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Post by legacyofthesword on Jan 12, 2020 6:00:23 GMT
THese may have been posted before, but if not, here they are. It's nice to see both fighters at (what looks to my untrained eye) competent skill levels. Most of the time it's two kendo practitioners or two HEMA practitioners and one of them just has a longsword or bokken/shinai. These guys both look like they know what they're doing in their respective arts.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Jan 12, 2020 6:05:58 GMT
Well, kendo vs one of the longsword traditions, right?
I would love to fence sabre or rapier vs katana some time.
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Post by legacyofthesword on Jan 12, 2020 19:18:34 GMT
Well, kendo vs one of the longsword traditions, right? I would love to fence sabre or rapier vs katana some time. Good point, haha. Saber vs katana would be very interesting. I feel like rapier would dominate the katana pretty quickly though (skills being equal).
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Post by RufusScorpius on Jan 13, 2020 11:16:41 GMT
So what? Kendo is a sport, HEMA is a combat skill. You can't compare a style that has rules designed to prevent injuries to the participants and win by scoring technical points with a style that is designed to kill on the battlefield. It makes for an interesting demo, but it has no practical application. It's no different than having a Kendo vs. Kenjutsu match up. Apples to oranges.
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Post by Cosmoline on Jan 14, 2020 0:10:02 GMT
It's fun, but obviously limited by technical differences. Ultimately we should be able to see some steel-on-steel action. The concept has certainly improved over the years.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jan 14, 2020 5:00:45 GMT
So what? Kendo is a sport, HEMA is a combat skill. You can't compare a style that has rules designed to prevent injuries to the participants and win by scoring technical points with a style that is designed to kill on the battlefield. It makes for an interesting demo, but it has no practical application. It's no different than having a Kendo vs. Kenjutsu match up. Apples to oranges. I think that kendo vs kenjutsu is potentially very practical - both can learn something useful. The kendoka can learn what gaps in their style result from kendo rules, and the kenjutsu practitioner can learn about the value of sparring (assuming they don't spar or already do kendo themselves). These videos showed very kendo-friendly longsword, perhaps the result of kendo-friendly rules. Which takes away a lot of learning benefit for the kendoka. IMO, hitting kendoka in the legs is very educational. The theory in kendo is that attacking the legs is suicidal, so no attacks to the legs. But attacks to the legs (with a weapon of equal reach, e.g., katana vs katana) is only suicidal if the opponent has learned to make it suicidal. Otherwise, it's a relatively safe and easy way to hit the opponent. Longsword vs katana is an interesting exercise for those used to only longsword vs longsword or katana vs katana (or shina vs shinai), because of the difference in reach. 4" of difference in reach is already significant, and longsword vs katana offers a bigger difference. Similar variety in reach can be had staying purely in HEMA, and longsword vs short arming sword or messer will offer many of the same lessons. Distance management and footwork is where the nice lessons are in this kind of thing; didn't see much of it in the videos. (The kendoka's style is given as Itto-ryu, which implies koryu kenjutsu.)
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Post by legacyofthesword on Jan 14, 2020 6:16:44 GMT
Interesting, I hadn't even considered the aspect of kendo's sportification. I'll have to watch the videos again, I didn't notice that they were avoiding hits to the legs.
I suppose that explains why the kendo practitioner was doing about as well as the HEMA fellow.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Jan 14, 2020 11:24:04 GMT
I have said in the past on this forum that I would absolutely love to cross swords with a disimiar style of fighting. It would be hugely educational.
I just don't think that mixing sports with fighting is useful. There isn't much of a takeaway from that. The sport will still have rules for safety, fairness, and competition, and the fighting technique will gain nothing useful to adapt with.
A fighting technique vs fighting technique- both will learn weakness and strength.
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Post by Cosmoline on Jan 15, 2020 2:06:13 GMT
Whether or not you call HEMA a sport, there are always rules for the match. The problem here is that the rules and equipment are quite different. In this case, I believe that all targets should be viable, steel should be used, thrusts permitted and grappling allowed.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Jan 24, 2020 22:14:18 GMT
It's difficult under the best of conditions to compare two dissimilar styles due to safety rules. However, I believe that a good amount of information can be learned even when "pulling punches". If two level headed and skilled practitioners were sparring, they would know how far they could go without causing injury to the opponent, AND know when to pause because the got "hit" and examine the exchange (including an examination of the potential injury from the hit). It's terribly easy to get too involved in the fight and forget to go easy in the interest of "winning". As for me, I don't mind a few bruises as payment for learning.
