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Post by Kane Shen on May 31, 2021 22:35:17 GMT
Are all Scorpion swords case hardened, or did you mean just the longer bladed ones like the Daywalker and the tactical Jian are case hardened? I have an Orcish cleaver from you and I would like to know. Doubt any of them are just case harden, just trying for an excuse to a bad treatment. Case hardening isn't easy to do and them is on good reason to use it on a sword blade. Like some else said on here case hardening only goes for an fraction on an inch like about 1/16in maybe a little bit more. Don't fall for this bull. Yeah it’s tough to know whether you would remove the hardened case when you grind the bevel, so it’s curious why anyone would bother, especially with such short and thick blades with shallow bevels. |
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Post by Mikeeman on May 31, 2021 22:44:31 GMT
Yet another contradiction. If it's 1095, there is absolutely no reason to case harden it. The only reason you would case harden something is to add carbon to it. 1095 already has plenty of carbon. So it's either mild, and needs carbon added to it via case hardening, or it's 1095 that is just annealed from somewhere like NJSB or Admiral. It can't be both.
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on May 31, 2021 22:50:05 GMT
Yet another contradiction. If it's 1095, there is absolutely no reason to case harden it. The only reason you would case harden something is to add carbon to it. 1095 already has plenty of carbon. So it's either mild, and needs carbon added to it via case hardening, or it's 1095 that is just annealed from somewhere like NJSB or Admiral. It can't be both. People buy these thinking they can cut and pry with them, but what good are they at prying if they are going to bend so easily. |
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Post by Kane Shen on May 31, 2021 23:24:17 GMT
Yet another contradiction. If it's 1095, there is absolutely no reason to case harden it. The only reason you would case harden something is to add carbon to it. 1095 already has plenty of carbon. So it's either mild, and needs carbon added to it via case hardening, or it's 1095 that is just annealed from somewhere like NJSB or Admiral. It can't be both. Hi Mike, are you the one competing on Forged in Fire with the flamberge halberd? |
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Post by Mikeeman on May 31, 2021 23:26:52 GMT
Yet another contradiction. If it's 1095, there is absolutely no reason to case harden it. The only reason you would case harden something is to add carbon to it. 1095 already has plenty of carbon. So it's either mild, and needs carbon added to it via case hardening, or it's 1095 that is just annealed from somewhere like NJSB or Admiral. It can't be both. Hi Mike, are you the one competing on Forged in Fire with the flamberge halberd? Probably? It was called a quinglong ji. Not sure if that's what you're referring to, but if it is, yes that was me. That thing was a nightmare to make. |
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Post by Kane Shen on May 31, 2021 23:39:02 GMT
Hi Mike, are you the one competing on Forged in Fire with the flamberge halberd? Probably? It was called a quinglong ji. Not sure if that's what you're referring to, but if it is, yes that was me. That thing was a nightmare to make. Ahh, I remember it. In Chinese it literally means “azure-dragon halberd”. With the flamberge blade and all that hooks and spikes, yeah it’s a challenging piece. You must know your stuff!👍 |
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Mikeeman
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Post by Mikeeman on May 31, 2021 23:41:57 GMT
There are people who know a whole lot more than me. And I try to learn as much as I can from them. Just trying my best to spread good and accurate info.
