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Post by vecna808 on Feb 4, 2020 20:11:45 GMT
A bit of everything  Lots of medieval reenactment ( not HEMA, ) , bit of kenjitsu, bit of kendo, a lot of fencing, a lot of ninjitsu. Tried Akido.
Only competition fencing was of any relevance ( to me ). Besides I had/have no fascination with Japanese culture ( other than their swords ) so learning from guys who insisted I wear traditional garb and talk Japanese became a bore. I am there to train to kill guys with a sword as brutally efficiently and quickly as possible, not to learn to drink tea.
Over the years I have ditched 90% of the crap have learned , now use a small subset that actually works at the speed and power I operate at.
Maybe its a new style now ? Ken-Fencing lol
"To be fair, that is how you presented yourself - with a focus on speed and getting in first. " You dont think I am going to lay all my cards on the table ? lol besides that exactly where the focus should be.
Have you ever been in a fight with someone a LOT faster than you ? I have, and skill, or belief in the force did not save me from a monumental ass wooping , and the morning at casualty.
I have actually, both in recreational wrestling and fencing (which I use as an umbrella term for any sword art). What sort of competitions have you been able to attend and use your style of fencing in? If you're in the NV/NorCal area I think it would be interesting to meet up and spar.
Denmark Im afraid 
I assuming your in America ? Do you get to europe ever ?
Done few tourneys in UK, just fencing .
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Post by vecna808 on Feb 4, 2020 20:20:29 GMT
So what matches have you been in, what was the system, and what did you win? Proof is in the pudding. Otherwise..
You understand that people alter speed depending on the circumstances, right? A friendly HEMA vs Kendo match with synths and mixed gear pretty much requires that you're not going to go 100% or move into ringen. And posting a solo drill really means very little in this context. Uncontrolled blow storms usually result in a double kill at best. If you're interested in perfecting very high speed cuts for competition, I'd suggest SCA sword and board. Those guys have the fastest cuts I've encountered. But of course the shield makes it possible. Otherwise that kind of thing is suicidal.
Totally, proof in the pudding.
Been in lots of matches, you might be surprised: ) , but sorry nothing big ( best I won was a plastic silver cup ).
Tell you what, you point at someone / some competition in europe, and I will go win. ( we play my tho tho, identical weapons / protection, and no in-ring rules ).
"Uncontrolled blow storm" wow, slow the vid down and try again.
Double kills are the norm unless one guy is noticeably better.
Its not just cutting , footwork, lunge flexibility,
Is SCA faster then this ? , cos I am training to make them look slow, if SCA faster, very very interested.
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Post by Cosmoline on Feb 4, 2020 20:26:05 GMT
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Post by Cosmoline on Feb 4, 2020 20:38:03 GMT
Kendo is also very fast, but I've never sparred against Kendo guys so I can't say from personal experience. I have sparred against SCA heavies, and they practice very hard and fast hits. They also have a lot of little rules, strange equipment and some pretty outdated ideas about armored combat. But I've learned not to make judgments until I cross swords. They can really steamroll you!
HEMA is, IMHO, the best avenue currently available for testing concepts. There is no one set of rules, so it's possible to experiment with different approaches from formal right-of-way to continuous sparring. It's also perfectly viable to do unjudged matches. The gear offers excellent all-around protection if you are a smart shopper. There's a full range of simulators from synthetic to steel.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Feb 4, 2020 20:39:24 GMT
Kendo is a sport with very specific rules. Why did you post a video of this? It doesn't prove anything. You stated you won't fight with rules- but you post a video with lots of rules in a style you claim to not fight in.
In any event, I don't know how far it is from Denmark to Germany, but I will be in the Dusseldorf area next week if you are interested in meeting up. I know it's short notice and there is travel involved, so if not this time, then I will be returning most likely towards the end of the year to the same area and we can arrange something then.
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Post by vecna808 on Feb 4, 2020 20:45:08 GMT
Ok when get round to it will have a look at your links, thank you very much.
Might sucker someone into using an equal bokken, European longsword really does suck balls lol , and no way facing guy with longer weapon, that is just dumb.
Already thought about swordfish, its near Denmark ( Sweden again this year ? ), last heard tho limited spaces ?
Anyway yes will find something to win, at least keep you guys quiet lol
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Post by vecna808 on Feb 4, 2020 20:48:20 GMT
Kendo is also very fast, but I've never sparred against Kendo guys so I can't say from personal experience. I have sparred against SCA heavies, and they practice very hard and fast hits. They also have a lot of little rules, strange equipment and some pretty outdated ideas about armored combat. But I've learned not to make judgments until I cross swords. They can really steamroll you!
HEMA is, IMHO, the best avenue currently available for testing concepts. There is no one set of rules, so it's possible to experiment with different approaches from formal right-of-way to continuous sparring. It's also perfectly viable to do unjudged matches. The gear offers excellent all-around protection if you are a smart shopper. There's a full range of simulators from synthetic to steel.
Sounds really interesting, I will do a google, but if you have some time spare can you post a link or 2 .
Thanks.