I'm working on something now where I will be sparring with a HEMA practitioner next month... details to come.
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Post by Cosmoline on Jan 27, 2020 17:08:04 GMT
The gear may matter more than the rules, frankly. Synths and other overly flexible simulators will favor fast, unprotected cuts. It's very difficult to cover your line with one, or to do any kind of deflection or winding. And the feedback tends to encourage fast cuts. Once you introduce stiffer steel, you start to be able to make displacing cuts and windings. It's never going to be perfect, but IMHO any kendo/HEMA sparring needs to involve steel simulators to give a meaningful result.
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Post by vecna808 on Jan 31, 2020 20:35:41 GMT
Slow, very very slow. Ok I do not know what speed they decided on ( maybe they are taking it easy ), but seems to me they dont have much more even at full throttle ( 10% more topps ). The HEMA stances are awful, just cos its in some old book does not mean its of any relevance at all,one should develop "moves" from sparing at full speed, what works is kept, what does not is forcefully dropped. The stance with his sword behind him, and leading with his face is particularly annoying. The kendo guy is ok, but displays the normal kendo failings, feet like rocks, no lateral movement, no head movement, no concept of sword edge. Both of them have little idea of distance management ( they run in like rhinoceros, ever heard of moving backwards? ) Both have a morbid fascination with blocking, which should in reality only be used wheh you f**k up. Doubt anyone at swordfish or the Japanese Kendo Championship is going to be quaking in their boots And before anyone asks, yes could take em with ease.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Feb 1, 2020 0:23:10 GMT
Well, all I can say is that if you wait about 10 days (February 9) then you'll have two forum members sparring on video to dissect. One HEMA, one Kenjutsu. I can only speak for the kenjutsu guy and say that he is, on a good day, mediocre. Add jet lag and a bad knee, bifocals, borrowed equipment, and over 50... so don't expect much from that guy.
The HEMA guy will have home field advantage, fully rested, wearing his own equipment and in his own gym. The kenjutsu is relying on the HEMA guy to feed him and give him a ride back to the train station...so he might be a bit biased and let the HEMA guy win a few rounds.
Ok, those are all the excuses I can think of right now. The only thing I can promise is that both guys will be having buckets of fun.
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Post by RaylonTheDemented on Feb 1, 2020 0:38:08 GMT
Interesting, I hadn't even considered the aspect of kendo's sportification. I'll have to watch the videos again, I didn't notice that they were avoiding hits to the legs. I suppose that explains why the kendo practitioner was doing about as well as the HEMA fellow. Definitely interesting. Our son used to do Yoseikan Budo competitions (he stopped at 12) and he won quite a few competition in armed combat, earning extra points doing surprise leg attacks in armed combat category.
Just asked him and he said his sensei never said anything about that, but then he trained his students to win, so whatever worked I guess. Yoseikan is dabbing in a few ryu and prone adaptation, so I guess it may be that.
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Post by legacyofthesword on Feb 1, 2020 4:27:47 GMT
Well, all I can say is that if you wait about 10 days (February 9) then you'll have two forum members sparring on video to dissect. One HEMA, one Kenjutsu. I can only speak for the kenjutsu guy and say that he is, on a good day, mediocre. Add jet lag and a bad knee, bifocals, borrowed equipment, and over 50... so don't expect much from that guy. The HEMA guy will have home field advantage, fully rested, wearing his own equipment and in his own gym. The kenjutsu is relying on the HEMA guy to feed him and give him a ride back to the train station...so he might be a bit biased and let the HEMA guy win a few rounds. Ok, those are all the excuses I can think of right now. The only thing I can promise is that both guys will be having buckets of fun. Definitely looking forward to this!
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Post by Jordan Williams on Feb 1, 2020 5:40:55 GMT
Slow, very very slow. Ok I do not know what speed they decided on ( maybe they are taking it easy ), but seems to me they dont have much more even at full throttle ( 10% more topps ). The HEMA stances are awful, just cos its in some old book does not mean its of any relevance at all,one should develop "moves" from sparing at full speed, what works is kept, what does not is forcefully dropped. The stance with his sword behind him, and leading with his face is particularly annoying. The kendo guy is ok, but displays the normal kendo failings, feet like rocks, no lateral movement, no head movement, no concept of sword edge. Both of them have little idea of distance management ( they run in like rhinoceros, ever heard of moving backwards? ) Both have a morbid fascination with blocking, which should in reality only be used wheh you f**k up. Doubt anyone at swordfish or the Japanese Kendo Championship is going to be quaking in their boots And before anyone asks, yes could take em with ease. Blocking? Curious what you mean by it?
