pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Feb 6, 2022 23:08:20 GMT
One final, I hope, post to this thread. The majority of the members sided with the seller. Those that didn’t used the argument that the sword comes from the factory with scabbard and is normally sold by vendors as such, the exception being on request. While sipping this morning’s coffee I thought of this analogy. I’ll reverse the original story by substituting a sword for the scabbard and throw this out as food for thought. True story:
I bought a CS scabbard made for their M1918 Cutlass from a member. I wanted a leather replacement for the steel scabbard that came with my Klewang Cutlass. This member advised me that he had one and gave a price. I then asked if it included the frog and the answer was no. He then agreed to send the frog and upped his price accordingly. I agreed. I received the package with no cutlass. Nearly everybody, if not everybody, knows that CS and its distributors sell that cutlass and scabbard as an unit, a packaged deal. But I didn’t receive the cutlass because that private individual, that SOB, decided to keep the cutlass. I only received what was stated in the transaction, a scabbard w/frog, and yet everyone knows that it came from CS with a cutlass, whether directly or through a distributor. Am justified to give this individual a bad rep as he sent what was bargined for and no more? I think not.
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Post by Kane Shen on Feb 7, 2022 1:38:46 GMT
Yeah if you buy a pre-owned vehicle you would assume it comes with the standard engine, and every other part, unless otherwise specified. You don't need to ask individually about each part whether it is included in the car as a standard package.
If you go buy a pre-owned car engine, you wouldn't assume that the engine will come with a car wrapped around it.
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Feb 7, 2022 7:08:33 GMT
You're not totally wrong, for me it's 51% to 49 % that the private seller didn't do anything wrong here. I think I found the mentioned transaction but I might be wrong of course. There was another sword offered expressly"w/ scabbard" and pictures showing swords with and without scabbard as mentioned in the offer. So in your words I think here was offered a car engine.
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Post by nddave on Feb 7, 2022 13:27:37 GMT
Yeah if you buy a pre-owned vehicle you would assume it comes with the standard engine, and every other part, unless otherwise specified. You don't need to ask individually about each part whether it is included in the car as a standard package. If you go buy a pre-owned car engine, you wouldn't assume that the engine will come with a car wrapped around it. Kind of an ignorant analogy. In no way is a scabbard an equivalent to a car part.... having a car "missing a part" would be like a Sword missing an actual fitting, like for example a Katana without a Habaki or Arming Sword without a pommel! These are parts of the Sword aka car. These are expected on the actual product. A scabbard is more or less the equivalent of a car cover. I've yet to see a new car or even pre-owned car be pushed with a car cover.... but ironically you do see private sales offer car covers, lol! Bottom line if the seller chooses to keep the scabbard or any other actual part of the Sword that's their choice to sell the rest! It is also the BUYER'S responsibility to ask as many questions possible before finalizing the sale. I mean there's a few people who sell Koshirae or bare blades on the the classifieds, should we chew their ass because those bare blades have no tsuka or Koshirae? How about that Tsuba I bought, where's the rest of the Damm Sword!? I feel ripped off!!!...
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Feb 7, 2022 14:59:56 GMT
Yeah if you buy a pre-owned vehicle you would assume it comes with the standard engine, and every other part, unless otherwise specified. You don't need to ask individually about each part whether it is included in the car as a standard package. If you go buy a pre-owned car engine, you wouldn't assume that the engine will come with a car wrapped around it. You have compared sword buying with car buying before. A sword does not equal a car in any way or fashion. But as you keep bringing this up I’ll address your analogy by saying: A car buyer is very foolish if not at least raising the hood, bonnet to the Brits here. Not to mention listening and/or looking for oil leaks, exhaust, etc., but for not at least raising the bonnet. Now days with the Internet some distant transactions take place. And again I must say the buyer would be foolish if not inquiring about the engine, such as mileage on it, burning oil, the last overhaul, etc. Even if the engine was of little or no importance but as it would be reflected in price. In the end if the questions aren’t raised no answer can be expected and the buyer is not justified in assuming all is well. I've not known anyone buying a car without asking questions.
