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Post by RufusScorpius on Feb 1, 2020 12:20:01 GMT
Myself and markus313. Look for the official announcement on this forum room.
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Feb 1, 2020 13:22:39 GMT
Me too! I'm going to be traveling a long way to do this, but I have always believed in "put up or shut up". After the vids are posted I reserve the right to criticize others forever and always because i earned it. I will make a new thread and an official announcement later today.
semprini its you two !! Did not realize lol
Yep when I post a training segment ( when i'm asked, it would be bad manners otherwise ) I expect a damn good roasting, don let me down. Yeah, go ahead and post your training segment so we can see *real speed*.
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Post by paulmuaddib on Feb 1, 2020 13:24:14 GMT
semprini its you two !! Did not realize lol
Yep when I post a training segment ( when i'm asked, it would be bad manners otherwise ) I expect a damn good roasting, don let me down. Yeah, go ahead and post your training segment so we can see *real speed*. I’ll second this.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Feb 1, 2020 14:25:15 GMT
You never need to wait to be asked to post a video. Nobody asked for mine. I've posted a few here and there already. Most everyone else has also.
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Post by MOK on Feb 1, 2020 15:40:26 GMT
Indeed, no need to be shy!
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Post by RaylonTheDemented on Feb 1, 2020 15:55:52 GMT
Me too! I'm going to be traveling a long way to do this, but I have always believed in "put up or shut up". After the vids are posted I reserve the right to criticize others forever and always because i earned it. I will make a new thread and an official announcement later today.
semprini its you two !! Did not realize lol
Yep when I post a training segment ( when i'm asked, it would be bad manners otherwise ) I expect a damn good roasting, don let me down. Will look, see if I can find a couple.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Feb 1, 2020 16:43:17 GMT
Blocking? Curious what you mean by it? The parry One of the most annoying things to see when watching two swordsmen. Ok in fencing the parry/reposte is a core move, thats cos in fencing the wrist is the primary element in achieving a thrust and is fast ! Also fencers are fighting at greater distance ( single handed ) so have more time to react, more time to find the other blade in a parry. A parry/reposte is just not effective at full speed with 2 handed technique ( Im a boken guy ), or to be precise with the milliseconds one has, its better to try and get a telling cut in.
Exception to this is attacking the opponents blade, the crucial difference there is, that one is initiating NOT reacting..
Hence, only consider a parry when you f**k up, when one is out of position, over extended, moving backward, cornered, when you cant bring the fight forward.
All the above only applies at SPEED, not the speed of the video guys, real speed.
If anyone is interested I will post a training clip , then you can see some real speed
I have to say I disagree with the use of the parry as you consider it, and your considerations on why and when it is effective/ineffective. However, I learned longsword for only 2 years, stopped, and am mainly studying sabre and being taught rapier. Parrying works very differently then how you say in those two systems dependant on what treatise or manual you are studying. I do distinctly remember parries in longsword though - and not only in "oh semprini" moments. There is more binding and winding but the swords must interact for that to happen. If my opponent throws an oberhau and I go into a hanging guard to parry and riposte with a zwerchau, I think I would call this a parry riposte without being a panic movement. I am curious as to what you mean by "its better to try and get a telling cut in". Would this be something like a time cut?
