish. I think I already know how I'm going to finish this one out as well. If things turn out as I plan, and it survives the heat treat...it should be a real piece of work. Other than the tsuka maki, doing the furniture is pretty easy. Here's a picture of a tsuba I made for my old PPK out of a blank, and the reworked PPK furniture: I know it's chrome lol, but in the end it all turned out really nice. Black leather, white same, polished chrome fittings, and polished copper habaki/seppa. Wish I still had the pictures of the finished sword...but all I have is partials. This one may be much the same, but with a LOT nicer habaki, in copper/silver mokume, mokume or pure polished copper seppa (oversized in thickness to become a design piece) a very small tsuba, almost aikuchi...but a bit larger...perhaps 1/4" to 3/8" larger than the fuchi, in either chrome or polished black...black or brown leather ito (for some reason I'm leaning towards brown) over I'm not sure WHAT color same. Depending on the color I go with the tsuba, the fuchi/kashira will either be chrome or polished black as well. I know a LOT of people don't like chrome on Japanese style blades...but, it can be VERY tasteful and, surprisingly understated if you offset it properly with other colors and textures. Chrome is very, very easy to overdo but it sets off a hand polished (read: dark) blade with a surprising amount of beauty if you do it right. The nice thing about it is it doesn't tarnish and lasts forever lol. On a working art piece like this, it may be just the ticket. Cris
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Post by Dan Davis on Nov 13, 2008 13:22:26 GMT
Cris, Let me step in and save you a lot of misery (I SHOULD let you learn the hard way): Take out all of the curvature in the sunobe. Stand it up horizontally on that nice flat anvil of yours ( I need one of those forks; if you run across another pair that size I'll drive out from Texas to get one ) and take out that curve at the nakago on mune, then level out the two humps on the nakago and blade side of the mune. The goal is to make the mune as straight and as level as you possibly can before beginning to forge the blade. Also, when working a 1/4" sunobe you need to make the width of the sunobe equal to 3/4 of the final blade width, and having appropriate tapers (unless you are going to grinder-jockey it into shape). It looks as if your sunobe is about 1" wide which is going to give you a blade width of close to1-1/2 inches; are you sure you want the blade that wide?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2008 18:39:49 GMT
Cris, Let me step in and save you a lot of misery (I SHOULD let you learn the hard way): You probably should lol...but the fact that you don't is a matter of endless appreciation =). Take out all of the curvature in the sunobe. Stand it up horizontally on that nice flat anvil of yours ( I need one of those forks; if you run across another pair that size I'll drive out from Texas to get one ) and take out that curve at the nakago on mune, then level out the two humps on the nakago and blade side of the mune. The goal is to make the mune as straight and as level as you possibly can before beginning to forge the blade. I'd wondered about which way to go with this (I did intend to straighten the spine before forging in the bevels, but wasn't sure which way to go with the final blade before hardening, curved or straight...with the clay used as a sori control). There are definitely still corrections to be made before the final forging begins. The tip, on the right of the top picture, needs final shaped so that forging the kissaki brings it in line with the mune. The entire mune needs straightened, and the entire edge needs reduced at an angle. If you picture the mune perfectly horizontal, my intent is to make the edge profile come off the bottom of the kissaki (where the yokote will be) at like a 2* angle...from 3/4" thickness at the kissaki to the 1" thickness at the machi in a perfectly straight line. I'm not sure how I'm going to accomplish this...as every hammer blow to 'straighten' either edge or mune seems to want to induce another curve around it =/. I find myself using the anvil to keep the mune straght, and working mostly the edge. I've tried very light blows all the way down to heavier blows lol. Then once I get it close, I've got to