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Post by Kane Shen on Feb 7, 2022 18:17:23 GMT
Kind of an ignorant analogy. In no way is a scabbard an equivalent to a car part.... having a car "missing a part" would be like a Sword missing an actual fitting, like for example a Katana without a Habaki or Arming Sword without a pommel! These are parts of the Sword aka car. These are expected on the actual product. A scabbard is more or less the equivalent of a car cover. I've yet to see a new car or even pre-owned car be pushed with a car cover.... but ironically you do see private sales offer car covers, lol! No it's a perfect analogy. What components are part of a sword as a package depends on the specific product: For a DSA sword, the scabbard is INCLUDED in the PRICE (there is NO way you can order a sword without a scabbard), the scabbard in this case is the same as a pommel or a crossguard. If you state you are selling this product, it is implicitly implied all the parts, including the blade, the grip components and the scabbards are included, UNLESS specified otherwise. For an Albion or Arms & Armor sword, the scabbard is always EXCLUDED from the PRICE of the product. If you order the scabbard from Albion (once upon a time) or A&A, or a third party, it is considered a SEPARATE product. In this case, a buyer should not expect it to come with the product. Conflating the two totally different situations is just shifting the goal post on the fly. The car engine, or the seat, or the wheels are part of every standard car as a product, the car cover is not--you need to purchase it separately, you know it. Bottom line if the seller chooses to keep the scabbard or any other actual part of the Sword that's their choice to sell the rest! It is also the BUYER'S responsibility to ask as many questions possible before finalizing the sale. You keep stating that keeping the scabbard is a RIGHT of the seller. It is not a question whether it is a RIGHT or not. You are selling a product in exchange for money, it is your RESPONSIBILITY to either: - included all the parts that come as a product package--in DSA's case, the sword and the scabbard; and in an Albion's case, the sword, but no scabbard; - specifically disclosing what parts are missing. The price is relevant to the condition and what components are missing. If the buyer accept the facts that some parts are missing and are willing to pay the price, that's the BUYER's prerogative, it is not YOU as a seller's right to sneakily keep some of the parts of a whole product, conveniently not disclosing it and take the buyer's money, and say "well it's your fault as a buyer to trust me by just assuming, so suck it!" Well, you CAN do that, but then you are also liable to be sued, if the buyer so chooses to do so. I mean there's a few people who sell Koshirae or bare blades on the the classifieds, should we chew their ass because those bare blades have no tsuka or Koshirae? How about that Tsuba I bought, where's the rest of the Damm Sword!? I feel ripped off!!!... Now THIS is an ignorant analogy. You are very well aware that a koshira is part of a Japanese sword, a Japanese sword is not part of a koshira. A product titled as a katana WILL include those fittings, unless it's shirasaya, in which case some fittings are not part of the package but the title WILL have to specify it is shirasaya. The point of my original car buying analogy is not that buying a sword is the same as buying a car. It is that a response to pgandy's analogy in that a component is part of a whole, a whole is not part of a component. Lastly, you stated in the previous post that there are a number of things you state in every sale post of yours: about the product's condition, what modifications you have done, if any components are missing. If it doesn't make a difference, then why do you do it? If a shady seller does an equally good job as some of you have characterized here, why bother? Why not tell the buyer that "it's his fault to buy from me and make the wrong assumptions, so suck it!"? It's just the same as doing the job disclosing everything, right?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2022 18:22:06 GMT
It's getting frustrating to see Kane and Dave continually spar on the forum. Can both of you agree to a truce?
