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Post by RaylonTheDemented on Feb 2, 2020 22:10:07 GMT
The only way to know for sure if you can "take" someone in a fight is to fight them. But, caveat emptor. There is always someone better than you or luckier than you. And you don't know who that is. In the vid clip: can you be 100% sure the skills they are demonstrating are ALL they have, and can you be completely certain they aren't sharking you? In my mind they know a little something, it's not unreasonable to assume they might know more. Arrogance and overconfidence will kill you before the first blade is drawn. There where times where overconfident and arrogant people died all over the world in duels because they thought they were better, faster or more skilled.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Feb 2, 2020 23:26:10 GMT
Personal story. I trained for 2 years with a team of guys before deployment to the middle east. One of the team members was Rambo 2.0. He was the best at everything, always first, highest scores, confident, eager to go and display his awesomeness, etc. Less than 1 minute on the ground in theater and he took a round through his thigh. Less. Than. One. Minute.
I'll never forget the look on his face as we stretchered him out.. all he could say over and over again was "that's it, that's all I got to do?" He's fine. Walks with a slight limp, but no more soldiering for him. The rest of us- not a scratch.
Fate, and her sister Luck, will have their final say in all matters of war.
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Post by vecna808 on Feb 3, 2020 12:19:43 GMT
Personal story. I trained for 2 years with a team of guys before deployment to the middle east. One of the team members was Rambo 2.0. He was the best at everything, always first, highest scores, confident, eager to go and display his awesomeness, etc. Less than 1 minute on the ground in theater and he took a round through his thigh. Less. Than. One. Minute. I'll never forget the look on his face as we stretchered him out.. all he could say over and over again was "that's it, that's all I got to do?" He's fine. Walks with a slight limp, but no more soldiering for him. The rest of us- not a scratch. Fate, and her sister Luck, will have their final say in all matters of war.
Well thats a battlefield for you, slightly controlled chaos.
And fair play to you for ever stepping foot on a modern battlefield.
Did the injuries you mentioned come from the insane training you guys go through ?
The reason I ask is, I have a friend ( ex FFL ) who cured a lot of his injuries ( knees, back, and neck ) that came from his soldier days, through a mixture of ( very expensive ) herbs and powders ( chinese medicine kind of ), I am on a similar regiment and do not get major injuries ( but then again I am training prob 1/20 of what you guys were at ), and the minor ones heal stupid quick.
If your interested will post you some details .
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Post by RufusScorpius on Feb 3, 2020 14:38:22 GMT
The weakness of all military planning is that they consistently fail to brief the enemy in what they are expected to do during the scheme of maneuvers. Therefore, the enemy has a nasty habit of totally f*^ing up your carefully orchestrated plan of operation (usually somewhere between paragraph 1 and 2 on page one) by being in the wrong places and doing the wrong things. Very quickly you find yourself somewhere between "Plan Q" (A through P are already out the window) and "improvise on the fly based on Commander's Intent and what you have in your pocket". At the end of the day you look around and realize the only reason you were mostly successful is that the enemy was even more confused than you were.
And always have artillery on the radio. Always. Always. Always.
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Post by Cosmoline on Feb 3, 2020 18:07:24 GMT
Oh, I thought we were actually going to see you apply something to a resisting opponent, maybe a stranger, like the two you were criticizing. Oh, well... I believe my criticisms were justified, I would not have said them otherwise,
I also think I demonstrated that am faster, are you arguing different ?
Also how is demonstrating against an opponent going to show my speed ? Wont that depend on the quality of opponent ?
It's easy to be quick when nobody is attacking you. It matters, specifically, because if you fight an opponent you have to defend as well as attack. That changes the way you approach, enter and engage. It can even change the way you move your blade to cover a line. Just throwing cuts fast means very little. I mean--it's nice to know HOW, but also to know when not to. Obvious traps are obvious. That said, sometimes you can just walk up and pop someone who's overthinking things.