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on May 31, 2021 23:46:11 GMT
Hi Mike, are you the one competing on Forged in Fire with the flamberge halberd? Probably? It was called a quinglong ji. Not sure if that's what you're referring to, but if it is, yes that was me. That thing was a nightmare to make. LACERATE DECAPITATE Seriously, great work on that thing. Looked very hard to make. |
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Post by Mikeeman on May 31, 2021 23:52:18 GMT
Thanks! 😁
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admin
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Post by admin on Jun 1, 2021 0:32:42 GMT
Woooooooooooooooooooooooow.... In my 10+ years as a member on this forum, I have never seen such a straight up ripoff. You guys have your head up your rear end if you think sending that was any kind of excuse for your blades. How are you even a business? So, for anyone who can't see why their description is hot garbage, let me break it down for you. And this is coming from someone who is a long time blade maker, and been a full time smith for the last 3 years.So, for starters, there's no way in the deep fiery afterlife that they are case hardening their blades. There's just no reason to. The time it takes to even do that in the first place is far longer than it takes to just heat treat a high carbon blade. And it is literally the worst option for hardening a blade. As soon as you put an edge on it, it's going to cut down below the hardened surface. So you end up with basically just a mild steel blade. So what they are selling is literally mild steel swords. Secondly, lets talk design. To make up for their oversight (or lack thereof) in the heat treatment department and steel choice, they overbuild the ever living urinary liquid out of them. Which they openly admitted in the comment they posted. They are completely okay with selling mild steel, overbuilt blades, and then completely skate the blame with "Oh, they're supposed to be like that." No. No they aren't. No bladesmith in the history of ever would put out trash like that, as overbuilding a blade meant using more steel. Speaking of smithing, do you really expect me to believe that ONE guy in the US is forging these? For the prices you're selling them at? Yeah, that's not gonna happen. It is worth absolutely nobody's time to forge and sell swords that are made of mild steel. It's a waste of time, it's a waste of money, and that's a ton of work. And being as the swords are "made in batches" at the volume that is put out, there's absolutely no way one person in the US is doing all that and actually making a living. Lastly, Jason is just lying. He's not "designing" (if you can call it that) a blade to be good. He's designing them to try to not take damage, and that's it. In fact, on this site's Facebook group, he had the audacity to post a video where his blade took "no damage" and then proceeded to say that it was easily brought back to an edge with an angle grinder. So did it take damage or not? If it didn't, he wouldn't have to use a grinder. And further driving home the point that they are overweight, mild steel excuses for swords that are definitely not forged in the US. And they're probably just regurgitating whatever the actual manufacturer told them when they said there was a problem with what they were selling. In fact, when I called him on his contradiction, I was (shocker...) banned from the FB group. That I personally used to admin, and stepped down because I didn't like where SBG was heading. I'd even wager the chances of me getting banned here are pretty high just for posting this. Which is incredibly disappointing as someone who's been here so long, and my entire bladesmithing career started right here after poking around in the blade making subsection.It's been probably years since I've posted here, and I'm really sad it had to be this I had to post. Just don't buy their blades, and let's stop letting "companies" like this ruin our market by selling inexcusable blades and telling people that it's okay and it's supposed to be like that. That's just taking advantage of people who don't know any better. Let's do better as a community and not let these things exist.Sincerely, Spicy Mike Forged in Fire Champion I have bolded and highlighted some major issues with the tone of this post - we state many times that it is okay to scrutinize a company or its products here, but only if it is done respectfully.
Calling a fellow sword makers products 'hot garbage', 'straight up ripoff', 'inexcusable blades', 'Just don't buy their blades' etc is not okay..!
The technique that they use to temper and harden their blades is explained in detail: "The blade is heated to approximately 1500 degrees, until it becomes non magnetic and then quenched in oil. The 2nd step is Heat Tempering, which consists of heating the steel to 500 degrees for 2 hours, and letting it air cool. This makes for a Rockwell Hardness of approximately 59."
As a bladesmith yourself, it would be better to explore any issues or limitations of that technique and to determine what effect the published process would have on the steel because the recipe is out in the open for all to see and comment on.
A quick breakdown of the process - starts by cutting out a blank of the sword in question from 1095 carbon steel:
It is then ground to shape:
The blade is then hardened and heat treated - this is what it looks like straight after the process:
Then it is finished off and completed:
Stats: Blade Length: 20" Blade Width: 2 1/2" Handle Length: 7" Handle Width: 1" Weight: 2.9lbs Point of Balance: 2.5" from guard
The whole process is transparent - so here is a good place to start any genuine criticism or feedback on the process on how it might effect swords of different lengths and thicknesses. After all, a process that works well for one sword will not necessarily work well on another and here is a good opportunity to discuss this as we wait to see what will happen with the original order and how the OP decides to respond.