go through and reshape the thickness...which brings the edges all out of alignment again! I think it's just a matter of patiently working it until the adjustments are each very, very small...at which point I should be really, really close. I did consider fashioning a jig to hold the blade mune down on the long anvil, just so I could have a hand free to hold a 6" flat plate to beat the edge into submission lol. The width of the plate would disperse the force of the blows over a very large section, which I think would eliminate a lot of my 'opposite curvature' issues! Also, when working a 1/4" sunobe you need to make the width of the sunobe equal to 3/4 of the final blade width, and having appropriate tapers (unless you are going to grinder-jockey it into shape). It looks as if your sunobe is about 1" wide which is going to give you a blade width of close to1-1/2 inches; are you sure you want the blade that wide? I was basing my sunobe dimensions off of some work I'd seen by Randall Graham. He mentioned that a 1/4" sunobe will grow about 1/4" in the final blade, regardless of the width (to an extent). With mine being just under 1", that would equate to 1 1/4" final dimension. However...as you suggested, I was considering thinning it up a bit, although not for the reason you stated (I didn't realize my width was off base =D). The reason I was going to do it was to add a bit more graceful, thinner profile to the blade. This would also make it appear a bit longer than it is I think, and with undersized fittings that effect would only be maximized. I do intend to forge as much as possible into this blade. I've learned that I can easily shape things with files and such to be where I want them if I give myself room in the forging, but that doesn't improve my forging skills one bit. If every time I fire the forge up I try to forge closer to my desired shape, I may have some failures, but I'll definitely improve my skill set, which in the end is more important. On a last note I'd like to say please Dan, don't hesitate to correct me where you feel I need it. That's the reason I really began posting on these forums to begin with. I do try to follow the advice given...but even when I don't it's not completely disregarded. I have notes in my forging area on ALL of the things that have been suggested or told to me, and while some of it is contradictory, all of it leads to experimentation on my part, and whether I do it one way or another, the opposing viewpoint is always on my mind as I'm finalizing a process to attempt. The end result I've found is also rarely 'conclusive' lol. Often I'm finding the middle ground between opposing suggestions is the most productive route for me. I suppose it's a matter of work habits and the tools at hand is all, I'm finding every single bladesmith does almost every single step in forging a blade at least a little different than the last lol, and no two are alike! That makes it a bit frustrating to learn 'quickly'...but it also brings a person back to learn 'more', every single time =). Cris
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Post by brotherbanzai on Nov 13, 2008 18:55:48 GMT
Just guessing but I would imagine that there are probably particular techniques for forging in the various parts of a Japanese style blade. I assume you've already researched this but it seems like someone probably has a video out on this. Looks like a ton of work. Looks like a lot of fun too!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2008 19:10:02 GMT
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Post by Matt993f.o.d on Nov 13, 2008 22:28:38 GMT
Its always satisfying when you turn out a piece with no hammer marks. I have taken to forging with a domed hammer face, to shift lots of metal, when "rough forging" and then, once I have a profile established, clean it up and flatten the surfaces with a normal flat dressed hammer face, on a separate hammer. Turns out ok, usually. I only thought about this recently, as my last two projects (the latter one still on the way) have had hammer dings that have been tough to grind out, owing to me using an overly domed hammer face; it took this to make me realize I needed to flatten them with a flatter hammer after forging the shape out with the domed face (that moves more metal strike per strike; this way I get the best of both worlds).
