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Post by Timo Nieminen on May 28, 2018 1:14:37 GMT
Your points on spear make me curious how a glaive/naginata would compare. Seems almost like it would be a healthy middleground between the slicing and reach advantages of either weapon. Although the more intricate (and fun) flourishes of a large sword probably wouldn't be very common. I think so - halfway between the sword and spear. Must be time to link to my favourite naginata video again: It's a big heavy naginata! Which types of spear do you prefer? To frame in Greco-Roman typology, spears of hasta, pilum or sarissa length? I've mostly used a two-handed short spear. 7-8' long is good - still light and mobile, and plenty of reach over short weapons. Against another spear, a foot or 2 longer is good (which is the arms race that leads to pikes). But once you have about 3' more than the other spear, you don't gain anything by more length (other than undesirable weight and moment of inertia) - perhaps by 6-8' longer, the extra weight/rotational inertia brings you back down to equality. With a short spear, wings, lugs, parrying bars, hadome, etc. are good. You can also afford a longer, more cutting-capable, head. The longer the spear, the lighter (and therefore smaller) you want the head to be. One-handed spear with shield is an entirely different game.
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Post by zabazagobo on May 28, 2018 1:53:59 GMT
Your points on spear make me curious how a glaive/naginata would compare. Seems almost like it would be a healthy middleground between the slicing and reach advantages of either weapon. Although the more intricate (and fun) flourishes of a large sword probably wouldn't be very common. I think so - halfway between the sword and spear. Must be time to link to my favourite naginata video again: It's a big heavy naginata! Which types of spear do you prefer? To frame in Greco-Roman typology, spears of hasta, pilum or sarissa length? I've mostly used a two-handed short spear. 7-8' long is good - still light and mobile, and plenty of reach over short weapons. Against another spear, a foot or 2 longer is good (which is the arms race that leads to pikes). But once you have about 3' more than the other spear, you don't gain anything by more length (other than undesirable weight and moment of inertia) - perhaps by 6-8' longer, the extra weight/rotational inertia brings you back down to equality. With a short spear, wings, lugs, parrying bars, hadome, etc. are good. You can also afford a longer, more cutting-capable, head. The longer the spear, the lighter (and therefore smaller) you want the head to be. One-handed spear with shield is an entirely different game. That was an awesome demonstration, really impressed by the way the naginata flowed. The use of the rear of the shaft for strikes and parries is really smart and something I definitely haven't thought of before. Just seemed like a really effective system of combat. I'll be looking up naginata kata for a bit this evening, thanks for sharing this video.
Thanks for giving your preferences on spear length, provides some good specs to springboard off of. I've really liked winged spears a lot for their parrying and trapping abilities (plus they just look cool), the cold steel model has been tempting me for a while. I've always liked the longer spear heads like what is seen on yari for the cutting abilities, now if there was a yari for sale with wings/lugs, I'd be plain giddy.
For one handed spear, do you prefer going long or short? I've read about the advantages of going either way, what's your pick?
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Post by maro on May 28, 2018 3:02:39 GMT
There's just something really fun about swinging around a katana in each arm that seems to just flow off of the body's mechanics
Having trained with one for over 16 years, I find this statement odd. Unless you're truly ambidextrous, most people do not have the coordination to do this. Even Wakizashi + Katana tends to end up with the longer blade hitting the shorter. If you watch any Nito kata, it's very much NOT what you'd expect as they are very careful at moving the blades away from each other. I prefer using these kinds of weapons in pairs since it seems to afford a better range of motion and circumvents the katana's blindspots (single edged, shorter, no pommel to manipulate for rapid directional shifting).Again, Katana are not short - if you're finding that, you aren't using one that's sized to you. Moving a Katana is very easy when you know how.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on May 28, 2018 4:44:51 GMT
[I've always liked the longer spear heads like what is seen on yari for the cutting abilities, now if there was a yari for sale with wings/lugs, I'd be plain giddy. Like these? For one handed spear, do you prefer going long or short? I've read about the advantages of going either way, what's your pick? Haven't done any significant sparring with one, so don't have much to base it on. I have a nice complete spear from the Congo basin, about 4' total length, which would work well as a short one-handed stabbing spear. For a two-handed spear, 6-8' is short, and 16' is long. For a one-handed spear, 3' is short, and 8-10' is long.
