Mikeeman
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Post by Mikeeman on Jun 1, 2021 1:48:11 GMT
Okay, but that didn't answer my question. Like, at all. Is it case hardened and not spring tempered like Scorpion Sword (I'm assuming Chris) said in the post, or is it 1095 and heat treated like described? Why is he saying one thing and you're saying another? Because both things can't simultaneously be true.
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admin
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Post by admin on Jun 1, 2021 1:48:54 GMT
I have no idea where they get their steel from, could have been a mix up in the steel and they didn't get 1095. They should test every blade to see if it will bend this easy before they ship it out. I am in touch with them about this and think that double checking each sword from now on is a great recommendation.
Just to clarify something - they admit that the sword in question had something go wrong and is not representative. Where things seem to have been misconstrued is that this was okay, they were saying that if the replacement is aggressively flex tested it will be much better than the problematic sword, but it will eventually destroy it and is not a good idea..
From what they wrote, they want to video their own tests before they send it and do not recommend that the OP goes out of their way to flex it excessively. Any sword will be ruined if you keep flexing it. |
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Jun 1, 2021 1:53:24 GMT
Mainly they just to need to make sure they won't bent so easily.
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Jun 1, 2021 1:55:55 GMT
Really, really just want to know what he meant by "case hardened", because the process described on the website (1500 degrees, quench, 500 degrees for two hours) should result in a spring temper and has no relation to case hardening.
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Mikeeman
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Post by Mikeeman on Jun 1, 2021 1:56:48 GMT
Really, really just want to know what he meant by "case hardened", because the process described on the website (1500 degrees, quench, 500 degrees for two hours) should result in a spring temper and has no relation to case hardening. That's the point I'm trying to make. |
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Jun 1, 2021 1:58:46 GMT
I'd also suggest he use 80CRV2 or 5160 or 1084 instead of 1095 for these, but that's his choice.
Or even just 1060.
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admin
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Post by admin on Jun 1, 2021 1:59:11 GMT
Okay, but that didn't answer my question. Like, at all. Is it case hardened and not spring tempered like Scorpion Sword (I'm assuming Chris) said in the post, or is it 1095 and heat treated like described? Why is he saying one thing and you're saying another? Because both things can't simultaneously be true. Its made as described but the end result for the Daywalker is clearly NOT a spring temper. I do not make swords so you will have a better idea of how this is possible than I do! What kind of things could cause this (ruling out the base steel, unless HIS supplier is lying to him - and I doubt that very much as it's all intra-USA).
Chris is not lying - he buys 1095 carbon steel, the process he uses is transparent, and yes - he did make a bad one (clearly). He wants to replace it but does not think it will flex like the OP wants it to - and will of course eventually fail if flexed too much. |
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admin
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Post by admin on Jun 1, 2021 2:06:36 GMT
Really, really just want to know what he meant by "case hardened", because the process described on the website (1500 degrees, quench, 500 degrees for two hours) should result in a spring temper and has no relation to case hardening. It SHOULD but it HASN'T in this case, so what could be the cause of that? Could there be something wrong with his furnace. Is the steel too thick?
I will ask them about this and report back.
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Mikeeman
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Post by Mikeeman on Jun 1, 2021 2:07:47 GMT
Then why did he say it was case hardened and not spring tempered? And the way he described it in his post (again, if that was Chris) it acted exactly like a case hardened blade should.
There's a missing link, and I'm trying to find it. Because the numbers aren't adding up here. Either your post is wrong, or his is wrong as they literally contradict each other.