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Post by vecna808 on Feb 1, 2020 19:51:49 GMT
The parry One of the most annoying things to see when watching two swordsmen. Ok in fencing the parry/reposte is a core move, thats cos in fencing the wrist is the primary element in achieving a thrust and is fast ! Also fencers are fighting at greater distance ( single handed ) so have more time to react, more time to find the other blade in a parry. A parry/reposte is just not effective at full speed with 2 handed technique ( Im a boken guy ), or to be precise with the milliseconds one has, its better to try and get a telling cut in. Exception to this is attacking the opponents blade, the crucial difference there is, that one is initiating NOT reacting.. Hence, only consider a parry when you f**k up, when one is out of position, over extended, moving backward, cornered, when you cant bring the fight forward. All the above only applies at SPEED, not the speed of the video guys, real speed. If anyone is interested I will post a training clip , then you can see some real speed I have to say I disagree with the use of the parry as you consider it, and your considerations on why and when it is effective/ineffective. However, I learned longsword for only 2 years, stopped, and am mainly studying sabre and being taught rapier. Parrying works very differently then how you say in those two systems dependant on what treatise or manual you are studying. I do distinctly remember parries in longsword though - and not only in "oh semprini" moments. There is more binding and winding but the swords must interact for that to happen. If my opponent throws an oberhau and I go into a hanging guard to parry and riposte with a zwerchau, I think I would call this a parry riposte without being a panic movement. I am curious as to what you mean by "its better to try and get a telling cut in". Would this be something like a time cut As I said things in fencing ( rapier, eppe, and even sabre ) are different ( IMHO ), the parry/reposte is not only effective but arguably the core of those forms ( like a jab in boxing ) . That to me, is because the swords are lighter, the style is 1 handed ( more space between the opponents ), and the wrist is the main driver of motion in a parry. All this equates to being able to meet the oncoming sword with a clean parry , with reaction time factored in, and most important of all having the time to figure out, and not bite at feints. When you opponent throws a whatever, its DISTANCE that determines weather you get hit, it is distance that is your parry. Its not his sword you got to worry about, its his feet So he throws, move just out of the way, then come back in with speed and force, thats what I mean by telling cut, or at least be looking for that sort of thing rater than the block, which has a shed load of ways of going horribly wrong
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Post by vecna808 on Feb 1, 2020 20:17:22 GMT
Indeed, no need to be shy!
Ok here goes, first time at recording s**t, and very first time posting a vid, so dont expect any production values
So rip away guys , I think Im fast, but pleased to be proved wrong
This is about 70% , but to be honest pushing out that extra 30% is getting harder and harder as I go past 52 years of age.
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Post by markus313 on Feb 1, 2020 20:42:23 GMT
"Speed is not part of the true Way of strategy. Speed implies that things seem fast or slow, according to whether or not they are in rhythm. Whatever the Way, the master of strategy does not appear fast."
Musashi Miyamoto: A BOOK OF FIVE RINGS
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Post by MOK on Feb 1, 2020 21:05:55 GMT
Well, I mean... I have no idea what the imaginary opponent is doing, there, so I have no way to judge how sound or successful your actions are.
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Post by vecna808 on Feb 1, 2020 21:37:16 GMT
"Speed is not part of the true Way of strategy. Speed implies that things seem fast or slow, according to whether or not they are in rhythm. Whatever the Way, the master of strategy does not appear fast."
Musashi Miyamoto: A BOOK OF FIVE RINGS
as much as I respect MM, ( and connor in the UFC, a quote after taking out Aldo with 1 punch "timing beats speed, and precision beats power" ) l do not want to be, or need to be a master of strategy. There are other ways to a kill, there are other Kensei.
Plus MM was NEVER in a "fair" fight , he would happily kill you while you were having a semprini ( his first duel, beat the guy to death with a 7 ft. Staff, before the idiot even got his toothpick out ! ). Lol, I believe that what he is refering to when he states "master of strategy "
My favourite quote from a obscure, unstable , but equally deadly master " speed kills "
I am grade 1 at the mo, by time I get back to grade 3 ( which have been in the past ), I am going to be much to fast to react to, you strategise all you want, if you can not go first, your dead
Things change a lot if wearing armor, using shields, fighting in groups etc, I am talking pure zero/light aromor and identical weapons ( basically a fair fight )
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Post by markus313 on Feb 1, 2020 21:42:43 GMT
Sure. Otoh, I've never seen a fair fight, not even in salle play (I think we kind of agree on that). Don't get me wrong, I don't think there's anything wrong with working on one's "speed".
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Post by vecna808 on Feb 1, 2020 21:54:14 GMT
Well, I mean... I have no idea what the imaginary opponent is doing, there, so I have no way to judge how sound or successful your actions are.