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Post by Kane Shen on Feb 7, 2022 18:30:33 GMT
You have compared sword buying with car buying before. A sword does not equal a car in any way or fashion. But as you keep bringing this up I’ll address your analogy by saying: A car buyer is very foolish if not at least raising the hood, bonnet to the Brits here. Not to mention listening and/or looking for oil leaks, exhaust, etc., but for not at least raising the bonnet. Now days with the Internet some distant transactions take place. And again I must say the buyer would be foolish if not inquiring about the engine, such as mileage on it, burning oil, the last overhaul, etc. Even if the engine was of little or no importance but as it would be reflected in price. In the end if the questions aren’t raised no answer can be expected and the buyer is not justified in assuming all is well. I've known anyone buying a car without asking questions. The point of ANY analogy is not to state the two things are completely identical. The point of mentioning the car buying is not saying it is completely the same as buying a sword, it is to show that a component is part of a whole product, a whole product is not part of a component. You asked in the previous post why you should not expect a sheath PLUS a sword when you explicitly buy a sheath. Because in Cold Steel's case, the sheath is part of a sword product. The sheath's price is included in a product that's titled a sword (specifically a cutlass). Not the other way around. The product is titled "cutlass", the product is not titled "a sheath" but happens to come with a sword. In fact, CS sells sheaths for some of their products SEPARATELY, and you know very well when the product is titled "sheath", it doesn't come with the sword. But the product called "Cold Steel 1917 Naval Cutlass" does have the sheath included in the price. A car buyer should do the due diligence, but it doesn't give the seller the right to be shady. It does not make it right for the seller to not disclose the car's missing an engine, just because the buyer didn't do a full inspection. You shouldn't walk into an alley in a dangerous neighborhood alone at night, as a good exercise for your well-being. However, if you got shivved, it doesn't make the perpetuator right. If the police catches the perp, you would not be on trial, the person shivved you would. Would you be happy if the police says to you "well you DID walk into that alley at night, so why don't you just suck it!"?
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Post by Kane Shen on Feb 7, 2022 18:33:42 GMT
It's getting frustrating to see Kane and Dave continually spar on the forum. Can both of you agree to a truce? Yes, I am also frustrated to see how the goal post is kept being shifted on the fly, and situations are twisted, for these prolonged posts, for WHAT exactly? To protect a shady seller that sneakily take part of a priced product out to screw the buyer? Just agree the seller is shady, and that's not how business should be conducted on this forum already!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2022 18:35:32 GMT
It's getting frustrating to see Kane and Dave continually spar on the forum. Can both of you agree to a truce? Yes, I am also frustrated to see how the goal post is kept being shifted on the fly, and situations are twisted, for these prolonged posts, for WHAT exactly? To protect a shady seller that sneakily take part of a priced product out to screw the buyer? Just agree the seller is shady, and that's not how business should be conducted on this forum already! Alternatively, you can both respectfully agree to disagree. Just a suggestion.
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Post by Kane Shen on Feb 7, 2022 18:40:19 GMT
Yes, I am also frustrated to see how the goal post is kept being shifted on the fly, and situations are twisted, for these prolonged posts, for WHAT exactly? To protect a shady seller that sneakily take part of a priced product out to screw the buyer? Just agree the seller is shady, and that's not how business should be conducted on this forum already! Alternatively, you can both respectfully agree to disagree. Just a suggestion. Well I don't actually know what that means. If you are saying that one can accept the fact others can be wrong. Yeah I do accept that. But if someone is keeping coming back to reply that 2+2 = 5, well I'll just have to repeat 2+2 = 4. I'm not trying to force the other person to agree 2+2 = 4, I'm just not gonna be silenced into accepting 2+2 = 5.
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Post by nddave on Feb 7, 2022 18:41:20 GMT
Kind of an ignorant analogy. In no way is a scabbard an equivalent to a car part.... having a car "missing a part" would be like a Sword missing an actual fitting, like for example a Katana without a Habaki or Arming Sword without a pommel! These are parts of the Sword aka car. These are expected on the actual product. A scabbard is more or less the equivalent of a car cover. I've yet to see a new car or even pre-owned car be pushed with a car cover.... but ironically you do see private sales offer car covers, lol! No it's a perfect analogy. What components are part of a sword as a package depends on the specific product: For a DSA sword, the scabbard is INCLUDED in the PRICE (there is NO way you can order a sword without a scabbard), the scabbard in this case is the same as a pommel or a crossguard. If you state you are selling this product, it is implicitly implied all the parts, including the blade, the grip components and the scabbards are included, UNLESS specified otherwise. For an Albion or Arms & Armor sword, the scabbard is always EXCLUDED from the PRICE of the product. If you order the scabbard from Albion (once upon a time) or A&A, or a third party, it is considered a SEPARATE product. In this case, a buyer should not expect