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2008 7:06:27 GMT
Well, quick update. Today I finished the sunobe, and forged out my bevels on the blade. Took about four and a half hours all told. I'm absolutely thrilled about how it turned out (not because it's that great...I just expected far worse lol)...but then again, I have no idea WHAT it's supposed to look like before beginning the hand work on it. I definately tried to leave myself room to get out any of my stray hammer marks, etc. I've still got a little bit of straightening to do...but not much to be honest, and I believe it will come out by hand. Here's some pictures. First the Sunobe =) Sunobe - .75" at the Yokote.Sunobe - 1" at the Machi.Overall length of the Sunobe was 25.5". If I'd had a press, mill, or powerhammer I think I could get a full katana blade out of one of these...maybe!For this one, being short...I chose not to put a large amount of profile taper into the blade. Or rather, I chose not to do it in a linear fashion. As you see, the taper starts off slow, then comes up more quickly once you get about 6" from the tip. I think that this will help balance out the long tsuka I plan for it, as well as make it a great cutter. It's not an obnoxious change in rate...just a graceful, smooth acceleration.Thicknesses were pretty even. I'm glad I took the time to work out the process in my head before starting. ANY variance in thickness will wreak ABSOLUTE havoc on your finished, beveled profile.Tang length on the Sunobe was, as you can see...almost exactly 6" long. This left a blade length of a little over 19.25".So there's the sunobe. It came out better than I expected, and taking the time to get that absolutely right paid off HUGE dividends when forging the bevels in. Basically, ANY flaw in your sunobe is magnified and basically promoted to President of the 'Screw Up Your Workflow' Committee in a hurry. The few flaws I DID still have taught me that lesson in a hurry. All in all the bevel forging went very smooth though. Swords seem easier to me than knives...probably because I don't have decent tongs lol, and I can hold a sword by the blade once I get it drawn out long enough. Makes a WORLD of difference not having black (or red, or orange) hot steel flying at you from whatever angle strikes its fancy. Here's some pictures of the blade as it sits: Please note I took a file lightly to the shinogi ji in order to get some contrast for the pictures. There was surprisingly little scale, but what was there resisted the file nicely, and made what looks like a bunch of really high and low spots lol. The blade is actually surprisingly smooth. There are highs and lows, just not that bad.I'll tell you this much...every other heat was a straightening heat. Not just for sori...but to true the spine and edge to each other. The thing wanted to twist...not badly, but enough to give me a headache. The crappy part is it's hard to see hot lol. I found what worked best for me to get rid of the twist was a bench vise, channel locks...and light smacks with the hammer on the parts of the geometry that deformed after straightening. I know it's not perfect, but I think with practice...I could actually get good at this =). For what amounts to my fourth blade, I don't think I did too terribly bad. Here's the critical measurements as things sit. I'm actually amazed at how close I got the bevels by eye. Machi Width - 1.160" Kissaki Width - (at Yokote) 0.95" Tang Width (at Machi) - 0.87" Tang Width (at Butt) - 0.63" Blade Thickness (at Machi) - 0.251" Edge Thickness (at Machi) - 0.146" Mune Thickness (at Machi) - 0.172" Blade Thickness (at Yokote) - 0.194" Edge Thickness (at Yokote) - 0.14" Mune Thickness (at Yokote) - 0.138" Nakago - 6.25" Nagasa - 21.625" Shinogi Ji (at Machi Ura) - 0.492" Shinogi Ji (at Machi Omote) - 0.540" Shinogi Ji (at Yokote Ura) - 0.415" Shinogi Ji (at Yokote Omote) - 0.411" As I said, and as you can see, I left quite a bit of meat on the edge. I did this for three reasons. First, this way I know the material underneath is good, and second, it will be easily salvaged from the random damage my hammer seems to inflict lol. The last reason is so I can completely customize the geometry when draw filing. I'd really like to give this blade niku, instead of the typical production 'flat grind' from the shinogi ji to the edge. There's also plenty of meat at the yokote for me to be able to form a real one. It's forged in (barely) but I figured rather than destroy it by trying to get too too close my first time, I'd give myself a general shape, and file it in properly. Anyhow...not only do I want critique on this...I want it bad enough to practically pay for it lol. Any advice, commentary, props, or general information will be incredibly well appreciated! Some parts of this were an excercise in frustration, but overall, as I said, I'm happy with the outcome. I honestly expected to ruin it. I will say to most beginners (since I know where from I speak now lol), don't try a sword as your fourth. Get some experience with a hammer on short blades. I jumped in a bit deep, and while I think it turned out ok...I could have wasted about $35 in charcoal (5 bags I think), plus roughly 12hrs of work. It still may die in the heat treat too...but we know that's a gamble =). Killing it by inexperience in the bevel forming stage would have sucked badly. Anyhow thanks for following along with my novel here lol. And again, any responses are very much appreciated. Cris
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Post by Dan Davis on Nov 16, 2008 12:38:59 GMT
since you have that nice long flat anvil here is a tip on straightening: get you a couple of oak planks and a 2" pine dowel.