Its shadow boxing, I am traveling 6m, there are 3 cuts and a final blow. Slow it down to see the locations and type of cut/thrust.
Like shadow boxing its free form, the opponent is there in front of me, being backed up, till he gets to the walll where I finish him off.
Its NOT a dance, I do not learn a sequence.
At that speed and power do you want to be on the wrong end ?
Yes, do a fair bit of sparring, but I don't get much from that these days ( mainly distance management) .
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Feb 1, 2020 21:59:20 GMT
Some thoughts on speed and parries:
Speed matters. If the opponents are close to evenly matched in skill, it makes a big difference. This is why Olympic fencers (and other top-level fencers) do a lot of strength training - when all else is equal, athleticism can be the difference between winning and losing.
But speed without matched skill doesn't help so much. If the more skilled opponent is careless, one can get lucky through speed. But this kind of carelessness is a serious error, something one shouldn't depend on an opponent making. Facing an opponent who depends on speed, it isn't a question of "the milliseconds one has", because there is much more time than that - you should see what the attack will be, at least enough so as to start your defence against it, long before it comes down to milliseconds.
Conversely, when attacking, using skill (e.g., not telegraphing and/or feints/deception) cuts down the opponent's reaction time much than being a little bit faster. (And the difficulty of doing this successfully against an equally skilled opponent is what makes speed and athleticism more important in that case.)
As for parries, avoiding the incoming attack and hitting the opponent is generally better than parrying. (It's the same in many martial arts, including unarmed martial arts: in boxing, slipping is better than parrying is better than blocking.) But parries (and even blocks, where you stop the opponent's blade rather than deflecting it) are more than just last-ditch defences. They give you a lot more freedom of movement, since you can stay in close when you can both stay in close and avoid the opponent's attack. They can disrupt the opponent's plan, and stop them mid-combination.
Some of the dependence on speed in competitive fencing (whether foil/epee/sabre or other) results from the rules. In foil fencing, a stop hit during your attack will stop you from scoring. With real swords, you'd be run through. Typically, being left exposed after your attack isn't a big deal - if you have already hit with your attack, it's your point, and the action re-sets. In a fight where the action doesn't stop, and it's wounds/death as the consequences, that kind of exposure is often a poor risk.
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Post by MOK on Feb 1, 2020 23:19:22 GMT
Well, I mean... I have no idea what the imaginary opponent is doing, there, so I have no way to judge how sound or successful your actions are. Its shadow boxing, I am traveling 6m, there are 3 cuts and a final blow. Slow it down to see the locations and type of cut/thrust. Like shadow boxing its free form, the opponent is there in front of me, being backed up, till he gets to the walll where I finish him off. Its NOT a dance, I do not learn a sequence. At that speed and power do you want to be on the wrong end ? Yes, do a fair bit of sparring, but I don't get much from that these days ( mainly distance management) .
Oh, I can dig it, I do that too. Just saying, the only thing I can tell from watching someone else do freeform drills or solo plays is whether their form is good, and I'm not familiar enough with any kenjutsu style to judge yours, so this doesn't give me any idea what and how you'd actually do against an opponent. Because, IMO, what actually matters in a fight is not how fast or hard you can swing your weapon, but whether you can do it at the right time and in the right way to protect yourself and take out the opponent. It's all about the interaction between the fighters, you know? And sure, if you ever come to Finland I'll spar you! I have gear and a big open yard and ain't afraid of no lich god.