it to come with the product. Conflating the two totally different situations is just shifting the goal post on the fly. The car engine, or the seat, or the wheels are part of every standard car as a product, the car cover is not--you need to purchase it separately, you know it. Bottom line if the seller chooses to keep the scabbard or any other actual part of the Sword that's their choice to sell the rest! It is also the BUYER'S responsibility to ask as many questions possible before finalizing the sale. You keep stating that keeping the scabbard is a RIGHT of the seller. It is not a question whether it is a RIGHT or not. You are selling a product in exchange for money, it is your RESPONSIBILITY to either: - included all the parts that come as a product package--in DSA's case, the sword and the scabbard; and in an Albion's case, the sword, but no scabbard; - specifically disclosing what parts are missing. The price is relevant to the condition and what components are missing. If the buyer accept the facts that some parts are missing and are willing to pay the price, that's the BUYER's prerogative, it is not YOU as a seller's right to sneakily keep some of the parts of a whole product, conveniently not disclosing it and take the buyer's money, and say "well it's your fault as a buyer to trust me by just assuming, so suck it!" Well, you CAN do that, but then you are also liable to be sued, if the buyer so chooses to do so. I mean there's a few people who sell Koshirae or bare blades on the the classifieds, should we chew their ass because those bare blades have no tsuka or Koshirae? How about that Tsuba I bought, where's the rest of the Damm Sword!? I feel ripped off!!!... Now THIS is an ignorant analogy. You are very well aware that a koshira is part of a Japanese sword, a Japanese sword is not part of a koshira. A product titled as a katana WILL include those fittings, unless it's shirasaya, in which case some fittings are not part of the package but the title WILL have to specify it is shirasaya. The point of my original car buying analogy is not that buying a sword is the same as buying a car. It is that a response to pgandy's analogy in that a component is part of a whole, a whole is not part of a component. Lastly, you stated in the previous post that there are a number of things you state in every sale post of yours: about the product's condition, what modifications you have done, if any components are missing. If it doesn't make a difference, then why do you do it? If a shady seller does an equally good job as some of you have characterized here, why bother? Why not tell the buyer that "it's his fault to buy from me and make the wrong assumptions, so suck it!"? It's just the same as doing the job disclosing everything, right? But again it is a private sale and as such it is the sellers discretion to carry the responsibility. Again to assume that a Sword will come with a scabbard included simply because the manufacturer includes a scabbard is ridiculous because the private seller is not in fact a licensed vendor or the actual distributor/manufacturer. The private seller has no obligation to match or cover any previous deals, sales, or offers/guarantees made by either the vendor or manufacturer. If that was the case every classified sale would be riddled with red tape so much so that no-one would sell anything. This can be also brought up in pricing and the rule against haggling or bashing sellers for price. If say a seller puts up a $250 retail Windlass sword for $400 it's not our job to bash his sale thread and say he's overpriced or even argue, "hey that was on sale on the Deal of the Day for $160 this weekend!" Maybe the seller did buy it for a $160 on the DoD, is it the seller's obligation to price match the manufacturer/vendor sale? No of course not. Just like it's not the sellers obligation to sell the item "as new" like it came from the manufacturer or vendor. It's the buyer's responsibility to research the sale and find out if the Sword is worth the asking price in the condition it's in. This is about as close to a car to sword analogy as could be given regarding a used car private sale. Fact of the matter is no scabbard was mentioned in the sale thread nor was there any pics of the scabbard. The buyer made a poor assumption that it would be included and rather than simply ask if the scabbard was included left it alone. This why 90% of this thread has had members stating, "lesson to be learned, ask questions before buying." The seller did nothing wrong. He sold a sword as is in the condition he posted via description and pictures in the thread. Could he have been more detailed with his sale thread? Absolutely! Which is the other lesson learned here. Be as detailed as possible if you want the best chance of selling your item and having a happy buyer. Seems like a done deal with a lesson learned on both ends.
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Post by nddave on Feb 7, 2022 18:46:20 GMT
It's getting frustrating to see Kane and Dave continually spar on the forum. Can both of you agree to a truce? I'm not trying to argue or spar I just gave my opinion and replied to one of his posts. He replied back and then I just replied to that. Yea it got a little dragged on and ridiculous in the Balaur Arms thread but at least I tried to end it and move the thread back on topic. Seems the behavior is on Kane as he's not only arguing with me but with the rest of the posters in this thread simply because we don't want to accept his point of view on a matter that has been quelled already. Which shows with his 2+2=5 argument above. Basically like in the Balaur Arms thread he's taking opinions and claiming facts. That's a steep level of arrogance that definitely discourages discussion. I'll stop replying to him if it makes the ecosystem better though but I'm not the only one he's arguing with so maybe I'm not the probelm?