For purposes of katana v. HEMA or other variations, I think starting slow is essential for safety and for understanding how it's going to work. It's fairly uncharted territory, so proceeding with caution is always a good idea. The specific situation I've seen problems with is SCA vs. HEMA, which can get dangerous for both sides if you don't take some time for slow sparring and getting to know each other's systems. HEMA folks are used to full body thrusts to the face, and SCA folks are used to powerhouse attacks to the chest and hips. So what's ended up happening is a potentially dangerous double where the SCA guy gets a steel sword thrust into a mask that's not really meant for that and the HEMA guy gets ribs hit very hard while in padding that's got no hard points there.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Feb 3, 2020 20:02:57 GMT
When you become a one-trick pony and put all of your efforts into honing a single skill (in this case, speed), then when you encounter an opponent that can negate that skill, you've nothing left and you get rolled like a third world cigarette. I have no doubt that the gentlemen in the video can be very fast... when they have the opening. Otherwise, it's pretty much a game of chess to scope out your opponent and find their weakness without likewise giving away your own. When it comes to it, recognizing the opening and then making the decision to hit takes more time than actually moving the sword. If you want to be fast, learn to see.
It's been my experience that speed isn't developed by focusing on getting faster. Speed comes from good technique that is practiced to confidence. I learned this one random day when somebody pointed out how "fast" they thought I was and were astonished- but in my mind I wasn't doing anything special that anybody else couldn't do with a bit of training. I never felt I was "fast", maybe to a certain extent I am marginally competent, but I possess no special reflexes and I've never worked on "speed" as a stand alone training concept. I try to practice technique- and let that be my arsenal of tools.
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Post by leviathansteak on Feb 3, 2020 23:55:21 GMT
Over reliance or blind confidence in any one attribute is a recipe for disaster. Whether it be strength, speeed, reach, or even technique, when executed without understanding or athleticism.
In my experience, an indvidual exhibiting these beliefs may not be very experienced in sparring and may have a lack of understanding of tempo. Some speed is important and immensely useful, yes. But it is far more important to know WHEN to do something rather than throwing it out as fast as you can and hoping that your opponent has a slower reaction time than you.
But to give some credit, against an unprepared or inexperienced opponent, a continuous flurry of rapid attacks has a fair to good chance of working. Against an experienced opponent, maybe not.
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Post by MOK on Feb 4, 2020 5:48:56 GMT
Heck, "firestorm" tactics can work even against experienced opponents, as long as you know where you're going with it - and are actually going somewhere specific, rather than just flailing away at random - and remember to keep yourself covered all the while (keeping the opponent fully occupied with defending themselves is one way to keep yourself covered, of course).
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Post by vecna808 on Feb 4, 2020 16:54:03 GMT
Jesus guys you really are compensating here ( with the exception of MOK ) Do you think for one second I not interested in proper technique, in defending my lines coming in and out, in understanding feints ( not biting and throwing ) in all the subtleties that let me strike you and not be there for the reply ? Hmmm you just keep thinking I am a one trick pony, it suits me
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Post by Jordan Williams on Feb 4, 2020 17:09:20 GMT
Jesus guys you really are compensating here ( with the exception of MOK ) Do you think for one second I not interested in proper technique, in defending my lines coming in and out, in understanding feints ( not biting and throwing ) in all the subtleties that let me strike you and not be there for the reply ? Hmmm you just keep thinking I am a one trick pony, it suits me To be fair, that is how you presented yourself - with a focus on speed and getting in first. Anyways, what fencing/sword based MA have you done? Just curious.
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Post by vecna808 on Feb 4, 2020 17:24:52 GMT
When you become a one-trick pony and put all of your efforts into honing a single skill (in this case, speed), then when you encounter an opponent that can negate that skill, you've nothing left and you get rolled like a third world cigarette. I have no doubt that the gentlemen in the video can be very fast... when they have the opening. Otherwise, it's pretty much a game of chess to scope out your opponent and find their weakness without likewise giving away your own. When it comes to it, recognizing the opening and then making the decision to hit takes more time than actually moving the sword. If you want to be fast, learn to see. It's been my experience that speed isn't developed by focusing on getting faster. Speed comes from good technique that is practiced to confidence. I learned this one random day when somebody pointed out how "fast" they thought I was and were astonished- but in my mind I wasn't doing anything special that anybody else couldn't do with a bit of training. I never felt I was "fast", maybe to a certain extent I am marginally competent, but I possess no special reflexes and I've never worked on "speed" as a stand alone training concept. I try to practice technique- and let that be my arsenal of tools.
Nah, its a matter of how you train.
I train 70% of the time at full power full speed ( well just under to avoid the worst of the inevitable injuries) , all my sparing is at full power full speed , NO rules.
What you see on the video is not an uncontrolled flurry, it just looks that way cos your used to operating at a different pace.
As said before speed kills, if there is one single thread in this great weave of swordmanship, that can be thought of as most important, its speed: speed of movement, speed of reflexes, speed of thinking, just naked speed dude.
