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Post by fester on Feb 5, 2022 20:23:19 GMT
I have sold many swords on this forum. My rule of them is that I list anything additional with the sword if I have it
If I just have a sword that is what I list. I normally do not comment that I have no scabbard. If I do have a scabbard I always say so and have photos with it.
in this case the seller did not say he had a scabbard. So I would assume he did not. And maybe it did come with a scabbard originally. Maybe it was damaged or lost etc. but he no longer has it. Or he decided to keep it for whatever reason. But if in doubt always ask the seller
Many potential sellers have asked me questions and as a seller I always respond to clear anything up. If you do not ask me I assume the description and photos are good enough.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Feb 5, 2022 20:45:43 GMT
My error. KoA was mentioned in the OP and thought that to be the vendor. However my statement still stands. One vendor cannot be accountable for another’s ad. If an object is not included in the seller’s ad it cannot be assumed to be included on the grounds another seller is offering it. If it is not stated in the contract it does not exist and is faulty to assume that it does. DSA is not a "vendor", it is the owner of the brand, and the product comes from them. They never sell products with scabbards. If you sell a DSA product, it is assumed rightfully it is what DSA originally sells, unless otherwise stated. The manufacturer and vendor or not necessarily the same. In this case the seller had no scabbard to offer nor did he pretend to. Why no scabbard is anybody’s guess, there are several reasons for this. But whatever the reason he had a sword to sell and advertised it as such with no pretence of it being more. Whether it came with or without a scabbard he has the right to sell the sword as such. He made no pretence of offering more. If the buyer assumes that he will get more than what is included in the deal will likely be disappointed.
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Post by Kane Shen on Feb 5, 2022 21:13:11 GMT
DSA is not a "vendor", it is the owner of the brand, and the product comes from them. They never sell products with scabbards. If you sell a DSA product, it is assumed rightfully it is what DSA originally sells, unless otherwise stated. The manufacturer and vendor or not necessarily the same. In this case the seller had no scabbard to offer nor did he pretend to. Why no scabbard is anybody’s guess, there are several reasons for this. But whatever the reason he had a sword to sell and advertised it as such with no pretence of it being more. Whether it came with or without a scabbard he has the right to sell the sword as such. He made no pretence of offering more. If the buyer assumes that he will get more than what is included in the deal will likely be disappointed. If it doesn't come with a scabbard (again not stating it in general, but for DSA specifically, because it does NOT offer sword without scabbard), then it is altered from the original product sold by the brand, he is then legally bound to explicitly disclose both the existence of the alteration, and the specific extent of such alteration. The reasons of such alteration are not relevant. We are not talking about a random brand, we are talking about a specific brand that has the scabbard as the content of any of their packaged products. Otherwise, one can just take the hilt apart and cut off the tang, and sell it without mentioning it. "Hey why are you erroneously assume it has a tang?? It is not shown on the photos."
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Feb 5, 2022 21:25:57 GMT
Did the seller in the OP show anything he didn't deliver?
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Post by Kane Shen on Feb 5, 2022 21:27:05 GMT
Did the seller in the OP show anything he didn't deliver? Yeah a scabbard.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Feb 5, 2022 21:28:44 GMT
Where?
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Post by Kane Shen on Feb 5, 2022 21:29:27 GMT
Of course DSA sells all swords without a scabbard, just ask for it and you will receive your sword without one. The seller does not need to state without scabbard if the picture does not show one. Lets pretend you buy a scap car with no wheels, pictures clearly show no wheels. After you bought you complain...where are the wheels. Is the seller responsible to also state no wheels ? No When did you buy a DSA sword without a scabbard? Which model is it? How much less did you pay for the sword without the scabbard?
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Post by Kane Shen on Feb 5, 2022 21:29:44 GMT
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Feb 5, 2022 21:31:37 GMT
Which post?
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Post by Kane Shen on Feb 5, 2022 21:35:42 GMT
The post where he sells a DSA product, which is a sword with a scabbard. A product is sold at DSA as a sword and a scabbard because they want to make a profit out of the sword, and then they also want to make a profit out of the scabbard. There is no way to order a new product from them without ordering the scabbard. So if one sell a DSA product, it should have everything included, unless disclosed otherwise, because it is an alteration of the original product.
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pgandy
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Posts: 10,296
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Post by pgandy on Feb 5, 2022 21:38:08 GMT
Kane, the only thing that you have convenced me of so far is that you like beating a dead horse.
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Post by Kane Shen on Feb 5, 2022 21:39:51 GMT
Kane, the only thing that you have convenced me of so far is that you like beating a dead horse. So I am beating a dead horse, what are all these guys writing paragraphs after paragraphs down doing?
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Feb 5, 2022 21:40:07 GMT
I'd agree if this was a professional seller, for a private seller I disagree.