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Post by vecna808 on Feb 1, 2020 10:48:30 GMT
Slow, very very slow. Ok I do not know what speed they decided on ( maybe they are taking it easy ), but seems to me they dont have much more even at full throttle ( 10% more topps ). The HEMA stances are awful, just cos its in some old book does not mean its of any relevance at all,one should develop "moves" from sparing at full speed, what works is kept, what does not is forcefully dropped. The stance with his sword behind him, and leading with his face is particularly annoying. The kendo guy is ok, but displays the normal kendo failings, feet like rocks, no lateral movement, no head movement, no concept of sword edge. Both of them have little idea of distance management ( they run in like rhinoceros, ever heard of moving backwards? ) Both have a morbid fascination with blocking, which should in reality only be used wheh you f**k up. Doubt anyone at swordfish or the Japanese Kendo Championship is going to be quaking in their boots And before anyone asks, yes could take em with ease. Blocking? Curious what you mean by it? The parry One of the most annoying things to see when watching two swordsmen. Ok in fencing the parry/reposte is a core move, thats cos in fencing the wrist is the primary element in achieving a thrust and is fast ! Also fencers are fighting at greater distance ( single handed ) so have more time to react, more time to find the other blade in a parry. A parry/reposte is just not effective at full speed with 2 handed technique ( Im a boken guy ), or to be precise with the milliseconds one has, its better to try and get a telling cut in.
Exception to this is attacking the opponents blade, the crucial difference there is, that one is initiating NOT reacting..
Hence, only consider a parry when you f**k up, when one is out of position, over extended, moving backward, cornered, when you cant bring the fight forward.
All the above only applies at SPEED, not the speed of the video guys, real speed.
If anyone is interested I will post a training clip , then you can see some real speed
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Post by RufusScorpius on Feb 1, 2020 11:35:28 GMT
Well, all I can say is that if you wait about 10 days (February 9) then you'll have two forum members sparring on video to dissect. One HEMA, one Kenjutsu. I can only speak for the kenjutsu guy and say that he is, on a good day, mediocre. Add jet lag and a bad knee, bifocals, borrowed equipment, and over 50... so don't expect much from that guy. The HEMA guy will have home field advantage, fully rested, wearing his own equipment and in his own gym. The kenjutsu is relying on the HEMA guy to feed him and give him a ride back to the train station...so he might be a bit biased and let the HEMA guy win a few rounds. Ok, those are all the excuses I can think of right now. The only thing I can promise is that both guys will be having buckets of fun. Definitely looking forward to this! Me too! I'm going to be traveling a long way to do this, but I have always believed in "put up or shut up". After the vids are posted I reserve the right to criticize others forever and always because i earned it. I will make a new thread and an official announcement later today.
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Post by vecna808 on Feb 1, 2020 11:37:47 GMT
Interesting, I hadn't even considered the aspect of kendo's sportification. I'll have to watch the videos again, I didn't notice that they were avoiding hits to the legs. I suppose that explains why the kendo practitioner was doing about as well as the HEMA fellow. Definitely interesting. Our son used to do Yoseikan Budo competitions (he stopped at 12) and he won quite a few competition in armed combat, earning extra points doing surprise leg attacks in armed combat category.
Just asked him and he said his sensei never said anything about that, but then he trained his students to win, so whatever worked I guess. Yoseikan is dabbing in a few ryu and prone adaptation, so I guess it may be that.
"Trained students to win" now that sounds up my ally can you post any links/videos. ? I'm a shogun lengh katana guy ( but spend most my life with the bokken , so suppose am a bokken guy lol )
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Post by vecna808 on Feb 1, 2020 11:56:46 GMT
Definitely looking forward to this! Me too! I'm going to be traveling a long way to do this, but I have always believed in "put up or shut up". After the vids are posted I reserve the right to criticize others forever and always because i earned it. I will make a new thread and an official announcement later today.
semprini its you two !! Did not realize lol
Yep when I post a training segment ( when i'm asked, it would be bad manners otherwise ) I expect a damn good roasting, don let me down.
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