Put the blade between the two planks while hot and hammer on the top plank; Or you can put the blade down on one plank, hold it in place and hammer with your dowel rod.
This is more than enough to move hot metal but the oak is too soft to deform your bevels much if any at all. Plus the smell of burning oak is fairly pleasant.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2008 15:12:30 GMT
Looks very good Chris, very very good. Nice work on the bevels. Take off your top layer of scale with an angle grinder, then begin drawfiling.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2008 20:34:07 GMT
Looking good!
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Post by Matt993f.o.d on Nov 16, 2008 22:32:49 GMT
Some smart work. You can't draw out that much steel and NOT get a feel for the stuff! Seriously, those rail clips must be beasts. +1 for sheer hard graft!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2008 2:00:12 GMT
Some smart work. You can't draw out that much steel and NOT get a feel for the stuff! Seriously, those rail clips must be beasts. +1 for sheer hard graft! LOL thanks Matt! Yeah they're definately a fight. I can only imagine if I'd started with something like 1"x1/4" stock lol. I mean, I'd probably be done by now! Sword would probably be nicer too =p! Anyhow, spent some time with the files tonight. There's still some low spots, but I wasn't trying to finish the preliminary filing. I just wanted a feel for the geometry, to see if it worked out. When I began filing, I was REAL worried lol. The pits seemed a LOT deeper than I remembered, and there were a lot of small surface cracks where scale had gotten into the metal. This made me really nervous after what happened to my first knife with the forging too cold. Turns out though, with an hour or so of filing...all the 'cracks' have filed out, and only a few pits are left. I should be able to clean it up nicely. I wanted to get the base filing done tonight, but I started to get tired lol. So when I noticed my lines becoming a little less crisp...I quit before I messed something up permanently. Turned out the forged in yokote won't be all that bad either. Yes, it will be a fight to keep it during all my filing and polishing, but not as bad as I thought. Anyhow, here's some pictures: Overall blade profile. The flash makes it look like it's sort of warped on the bottom edge, but it's not.These pictures show the edge bevel pretty well. Much more crisp than I expected lol. There's a few parts that are worse, but not bad at all. If you look closely, you can see the shadow of the yokote.These two show the yokote a bit better. Plenty of beef for trimming it down and maintaining my overall shape I think.Anyhow...as I said I was a bit worried at first...but I think it's going to come out pretty well. I hope to have it shaped and clayed by tomorrow evening, then heat treat the evening after. I'm going to make a 55gal heat treat forge/quench tank lol. Yes, that's a forge, AND quench tank. Should work out pretty well I think =). Cris
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2008 3:59:04 GMT
u really have a talent there
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2008 4:07:24 GMT
u really have a talent there Thank you DS, the compliment means a lot. What I've found though is it isn't really a talent so much as an escape lol. I can (or rather, I have to...for safety and piece of mind!) shut my brain off completely. I mean, everything gone except me, the fire, the hammer, and work piece. Makes it really easy to concentrate lol, and I think concentration is the key. I mean believe me, this stuff isn't perfect. The pictures make it look a bit worse than it actually is in hand, but it's not perfect. I just make sure that every single step I take is not going to negatively affect the future steps. Sometimes it works lol, sometimes it doesn't =). Anyhow thank you again. Recognition from you guys is a huge encouragement to do better each time I work on this stuff, and for that I can't thank you enough. Cris
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2008 4:23:26 GMT
Puppy thinks you're awesome.
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Post by Matt993f.o.d on Nov 17, 2008 22:09:12 GMT
Forging is the most fun part of the whole blademaking process. Sometimes it is more fun to use stock that is completely dimensionally different from what you turn it into just to prolong the forging steps. After all, doing it this way really illustrates the freedom afforded by forging your blades; the shapes you can produce from your stock are limited by your imagination!
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