I can prove this 100 times over in real combat, if anyone wants to test their assumptions ?
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Post by MOK on Feb 4, 2020 17:35:17 GMT
Nobody spars with NO rules. You don't try to actually disable or kill your training partners, no matter how hard you train.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Feb 4, 2020 17:54:01 GMT
I survived 6 wars. Real ones. Eons ago when I was a skeeter wing Private, an old Vietnam era sergeant told me: "slow down, or your gonna get killed. Think first, then move.". It worked for him, it worked for me, and hopefully it's working for those that followed me. Good advice.
I'm not trying to be argumentative, really. But you came in here talking about speed and saying that you were faster than the guys in the video. We spoke about tactics- you said speed. We talked about technique- you said speed. We talked about many other things that swordsman need to know- and you only said speed. You will have to excuse us if that lead us to believe you were a one-trick pony: you simply haven't opened the door to discussing anything but speed (which I grant to you).
If you would like to discuss something other than speed, such as how to approach an unknown opponent, or how to disengage when you realize you're so far over your head he's playing with you, then perhaps start another thread on those topics.
For as far as I'm concerned, I have great respect for the gentlemen in the video sharing their sport with us. They looked to be having a lot of fun, and I commend them for that. Whether or not they can win in a real fight with naked blades and death being the prize for second place, I can't comment. Perhaps they aren't interested in that.
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Post by vecna808 on Feb 4, 2020 17:57:17 GMT
Jesus guys you really are compensating here ( with the exception of MOK ) Do you think for one second I not interested in proper technique, in defending my lines coming in and out, in understanding feints ( not biting and throwing ) in all the subtleties that let me strike you and not be there for the reply ? Hmmm you just keep thinking I am a one trick pony, it suits me To be fair, that is how you presented yourself - with a focus on speed and getting in first. Anyways, what fencing/sword based MA have you done? Just curious.
A bit of everything Lots of medieval reenactment ( not HEMA, ) , bit of kenjitsu, bit of kendo, a lot of fencing, a lot of ninjitsu. Tried Akido.
Only competition fencing was of any relevance ( to me ). Besides I had/have no fascination with Japanese culture ( other than their swords ) so learning from guys who insisted I wear traditional garb and talk Japanese became a bore. I am there to train to kill guys with a sword as brutally efficiently and quickly as possible, not to learn to drink tea.
Over the years I have ditched 90% of the crap have learned , now use a small subset that actually works at the speed and power I operate at.
Maybe its a new style now ? Ken-Fencing lol
"To be fair, that is how you presented yourself - with a focus on speed and getting in first. " You dont think I am going to lay all my cards on the table ? lol besides that exactly where the focus should be.
Have you ever been in a fight with someone a LOT faster than you ? I have, and skill, or belief in the force did not save me from a monumental ass wooping , and the morning at casualty.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Feb 4, 2020 18:06:46 GMT
To be fair, that is how you presented yourself - with a focus on speed and getting in first. Anyways, what fencing/sword based MA have you done? Just curious.
Over the years I have ditched 90% of the crap have learned , now use a small subset that actually works at the speed and power I operate at.
To this I agree, when we mature we tend to discard the things we don't use. At the end of the day, we end up using about 5 or 6 moves that we have mastered and are confident with. In a real fight, you probably won't get to use that many anyways. Simplicity is often the best way- it leaves the mind uncluttered from having to think about what to do, and leaves it free to decide when to do things. I don't go much in for the tea drinking parts either, although I don't look down on the people that do. If it makes them happy, then I'm all for it.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Feb 4, 2020 18:17:11 GMT
To be fair, that is how you presented yourself - with a focus on speed and getting in first. Anyways, what fencing/sword based MA have you done? Just curious.
A bit of everything Lots of medieval reenactment ( not HEMA, ) , bit of kenjitsu, bit of kendo, a lot of fencing, a lot of ninjitsu. Tried Akido.
Only competition fencing was of any relevance ( to me ). Besides I had/have no fascination with Japanese culture ( other than their swords ) so learning from guys who insisted I wear traditional garb and talk Japanese became a bore. I am there to train to kill guys with a sword as brutally efficiently and quickly as possible, not to learn to drink tea.
Over the years I have ditched 90% of the crap have learned , now use a small subset that actually works at the speed and power I operate at.
Maybe its a new style now ? Ken-Fencing lol
"To be fair, that is how you presented yourself - with a focus on speed and getting in first. " You dont think I am going to lay all my cards on the table ? lol besides that exactly where the focus should be.