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Post by fester on Feb 7, 2022 18:51:30 GMT
Alternatively, you can both respectfully agree to disagree. Just a suggestion. Well I don't actually know what that means. If you are saying that one can accept the fact others can be wrong. Yeah I do accept that. But if someone is keeping coming back to reply that 2+2 = 5, well I'll just have to repeat 2+2 = 4. I'm not trying to force the other person to agree 2+2 = 4, I'm just not gonna be silenced into accepting 2+2 = 5. Agree to disagree means that both persons will not change their positions and it is pointless to keep arguing the fact since you are not going to get the other person to agree with the argument. So you both agree you disagree on the subject matter and move on That is what it means. Neither side is giving in on their position but it is at this point an exercise in futility to keep trying to convince the other person to agree with your position.
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Post by Kane Shen on Feb 7, 2022 18:54:58 GMT
I'm not trying to argue or spar I just gave my opinion and replied to one of his posts. He replied back and then I just replied to that. Yea it got a little dragged on and ridiculous in the Balaur Arms thread but at least I tried to end it and move the thread back on topic. Seems the behavior is on Kane as he's not only arguing with me but with the rest of the posters in this thread simply because we don't want to accept his point of view on a matter that has been quelled already. I'll stop replying to him if it makes the ecosystem better. You are disagreeing with a number of posters in this thread, including the OP and other buyers familiar with DSA products like Lionhardt. Now that's not a problem, I'm not advocating the forums should be echo chambers, I'm advocating for the opposite. But you do need to employed sound arguments. I don't see how silencing one side of an argument would "make the ecosystem better".
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2022 18:56:09 GMT
Well I don't actually know what that means. If you are saying that one can accept the fact others can be wrong. Yeah I do accept that. But if someone is keeping coming back to reply that 2+2 = 5, well I'll just have to repeat 2+2 = 4. I'm not trying to force the other person to agree 2+2 = 4, I'm just not gonna be silenced into accepting 2+2 = 5. Agree to disagree means that both persons will not change their positions and it is pointless to keep arguing the fact since you are not going to get the other person to agree with the argument. So you both agree you disagree on the subject matter and move on That is what it means. Neither side is giving in on their position but it is at this point an exercise in futility to keep trying to convince the other person to agree with your position. Thank you, fester. No one has to concede anything. You just mutually agree to stop the discourse and move on. I only bring this up because this is the second thread in recent days where the two of you go at each other. I think you both contribute a lot to the forum and you're both better than this. You've both expressed your take on this very clearly, and I think you're dangerously close to ad hominem attacks.
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Post by Kane Shen on Feb 7, 2022 19:28:17 GMT
But again it is a private sale and as such it is the sellers discretion to carry the responsibility. Again to assume that a Sword will come with a scabbard included simply because the manufacturer includes a scabbard is ridiculous because the private seller is not in fact a licensed vendor or the actual distributor/manufacturer. The private seller has no obligation to match or cover any previous deals, sales, or offers/guarantees made by either the vendor or manufacturer. I literally said in the previous post the seller has 2 choices: - either include all the components in the product package; - OR specifically disclose what are missing, and what have been altered. Why are you keep making it sound I said only the first option is permissible??? "Either, or" means you do one of them. This is what I'm talking about, right? Every time there's a direct response to me, I look at it, and I specifically respond to each of the arguments with good faith. And what happens in return?? I find out now the goal post has been conveniently shifted, and my arguments are grossly misrepresented in some way. And it is 100% the seller's obligation to do one of the two options above. If that was the case every classified sale would be riddled with red tape so much so that no-one would sell anything. This can be also brought up in pricing and the rule against haggling or bashing sellers for price. If say a seller puts up a $250 retail Windlass sword for $400 it's not our job to bash his sale thread and say he's overpriced or even argue, "hey that was on sale on the Deal of the Day for $160 this weekend!" Maybe the seller did buy it for a $160 on the DoD, is it the seller's obligation to price match the manufacturer/vendor sale? No of course not. What "riddled with red tape"?? You literally said a few posts before as a seller you explicitly disclose the condition of a