At the end of the day, Chris is a good guy and he has a small family run business that has been going for 13 years and has many satisfied customers, some of which are here (indeed, we had some swords made for the Legendary Swords competition a few years back) and to date only the OP and one other person who actually own one have chimed in. Rather than attack someone and try to drive them out of business, how about we discuss it in a mature and intelligent way to find out the strengths and weaknesses of his design and technique? While this particular model may indeed not be up to expectation and may need to be reconsidered, let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater and apply broad strokes to the entire business like this..
No one will be banned from what has been said so far, but let's not turn this into another witch-hunt. The discussion should continue - but let's try to examine it based on all the facts, examine it across their longer and shorter sword designs, and give them a chance to improve their product. If they don't take the feedback on board or try to come up with some excuses, that's a different story.
But please do not slam other sword makers here - especially as in this case they WANT To make it right for the OP and if a new direction is needed, let's try to elevate what they do rather than try to force them out of business and off the forum (as a 'competitor' you may not want to help and I understand that, but if you wish to criticize, do it constructively or at least neutrally) ..
This is a great opportunity to improve what is on offer for the community and work with a receptive sword maker, not to try and destroy someones life work.Chris is trying to fix this for the OP - but the tone is like he has abandoned the customer and that is not what has happened or how he operates..
Thanks. - Admin
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Post by Mikeeman on Jun 1, 2021 0:46:57 GMT
Then that isn't case hardening... Too many things don't add up. I understand you have an interest in protecting one of your store branded manufactures, but there are just too many contradictions. It can't be 1095 and need case hardened. It can't be case hardened, and be heat treated in the manner you described above. It can't have been heat treated in the manner you described above and then bend like many have experienced and complained about. This can't be a widespread issue and also be a one time thing. A blade can't have "not taken damage" and yet still need repair. You basically just reinforced that something somewhere isn't right.
And they are not a "competitor" of mine. I don't do production runs, I don't really do swords, and I also specialize in kitchenware. So unless they start making chef knives, we really aren't in the same market. So I'm not saying this in the interest of getting ahead of any business competition. And I have no idea what kind of guy Chris is, but clearly somebody somewhere doesn't understand heat treatment, and an email that said "yeah, our blades are supposed to do that" was not the move to make.
Also, I don't really know when I became a M&V. I guess that's a new thing.
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Jun 1, 2021 0:59:18 GMT
Mikeeman you are not listed as a M&V, I am. I do agree with you I looked up his treat process it doesn't add up. The main thing I see he quench to hot for 1095, but this wouldn't make the blades bend. Tempering at 500 degrees would give more of a spring tempering. With his process the blades should not bend. I just see excuses to cover up a bad blade. Should have just attempted something went wrong in the heat treat and replaces the blade. Like you I am not in the same market as Scorpion swords, I won't make these kind of swords anymore.
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admin
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Post by admin on Jun 1, 2021 1:05:58 GMT
Then that isn't case hardening... Too many things don't add up. I understand you have an interest in protecting one of your store branded manufactures, but there are just too many contradictions. It can't be 1095 and need case hardened. It can't be case hardened, and be heat treated in the manner you described above. It can't have been heat treated in the manner you described above and then bend like many have experienced and complained about. This can't be a widespread issue and also be a one time thing. A blade can't have "not taken damage" and yet still need repair. You basically just reinforced that something somewhere isn't right. And they are not a "competitor" of mine. I don't do production runs, I don't really do swords, and I also specialize in kitchenware. So unless they start making chef knives, we really aren't in the same market. So I'm not saying this in the interest of getting ahead of any business competition. And I have no idea what kind of guy Chris is, but clearly somebody somewhere doesn't understand heat treatment, and an email that said "yeah, our blades are supposed to do that" was not the move to make. Also, I don't really know when I became a M&V. I guess that's a new thing. It was heat treated in this way and it did bend.. I do recall mention that the heat treatment furnace he uses is fairly short and works well for the shorter blades but we may have well identified a problem on the longer ones and so this thread can be used to discuss and hopefully rectify this for the OP and also for the line generally.