Have you ever been in a fight with someone a LOT faster than you ? I have, and skill, or belief in the force did not save me from a monumental ass wooping , and the morning at casualty.
I have actually, both in recreational wrestling and fencing (which I use as an umbrella term for any sword art). What sort of competitions have you been able to attend and use your style of fencing in? If you're in the NV/NorCal area I think it would be interesting to meet up and spar.
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Post by vecna808 on Feb 4, 2020 18:24:04 GMT
I survived 6 wars. Real ones. Eons ago when I was a skeeter wing Private, an old Vietnam era sergeant told me: "slow down, or your gonna get killed. Think first, then move.". It worked for him, it worked for me, and hopefully it's working for those that followed me. Good advice. I'm not trying to be argumentative, really. But you came in here talking about speed and saying that you were faster than the guys in the video. We spoke about tactics- you said speed. We talked about technique- you said speed. We talked about many other things that swordsman need to know- and you only said speed. You will have to excuse us if that lead us to believe you were a one-trick pony: you simply haven't opened the door to discussing anything but speed (which I grant to you). If you would like to discuss something other than speed, such as how to approach an unknown opponent, or how to disengage when you realize you're so far over your head he's playing with you, then perhaps start another thread on those topics. For as far as I'm concerned, I have great respect for the gentlemen in the video sharing their sport with us. They looked to be having a lot of fun, and I commend them for that. Whether or not they can win in a real fight with naked blades and death being the prize for second place, I can't comment. Perhaps they aren't interested in that.
Nor am I ( tring to be argumentative) but I did talk about tactics as well ( well at least I think I did , its been a few posts ) and yes I hope/plan to open other posts on such things.
Yes I am faster than the guys in the video, I said so in my fist post, then was invited to prove it, which I did. thats where the speed thing comes from ( don get me wrong still believe its the most important element of a very big pot of elements) .
I am not putting anyone down, Im sorry if anyone sees it as such, Im stating matter of fact. Same with taking them, just matter of fact. When I was on the opposite side of equation it inspired me to get faster AND better , I hope whoever it is takes my ( and other such ) comments in the same way.
I am interested in western/eastern duels with ( preferably ) swords, little or no armor. Its not war lol. In fact lets face it swords has no bearing on self defece in modern society ( in fact since a sword can not cut chain mail, swords have no real place on a medieval battlefield. ).
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Post by Cosmoline on Feb 4, 2020 18:40:12 GMT
So what matches have you been in, what was the system, and what did you win? Proof is in the pudding. Otherwise..
You understand that people alter speed depending on the circumstances, right? A friendly HEMA vs Kendo match with synths and mixed gear pretty much requires that you're not going to go 100% or move into ringen. And posting a solo drill really means very little in this context. Uncontrolled blow storms usually result in a double kill at best. If you're interested in perfecting very high speed cuts for competition, I'd suggest SCA sword and board. Those guys have the fastest cuts I've encountered. But of course the shield makes it possible. Otherwise that kind of thing is suicidal.
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Post by vecna808 on Feb 4, 2020 20:07:51 GMT
Nobody spars with NO rules. You don't try to actually disable or kill your training partners, no matter how hard you train.
I would actually say the opposite, how the hell is anyone going to have confidence in a move if not tried at full speed/power against a equalish deadly opponent ?
If you do not actually do the experiment ( LOTS of times ) your just giving an educated guess.
And yes that why hard to find training partners, ( sadly ).
Obviously protection, and bokken only. Im not doing that s**t with any kind of metal. ( I do weight my bokken to 900gm, but not for sparring so it more like 600gm there, and round the end) even then there are bruises, but a bit of pain is a great way to learn quick
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Feb 4, 2020 20:10:08 GMT
Nobody spars with NO rules. You don't try to actually disable or kill your training partners, no matter how hard you train.
I would actually say the opposite, how the hell is anyone going to have confidence in a move if not tried at full speed/power against a equalish deadly opponent ?
If you do not actually do the experiment ( LOTS of times ) your just giving an educated guess.
And yes that why hard to find training partners, ( sadly ).
Obviously protection, and bokken only. Im not doing that s**t with any kind of metal. ( I do weight my bokken to 900gm, but not for sparring so it more like 600gm there, and round the end) even then there are bruises, but a bit of pain is a great way to learn quick
Sounds like you'd like the dog brothers. I look forward to seeing you in the next euro gathering highlight reel.
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