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Post by Kane Shen on Feb 5, 2022 21:42:39 GMT
I'd agree if this was a professional seller, for a private seller I disagree. Yeah, it's a shady deal. As a private seller, if he is fine being shady, then I guess there isn't anything you can do about it. The point is, the community should police the behaviors of sellers in our Classifieds section. Once you just allow people bamboozling buyers without consequence, there will be more and more behaviors like this, and it is a disservice to the honest ones.
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Post by Lionhardt on Feb 5, 2022 21:45:55 GMT
Opinion question. I recently bought a DSA sword on the forum. On the DSA site and on the KoA site (and everywhere I've seen it honestly) it ships with a scabbard. It can be sharp or blunt, plain scabbard or with the belt, but sword and scabbard come as a set. The ad did not say, "No scabbard" but neither did it say specifically "scabbard included" and a photo of the scabbard was not included in the ad. So short story long, I was a bit surprised and dismayed when I got the sword sans scabbard. The seller says it was my fault for assuming it was included and I think he should have had full disclosure of the item since it was a special order (he ordered it without to save costs). Since it was a misunderstanding both ways I offered to split the cost of my ordering a replacement including shipping. I haven't heard back. So ... Do I post negative on this guy if he doesn't agree to split the costs or is it my fault for assuming and not noticing the absence of the scabbard and asking in a PM where it was? I'm relatively new here and just wondering if there was an accepted standard of disclosure. A scabbard is always optional, DSA offers all sword with and without a scabbard. As you wrote the seller also posted pictures without a scabbard, why would he take pictures without the scabbard if one is included ? So unfortunately this is only your fault, you should not post a negative feedback. The seller is not responsible for what you MIGHT think is included... I will contest this. A. Coming from someone that has bought from and dealt with DSA a lot, Scabbards are ALWAYS included. There is no way to order it from them from their website and get it without a scabbard. Quite literally, you have to go out of your way to email them directly and ask to buy one without a scabbard. That is the only way to get a sword from DSA without a scabbard. But B. I also bought from the same seller's recent mass sale and mine did not show or mention the scabbard anywhere either, yet mine came with the correct accompanying scabbard. So he was very reasonable assuming the scabbard that always comes with the sword...would come with the sword.
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Post by Lionhardt on Feb 5, 2022 21:56:02 GMT
I completely understand the mistake in the OP, such things happen, happened to me too, but in the end it was my mistake, not the seller's. How is it a mistake of the OP to assume the seller is selling a product as offered by the brand maker? The scabbard is included in the price of the DSA product (not as an option), the buyer is paying for it whether he likes the scabbard (or its price) or not. If the classified is missing a common component, it is the SELLER's responsibility to explicitly state it, not the buyer's responsibility. And I wanted to back Kane Shen up here. What he keeps reiterating is 100% correct. With DSA it IS part of the sword basically. So pictured or not, mentioned or not, rechuch was totally correct in assuming that a scabbard was being shipped with his sword. So yeah rechuch, while negative feedback might not be necessary, I hope you and the seller can come to an agreement on this. He owes you a scabbard.
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Post by Kane Shen on Feb 5, 2022 22:38:19 GMT
How is it a mistake of the OP to assume the seller is selling a product as offered by the brand maker? The scabbard is included in the price of the DSA product (not as an option), the buyer is paying for it whether he likes the scabbard (or its price) or not. If the classified is missing a common component, it is the SELLER's responsibility to explicitly state it, not the buyer's responsibility. And I wanted to back Kane Shen up here. What he keeps reiterating is 100% correct. With DSA it IS part of the sword basically. So pictured or not, mentioned or not, rechuch was totally correct in assuming that a scabbard was being shipped with his sword. So yeah rechuch, while negative feedback might not be necessary, I hope you and the seller can come to an agreement on this. He owes you a scabbard. Thank you! We need to judge the situation individually. Each brand has their way to offer the products. When a seller offers the product altered from the original package, he is responsible of disclosing it. Having said that it's never a bad habit for a buyer to be thorough, and make inquiries, but in this case it's the seller's fault much more so than the buyer's.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Feb 5, 2022 22:52:35 GMT
I think you can expect this from a professional seller but not from a private seller.
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Post by nddave on Feb 6, 2022 0:18:07 GMT
A private sale is a private sale if a scabbard was mentioned to be included or if the seller stated "just bought from the vendor new and now selling" yea I could see if scabbard would be included. But it is in the sellers right to keep the scabbard and not sell it with the sword if thats their choice.
Every sale thread I've done here I've mentioned everything that comes with the sword, scabbard or not, sharpened or not, and any customizations I may have done like grip rewraps etc.
I guess the lesson learned here is never assume and always ask questions.
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Feb 6, 2022 2:16:50 GMT
The error is the OP's. If you don't ask questions, you get what you get. If you don't like it, perhaps you can get a refund. Assuming the seller agrees. But the short answer is ASK Questions.
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