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Post by vecna808 on Feb 1, 2020 23:56:31 GMT
Some thoughts on speed and parries: Speed matters. If the opponents are close to evenly matched in skill, it makes a big difference. This is why Olympic fencers (and other top-level fencers) do a lot of strength training - when all else is equal, athleticism can be the difference between winning and losing. But speed without matched skill doesn't help so much. If the more skilled opponent is careless, one can get lucky through speed. But this kind of carelessness is a serious error, something one shouldn't depend on an opponent making. Facing an opponent who depends on speed, it isn't a question of "the milliseconds one has", because there is much more time than that - you should see what the attack will be, at least enough so as to start your defence against it, long before it comes down to milliseconds. Conversely, when attacking, using skill (e.g., not telegraphing and/or feints/deception) cuts down the opponent's reaction time much than being a little bit faster. (And the difficulty of doing this successfully against an equally skilled opponent is what makes speed and athleticism more important in that case.) As for parries, avoiding the incoming attack and hitting the opponent is generally better than parrying. (It's the same in many martial arts, including unarmed martial arts: in boxing, slipping is better than parrying is better than blocking.) But parries (and even blocks, where you stop the opponent's blade rather than deflecting it) are more than just last-ditch defences. They give you a lot more freedom of movement, since you can stay in close when you can both stay in close and avoid the opponent's attack. They can disrupt the opponent's plan, and stop them mid-combination. Some of the dependence on speed in competitive fencing (whether foil/epee/sabre or other) results from the rules. In foil fencing, a stop hit during your attack will stop you from scoring. With real swords, you'd be run through. Typically, being left exposed after your attack isn't a big deal - if you have already hit with your attack, it's your point, and the action re-sets. In a fight where the action doesn't stop, and it's wounds/death as the consequences, that kind of exposure is often a poor risk.
Beautiful post, agree totally. You added all the exceptions that needed to be stated to the "speed kills rule"
But I would add ( argue ), as humans we have a technical limit on our reaction time, this is a physical constraint that can not be gotten round, for skill to work the attack must be slow enough to fit that reaction envelope ( no amount of skill will help you dodge a bullet) . When operating near the limits of that envelope the balance between skill/speed changes towards athleticism, ( which includes stamina, but another subject lol ) and since I can easily force a fight into that area, hey Also yes block/parry great when it works, but the consequence of missing that block/parry are disastrous, pretty much end of fight. Doing a cost/benefit on it has led me away from the concept ( especially after some nasty training accidents involving hospital stays ).
Last point so so true, that why I shy away from eppe/foil ( never touched a sabre ), I think that is the central reason a lot of traditional Japanese sword arts ( well the ones that survived the bloody Americans anyway ) are still relevant.
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Feb 2, 2020 0:00:29 GMT
Indeed, no need to be shy!
Ok here goes, first time at recording s**t, and very first time posting a vid, so dont expect any production values
So rip away guys , I think Im fast, but pleased to be proved wrong
This is about 70% , but to be honest pushing out that extra 30% is getting harder and harder as I go past 52 years of age.
Oh, I thought we were actually going to see you apply something to a resisting opponent, maybe a stranger, like the two you were criticizing. Oh, well...
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Post by MOK on Feb 2, 2020 0:04:42 GMT
Oh! There is one thing I do gotta say.
*ahem*
People.
Seriously.
Listen here.
When you're shooting video, turn the phone horizontal!
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Post by vecna808 on Feb 2, 2020 0:08:45 GMT
Its shadow boxing, I am traveling 6m, there are 3 cuts and a final blow. Slow it down to see the locations and type of cut/thrust. Like shadow boxing its free form, the opponent is there in front of me, being backed up, till he gets to the walll where I finish him off. Its NOT a dance, I do not learn a sequence. At that speed and power do you want to be on the wrong end ? Yes, do a fair bit of sparring, but I don't get much from that these days ( mainly distance management) .
Oh, I can dig it, I do that too. Just saying, the only thing I can tell from watching someone else do freeform drills or solo plays is whether their form is good, and I'm not familiar enough with any kenjutsu style to judge yours, so this doesn't give me any idea what and how you'd actually do against an opponent. Because, IMO, what actually matters in a fight is not how fast or hard you can swing your weapon, but whether you can do it at the right time and in the right way to protect yourself and take out the opponent. It's all about the interaction between the fighters, you know? And sure, if you ever come to Finland I'll spar you! I have gear and a big open yard and ain't afraid of no lich god.
Oh that is so cool, I am in Denmark, ok not that near, but not is the US or anything
My form is ok, nothing special, but ( mostly, we could all do better ) stays tight at speed.
Lost the bloody godhood working on getting it back
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