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Post by vecna808 on Feb 4, 2020 20:53:47 GMT
Kendo is a sport with very specific rules. Why did you post a video of this? It doesn't prove anything. You stated you won't fight with rules- but you post a video with lots of rules in a style you claim to not fight in. In any event, I don't know how far it is from Denmark to Germany, but I will be in the Dusseldorf area next week if you are interested in meeting up. I know it's short notice and there is travel involved, so if not this time, then I will be returning most likely towards the end of the year to the same area and we can arrange something then.
Looking up Dusseldorf now If can make it I will
Yes denmark has boarder with Germany up at Flensborg ( near Keil ) so not too bad, but I am on an island way up, so add another 250k to German border.
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Post by MOK on Feb 4, 2020 21:04:38 GMT
I gotta say, in my view, if "double kills are the norm" then it's either a 100% pure sport or something has gone terribly wrong. In a combat art that'd be a complete waste of everybody's time and lives. Hurting the opponent is always the easy part, it's not getting hurt yourself that takes practice and is actually worth training for.
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Post by MOK on Feb 4, 2020 21:12:33 GMT
Nobody spars with NO rules. You don't try to actually disable or kill your training partners, no matter how hard you train. I would actually say the opposite, how the hell is anyone going to have confidence in a move if not tried at full speed/power against a equalish deadly opponent ? If you do not actually do the experiment ( LOTS of times ) your just giving an educated guess. And yes that why hard to find training partners, ( sadly ). Obviously protection, and bokken only. Im not doing that s**t with any kind of metal. ( I do weight my bokken to 900gm, but not for sparring so it more like 600gm there, and round the end) even then there are bruises, but a bit of pain is a great way to learn quick /div] Of course, train as hard and fast as your equipment safely allows! But as you note, you use agreed upon weapons and other gear, and I'll wager that you also deliberately aim for the opponent's armor instead of the openings in it, and probably won't go for head/neck throws, groin or knee kicks, joint destruction grapples and other such techniques that would actually injure your practice partner. Those and all the other restrictions you train under are all rules, even if some of them are unspoken. |
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Post by Jordan Williams on Feb 4, 2020 21:16:34 GMT
I have actually, both in recreational wrestling and fencing (which I use as an umbrella term for any sword art). What sort of competitions have you been able to attend and use your style of fencing in? If you're in the NV/NorCal area I think it would be interesting to meet up and spar.
Denmark Im afraid
I assuming your in America ? Do you get to europe ever ?
Done few tourneys in UK, just fencing .
Ah, sad. What sort of fencing? |
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Post by Jordan Williams on Feb 4, 2020 21:22:19 GMT
Nobody spars with NO rules. You don't try to actually disable or kill your training partners, no matter how hard you train.
I would actually say the opposite, how the hell is anyone going to have confidence in a move if not tried at full speed/power against a equalish deadly opponent ?
If you do not actually do the experiment ( LOTS of times ) your just giving an educated guess.
And yes that why hard to find training partners, ( sadly ).
Obviously protection, and bokken only. Im not doing that s**t with any kind of metal. ( I do weight my bokken to 900gm, but not for sparring so it more like 600gm there, and round the end) even then there are bruises, but a bit of pain is a great way to learn quick
Why not spar with steel? I fence with my sabre and rapier as fast as I would in a real fight. The sabres I use range from 700 - 900 grams and my rapier is about 2 pounds 6 ounces. I'll have to check it again. Hema longsword fencers use steel longsword that can weigh over 1500 grams. With proper PPE you can negate much of the physical injury risk. It doesn't do you any favors to look at sparring as a life and death match. Sparring is to make your technique and skills as honed and efficient as possible. If you treat each sparring round as a real match you may stifle progress. |
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Feb 4, 2020 22:02:46 GMT
In particular, steel sparring swords (and synthetic ones, too) can be made to be much more flexible than a bokken for safer thrusts in sparring.
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Post by Cosmoline on Feb 4, 2020 22:18:06 GMT
Steel is the way to go.
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Post by Dalaran1991 on Feb 5, 2020 14:39:10 GMT
I posted this vid on another thread, but here goes:
I'm the one with the Hakama and I have background in Kenjutsu and Aikiken, but not Kendo. The one in blue using the katana is a winner of several European longsword championship. No thrust and no leg hit allowed.
Despite having never used a katana before you can see that my friend there used it to deadly effect. While I'm fairly competent with both katana and longsword I'm nowhere near his level. Still the longsword gave an extreme range advantage. This however was compensated by my opponent's footwork and lightning fast riposte.
In the original vid the longswordman won hands down with that deadly thurst at the very beginning of the vid... He stopped doing it for sportmanship purpose but if he utilized the full range of the longsword the kenshin would have a very hard time.