Here is a picture of a Daywalker sword after heat treat:
I truly hope that this thread produces a positive result because it has the potential to do so rather than to devolve into a Witch Hunt. The problem is that once a very negative tone starts up, it can and usually does bring out the worst in people - and the instinct to attack someone who appears vulnerable is very distasteful..
I hope that the discussion from here will be suggestions on alternative heat treats, alternative design or otherwise ways to try and improve rather than drive someone into the ground.
Thanks, - Admin
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Post by admin on Jun 1, 2021 1:13:21 GMT
Mikeeman you are not listed as a M&V, I am. I do agree with you I looked up his treat process it doesn't add up. The main thing I see he quench to hot for 1095, but this wouldn't make the blades bend. Tempering at 500 degrees would give more of a spring tempering. With his process the blades should not bend. I just see excuses to cover up a bad blade. Should have just attempted something went wrong in the heat treat and replaces the blade. Like you I am not in the same market as Scorpion swords, I won't make these kind of swords anymore. They admitted the sword was not up to scratch - but were concerned that if a heap of people will be invited around to 'flex test to destruction' it would not meet expectation and just destroy the sword. As we all know, if you flex a sword to its limit, you have weakened it dramatically. It is good that the OP flexed it and found an issue and the issue needs to be resolved. Personally I think that the Daywalker sword just needs a redesign as while the OP may have received a bad one, the good ones need to be better to meet customer exceptions.
Hope that cooler heads will prevail here.
- Admin
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Jun 1, 2021 1:13:43 GMT
If he hasn't got the proper equipment to do longer swords he shouldn't be making them. By your picture it looks like it was at least tempered all the way into the tang. If so it shouldn't have bend like it did and was so easy to bend.
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Post by Mikeeman on Jun 1, 2021 1:20:41 GMT
Well, then it isn't 1095 and is, in fact, a low carbon steel that needs case hardened. There's the answer.
My suggestion to improve would be to actually use 1095. Might I suggest ordering from New Jersey Steel Baron?
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admin
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Post by admin on Jun 1, 2021 1:29:17 GMT
Well, then it isn't 1095 and is, in fact, a low carbon steel that needs case hardened. There's the answer. My suggestion to improve would be to actually use 1095. Might I suggest ordering from New Jersey Steel Baron? They use 1095 carbon steel and how they temper it has already been discussed. Its not the steel - so what went wrong?
I don't think suggesting that they are lying about the steel they use is very helpful..
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Post by Mikeeman on Jun 1, 2021 1:35:13 GMT
Well, if it is 1095, and it was heat treated in the way described, why was there a post made saying it was case hardened and not spring tempered and that they didn't think the buyer would be happy with a replacement because they will all be like that?
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Post by admin on Jun 1, 2021 1:40:39 GMT
Well, if it is 1095, and it was heat treated in the way described, why was there a post made saying it was case hardened and not spring tempered and that they didn't think the buyer would be happy with a replacement because they will all be like that? I think because it was understood that the replacement sword would be flexed over a knee - and that this kind of destructive testing is not good for any blade..
"doing flex test ruin ur blade, period." "My anecdotal experience: manually bending the sword will cause damage. Flex from normal handling and cutting with good alignment will not." "Proof videos may give some consumers the false impression that those feats can be performed without damaging the sword. What a flex test in a bench vise really shows is that they were able to perform that test, once, without catastrophic and dangerous blade breakage. The sword id now compromised. " etc, etc
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Jun 1, 2021 1:42:29 GMT
I have no idea where they get their steel from, could have been a mix up in the steel and they didn't get 1095. They should test every blade to see if it will bend this easy before they ship it out. I know I do a small flex test on every sword I make, that being said I could still have a bad one slip through. Not going to tell the customer it was designed to bend and refuse a refund or replacement.
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