I've never dealt with Intra-USA, so I'm not familiar with them. I've also never even heard of them. Pretty well everyone I know gets steel from NJSB, and if not from there then Alpha, USA Knife maker, Pop's, and other well known knife supply sites
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Jun 1, 2021 2:14:32 GMT
Does Intra USA have a website, I could find nothing on a search.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2021 2:16:32 GMT
Then why did he say it was case hardened and not spring tempered? And the way he described it in his post (again, if that was Chris) it acted exactly like a case hardened blade should. There's a missing link, and I'm trying to find it. Because the numbers aren't adding up here. Either your post is wrong, or his is wrong as they literally contradict each other. I've never dealt with Intra-USA, so I'm not familiar with them. I've also never even heard of them. Pretty well everyone I know gets steel from NJSB, and if not from there then Alpha, USA Knife maker, Pop's, and other well known knife supply sites Kinda sounds like he just called what the result of a botched hardening "case hardening" to describe what he think happened instead. It's what Im getting from it anyway |
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admin
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Post by admin on Jun 1, 2021 2:22:12 GMT
Then why did he say it was case hardened and not spring tempered? And the way he described it in his post (again, if that was Chris) it acted exactly like a case hardened blade should. There's a missing link, and I'm trying to find it. Because the numbers aren't adding up here. Either your post is wrong, or his is wrong as they literally contradict each other. I've never dealt with Intra-USA, so I'm not familiar with them. I've also never even heard of them. Pretty well everyone I know gets steel from NJSB, and if not from there then Alpha, USA Knife maker, Pop's, and other well known knife supply sites Sorry, by 'Intra-USA' I meant 'inside the USA' - not a company name.
I am starting to suspect this is a 'case' of poorly worded terminology (pardon the pun). Here is a video showing the end result of the tempering and heat treatment process:
This is what the OP will receive. If he tries to bend it repeatedly it will eventually be destroyed.
So in short, I think that the 'case hardening' explanation was an error of terminology. Their swords should deform rather than snap or shatter on a bad cut, and I think that is what they were trying to get at.
Long story short, the replacement should be fine and something clearly went wrong with the first sword.
Thanks, - Admin
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Jun 1, 2021 2:22:39 GMT
Then why did he say it was case hardened and not spring tempered? And the way he described it in his post (again, if that was Chris) it acted exactly like a case hardened blade should. There's a missing link, and I'm trying to find it. Because the numbers aren't adding up here. Either your post is wrong, or his is wrong as they literally contradict each other. I've never dealt with Intra-USA, so I'm not familiar with them. I've also never even heard of them. Pretty well everyone I know gets steel from NJSB, and if not from there then Alpha, USA Knife maker, Pop's, and other well known knife supply sites Kinda sounds like he just called what the result of a botched hardening "case hardening" to describe what he think happened instead. It's what Im getting from it anyway I'm not seeing it this way. |
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admin
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Post by admin on Jun 1, 2021 2:25:51 GMT
I think it is semantics - the video speaks 1000 words...
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Mikeeman
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Post by Mikeeman on Jun 1, 2021 2:43:48 GMT
"However the testing has not to date included any flex tests as our swords are case hardened, and so while they are designed to flex to a certain degree they are not spring tempered."
That will not produce what happens in the video. And contradicts the process you described.
"Our longer blades such as the Tactical Jian, Daywalker, and Dark Ninjato are tempered to have hard wearing edges with a softer, shock absorbent core to prevent breakage or shattering. This means that the longer blades are not designed to be flexed excessively and if used against a target they cannot cut through, are designed to deform rather than shatter or snap. By their nature the longer swords are not designed to flex and spring back. It would be the same as flex testing a traditional Katana - they would ALL take a set, but that does not mean that they are bad swords."
The process you described would not produce these results. And contradicts what Scorpion said.
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AJGBlack
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Post by AJGBlack on Jun 1, 2021 2:47:04 GMT
I think it is semantics - the video speaks 1000 words... I'm sorry, Paul but how do you get a semantic issue from this: "As you know, most of the swords we make are quite stout, and are tested destructively before a new model is released. However the testing has not to date included any flex tests as our swords are case hardened, and so while they are designed to flex to a certain degree they are not spring tempered." It says in Scorpion's post specifically that they don't spring temper, they case harden. This is the sticking point. I can appreciate that you want to defend a maker for whatever reason. But first, it's not a witch hunt to call out something that's hinky and doesn't add up. Second, maybe poke Scorpion Swords to clarify rather than stand in? It really looks odd for you, a neutral party, to lay out and speak for them when it's their issue. |
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Post by Kane Shen on Jun 1, 2021 2:47:58 GMT
Well, if it is 1095, and it was heat treated in the way described, why was there a post made saying it was case hardened and not spring tempered and that they didn't think the buyer would be happy with a replacement because they will all be like that? I think because it was understood that the replacement sword would be flexed over a knee - and that this kind of destructive testing is not good for any blade..