product, and what components are altered or missing. Why do you do it if it's just some "red tape"? You are literally arguing against your own practice and you are not seeing it. What does it have to do with haggling the price? Who haggle the price? Who's advocating for the haggling of price? On the other hand, a number of members explicitly said "it is the buyer's fault to not ask". So if you ask, you would be haggling. If you don't ask, it is your fault, because apparently the seller is free to do anything and harvest any component of a product with ZERO OBLIGATION to DISCLOSE. So with the rules some of you are arguing for, the buyer is literally screwed no matter. Just like it's not the sellers obligation to sell the item "as new" like it came from the manufacturer or vendor. It's the buyer's responsibility to research the sale and find out if the Sword is worth the asking price in the condition it's in. This is about as close to a car to sword analogy as could be given regarding a used car private sale. Why are you shifting the goal post again??? Who exactly in this thread is saying " a private seller must shipped new" ? Who said it? List the name of the people who is suggesting that, please! The title of the thread is literally "Opinion on Full Disclosure". It's about disclosure, not about "shipping new", for crying out loud! Fact of the matter is no scabbard was mentioned in the sale thread nor was there any pics of the scabbard. The buyer made a poor assumption that it would be included and rather than simply ask if the scabbard was included left it alone. This why 90% of this thread has had members stating, "lesson to be learned, ask questions before buying." The seller did nothing wrong. He sold a sword as is in the condition he posted via description and pictures in the thread. Could he have been more detailed with his sale thread? Absolutely! Which is the other lesson learned here. Be as detailed as possible if you want the best chance of selling your item and having a happy buyer. Seems like a done deal with a lesson learned on both ends. The fact that no scabbard was mentioned in the sale thread is the problem. The seller cannot alter the state of a product while NOT mentioning it. You may alter the state--take out certain components, use the product, you then HAVE TO disclose it. The scabbard is in the price of the product, if you alter this state, you must disclose. It is 100% the seller's fault not mentioning it. The fact that there are a number of things the buyers should do the optimize the result doesn't mean the seller can just do whatever shady thing to maximize his profit. The seller is obviously in the wrong here. The buyer did not get the product as advertised in that classified which is a DSA sword--a product includes the sword and the scabbard, and no other way around, precisely because the seller didn't disclose it. He should be entitled to a refund and he should return the sword. This situation is similar to the person who bought the new Windlass Balaur Arms sword and got a sword with rattling hilt and grip leather peeling off right out of the box. He isn't experienced and initially tried to fix it himself, while writing a review, and then get called a crazy nut with brain worm on this forum. "Why are you erroneously assuming a sword shouldn't have a rattling hilt and a grip falling apart?? It's YOUR fault!" I don't know why fellow sword buyers on a forum called "Sword Buyers' Guide" would get off so much on mocking other buyers and telling it's their fault and suck it. Sounds more like "Sword Sellers' Guide", or rather than "Guide", "Seller's Protection Racket"!
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Post by Kane Shen on Feb 7, 2022 19:46:34 GMT
I don't want to argue with any of you, as it does seem the people participating in this thread are the good sellers and buyers on top of being good forum members.
Some of you aren't aware that you are literally arguing against your own interests, not just as a buyer--though that's pretty obvious--but also as a seller.
If as you all claimed, sellers have ZERO obligations to do anything, or disclosing anything at all, not only that when you are buying you are always subjected to being screwed royally, but as as seller every potential buyer will be obligated to assume you are a shady seller and you could be lying and hiding anything. It doesn't make the business easier, it makes it harder, for everybody.
I've lost quite a bit money doing business on the classified section of this forum, so have my friends, despite that we have done EVERYTHING right. I don't blame the forum itself, or the community. Private transactions always carry risks. Do business with the most trustworthy and senior members, obviously. As a buyer you always need to be cautious and it's INDEED a good practice to assume nothing, that I agree, but it shouldn't erase sellers' responsibilities in the least.
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Post by nddave on Feb 7, 2022 21:05:16 GMT
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Feb 7, 2022 21:33:49 GMT
Please calm the rhetoric. We're all friends here, keep it civil and in the rules.
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