I know a lot of kendoka and while we respect their reflexes and body mechanics use, kendo is a sport. It should not be compared to HEMA. A better comparison is Kenjutsu vs HEMA
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Post by vecna808 on Feb 5, 2020 16:12:01 GMT
I posted this vid on another thread, but here goes: I'm the one with the Hakama and I have background in Kenjutsu and Aikiken, but not Kendo. The one in blue using the katana is a winner of several European longsword championship. No thrust and no leg hit allowed. Despite having never used a katana before you can see that my friend there used it to deadly effect. While I'm fairly competent with both katana and longsword I'm nowhere near his level. Still the longsword gave an extreme range advantage. This however was compensated by my opponent's footwork and lightning fast riposte. In the original vid the longswordman won hands down with that deadly thurst at the very beginning of the vid... He stopped doing it for sportmanship purpose but if he utilized the full range of the longsword the kenshin would have a very hard time. I know a lot of kendoka and while we respect their reflexes and body mechanics use, kendo is a sport. It should not be compared to HEMA. A better comparison is Kenjutsu vs HEMA
Excellent clip.
Would like more details on the HEMA guy , he is not bad at all.
The style I developed over the years is almost identical to his, I was shocked lol
Would love to see you both at full tilt
You have a second gear, he also has a second, gear, and a third he rarely displays.
I can not tell how fast he is at full pelt, which means he hides his full prowess very well, hmmm interesting!
Am off to training, will be working that bit harder, thank you !
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Post by vecna808 on Feb 5, 2020 21:22:35 GMT
I would actually say the opposite, how the hell is anyone going to have confidence in a move if not tried at full speed/power against a equalish deadly opponent ? If you do not actually do the experiment ( LOTS of times ) your just giving an educated guess. And yes that why hard to find training partners, ( sadly ). Obviously protection, and bokken only. Im not doing that s**t with any kind of metal. ( I do weight my bokken to 900gm, but not for sparring so it more like 600gm there, and round the end) even then there are bruises, but a bit of pain is a great way to learn quick /div] Of course, train as hard and fast as your equipment safely allows! But as you note, you use agreed upon weapons and other gear, and I'll wager that you also deliberately aim for the opponent's armor instead of the openings in it, and probably won't go for head/neck throws, groin or knee kicks, joint destruction grapples and other such techniques that would actually injure your practice partner. Those and all the other restrictions you train under are all rules, even if some of them are unspoken.
Yep totally, everything you said. !
My bad should have been more specific, no rules except the obvious.
Not training for armor now, I fell in love with the katana which is useless against even medium chain, I don pretend for 1 second any kind of 2 handed sword can match an experienced guy with shortsword and shield, let alone good armor.
As soon as you add armor etc, its all about who can get the fight to the ground then who has the best jujitsu ( or BJJ ), even with maces its still first to ground, top position then ground and pound with the mace. ( you can tell my BJJ is semprini lol , if was any good would go for armbar or leg lock )
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Post by vecna808 on Feb 5, 2020 21:48:23 GMT
I would actually say the opposite, how the hell is anyone going to have confidence in a move if not tried at full speed/power against a equalish deadly opponent ?
If you do not actually do the experiment ( LOTS of times ) your just giving an educated guess.
And yes that why hard to find training partners, ( sadly ).
Obviously protection, and bokken only. Im not doing that s**t with any kind of metal. ( I do weight my bokken to 900gm, but not for sparring so it more like 600gm there, and round the end) even then there are bruises, but a bit of pain is a great way to learn quick
Why not spar with steel? I fence with my sabre and rapier as fast as I would in a real fight. The sabres I use range from 700 - 900 grams and my rapier is about 2 pounds 6 ounces. I'll have to check it again. Hema longsword fencers use steel longsword that can weigh over 1500 grams. With proper PPE you can negate much of the physical injury risk. It doesn't do you any favors to look at sparring as a life and death match. Sparring is to make your technique and skills as honed and efficient as possible. If you treat each sparring round as a real match you may stifle progress.
Its a personal thing, a long time ago I took a steel blade 3 inch into my gut, perfect storm of circumstances ( he was thrusting, I ran into it, young ,stupid, useless protection ) after 2 weeks in hospital it took best part of year before could train again ( hospital did exploritory surgery, which cut all the tummy muscles) . After that always do not perform propper when facing steel, no prob will still do it, ( totally get it should be steel, and am at a disadvantage cos do not train with steel enough ) just not so much fun for me. I know its bloody stupid, will deal with myself one day lol
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Post by Cosmoline on Feb 6, 2020 22:08:14 GMT
Ouch! Keep in mind that there's steel and there's steel. And HEMA has outgrown some of the earlier screwups. At this point, the steel used for full force tournaments is quite safe provided people have some level of common sense (ie, no half swording up under masks, no crazy leap-thrusts that snap blades). You can also get gear that features enhanced puncture proofing. With solid gear, hard point protection and one of the newer masks you're good to go. The gauntlets are still being improved, but as far as *safety*, the big plastic clamshells are great.
Some of us fence and train with true steel simulators (not feders, but stiff blades), but we do so at a reduced pace. The feders are what you use for full tilt, in gear. Sometimes folks who see us train assume we're just slow. But it's part of a system of slow play used to allow safe use of simulators esp. for windings.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Feb 7, 2020 0:29:54 GMT
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