"doing flex test ruin ur blade, period." "My anecdotal experience: manually bending the sword will cause damage. Flex from normal handling and cutting with good alignment will not." "Proof videos may give some consumers the false impression that those feats can be performed without damaging the sword. What a flex test in a bench vise really shows is that they were able to perform that test, once, without catastrophic and dangerous blade breakage. The sword id now compromised. " etc, etc
Hi, Paul. Thanks for the explanations. There seems to be a recent escalation regarding to some of the latest models. In the Facebook group, I recall seeing at least 3 persons giving testimony of the blade of the newer models including the Daywalker taking a set after failing to cut bottles (Troy's knee bending came only after the bend taking place at test cutting). While this can be the case sometimes to differentially hardened swords with much longer blades, it seems rare on shorter sword with such a stout profile, made by Scorpion Swords. Another customer of them shared that his sword arrived with an obvious warp out of the box, and the bevel is only half the depth of what's being advertised--we all see it in the photos and it's nowhere near being acceptable. From the photos and the descriptions of their sword-making process that you shared, it would seem like a regular quenching and heat treatment of 1095, nothing really supporting the earlier claim of "case hardening". I own one of the swords they make, and while I cannot verify if it's indeed 1095 (which seems a reasonable choice for short blades), I can tell at least the edge is indeed hard as it's more time-consuming to sharpen than many of my other swords made of 6150 and 5160. It is also rather rigid, but that's expected for a 17" blade with a uniform thickness of 5mm, an absence of distal taper and shallow bevel. The Daywalker seems to be heat treated up to tang from your photo, so it's everybody's guess why it would take a set just from cutting water bottles, as it also features the usual shallow primary bevel ground from a thick stock on all Scorpion Swords, without a full flat or hollow ground from a central ridge or anything. I also want to see this get resolved. Earlier in one of our members' ninjato review, somebody asked if anyone knows where to buy a ninjato specifically without any distal tapering. After some exchanges during which I tried to persuade him the distal tapering is the trait of a properly made sword, he was adamant in his request. So I recommended the Doomsday Ninjato, of which I described as not going to be impressive in handling and cutting performance but would at least be durable. After he shared the warp out-of-the-box on that Doomsday Ninjato, I somehow feel personally responsible for making a poor recommendation. |
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admin
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Post by admin on Jun 1, 2021 3:05:52 GMT
Its clear that the original explanation used the wrong terminology - and this thread has helped to uncover this. 'Case hardening' is not the correct term, and I say it is all semantics because the video shows the swords CAN flex appropriately when well heat treated, and that the OP's sword was clearly defective.
Where it started to dip into weirdness was I think because they were worried that the sword would be flexed abusively beyond what it was designed to do.
With regards to quality dropping recently, that's not impossible. For a while there, Scorpion was sent more orders than they could handle and so the chances of less than stellar examples going out will also increase with the general increase in volume, however Scorpion always go the extra mile for their customers - even this is an example as they are making a new sword and not asking for the return of the defective one.
If we ignore the semantic error about case hardening, and they admit that this is the wrong term in hindsight, what we have is a description of how they make their swords and a video showing that they flex appropriately. But if you want to try and give it a permanent set, you will succeed as the swords will always tend to deform if deliberately flexed beyond their limitations rather than snap - and this property was incorrectly described as 'case hardening'.
The OPs sword was badly tempered by comparison and will be fixed. Still curious as to what step was missed or how the original sword came out though.
So in short, it seems case hardening was the wrong description - they are spring tempered, but not designed to be flexed excessively (no sword is)... I think that is why things have gone South.
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AJGBlack
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Post by AJGBlack on Jun 1, 2021 3:13:11 GMT
Then why did Scorpion say that they were NOT spring tempered? That's my sticking point. I get what you're saying, but you're contradicting Scorpion. Let them speak for themselves.
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Post by Lord Newport on Jun 1, 2021 3:13:31 GMT
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