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Post by zabazagobo on May 28, 2018 5:38:51 GMT
[I've always liked the longer spear heads like what is seen on yari for the cutting abilities, now if there was a yari for sale with wings/lugs, I'd be plain giddy. Like these? For one handed spear, do you prefer going long or short? I've read about the advantages of going either way, what's your pick? Haven't done any significant sparring with one, so don't have much to base it on. I have a nice complete spear from the Congo basin, about 4' total length, which would work well as a short one-handed stabbing spear. For a two-handed spear, 6-8' is short, and 16' is long. For a one-handed spear, 3' is short, and 8-10' is long. Yep, exactly like the one in the picture on the left. That's my favorite design for a spear blade, sadly have never seen one for sale. Such a beautiful style of weapon.
I've always thought the shorter spear styles out of Africa were of a pretty cool design as well. The short one you mentioned having from the Congo sounds like a cool find.
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Post by zabazagobo on May 28, 2018 5:55:14 GMT
There's just something really fun about swinging around a katana in each arm that seems to just flow off of the body's mechanics
Having trained with one for over 16 years, I find this statement odd. Unless you're truly ambidextrous, most people do not have the coordination to do this. Even Wakizashi + Katana tends to end up with the longer blade hitting the shorter. If you watch any Nito kata, it's very much NOT what you'd expect as they are very careful at moving the blades away from each other. I prefer using these kinds of weapons in pairs since it seems to afford a better range of motion and circumvents the katana's blindspots (single edged, shorter, no pommel to manipulate for rapid directional shifting).Again, Katana are not short - if you're finding that, you aren't using one that's sized to you. Moving a Katana is very easy when you know how. I never have issues with getting two katana tied up, so maybe I am on the spectrum for the ambidextrous. Not sure though, my left handed signature gets a star for effort and red ink for results.
Katana are pretty short in comparison to other two handed blades. Compared to the average spectrum of longsword (say 36 in. +/- 2 in.) the average spectrum of katana (27 in. +/- 2 in.) is significantly shorter. Comparing a katana to a zweihander, montante or anything else with a blade around 4/4.5 feet, they're pretty tiny. To be fair, compared to a gladius, dao, kris, etc. they could be considered fairly long. But even compared to a dedicated single handed sword like a jian or an arming sword, katana are often the same size or shorter.
I've found that a katana with a 27-ish inch blade works best for me, most comfortable length for iai. That being said, I prefer longswords with at least 35 in. of length, although up to 40 in. seems to be a good length for me. So by comparison, the appropriate katana size for me is pretty darn short.
I agree moving katana is very easy once you get the hang of it, with the way they're balanced they really just flow. That's why they're my favorite style of sword and using two of them feels completely natural to me.
Not sure what you meant by "if you watch any Nito kata, it's very much NOT what you'd expect as they are very careful at moving the blades away from each other", could you elaborate? Also, 16 years is an impressive amount of time spent on this art. What styles have you been practicing?
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Zen_Hydra
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Born with a heart full of neutrality
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Post by Zen_Hydra on May 28, 2018 17:20:20 GMT
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Post by maro on May 29, 2018 3:48:23 GMT
<abbr data-timestamp="1527486914000" class="o-timestamp time" title="May 28, 2018 15:55:14 GMT 10">May 28, 2018 15:55:14 GMT 10</abbr> zabazagobo said: Katana are pretty short in comparison to other two handed blades. As I said, you're sword length is dictated by you, not the art. Remember, most production swords are made to a "standard size" and are usually too short for people taller than 5' 10"
I've found that a katana with a 27-ish inch blade works best for me, most comfortable length for iai. That being said, I prefer longswords with at least 35 in. of length, although up to 40 in. seems to be a good length for me. So by comparison, the appropriate katana size for me is pretty darn short.
I'm 6' and use a 32" Shinken - that's the correct length for me. TBH, give or take a few inches and that's the same length as most hand and half swords.
If you're tall enough to handle a longsword at 35" then you can handle a longer blade for iai (I can easily noto a 38-40" Shinken.
Not sure what you meant by "if you watch any Nito kata, it's very much NOT what you'd expect as they are very careful at moving the blades away from each other", could you elaborate? Also, 16 years is an impressive amount of time spent on this art. What styles have you been practicing?
Most Nito schools rarely swing both swords at the same time - it's a very regimented approach. Lucky that you are ambidextrous, most people are not and it is hard for the brain to move 2 swords at the same time.
Me? I'm a Godan in Nakamura Ryu Battodo. In truth it's my obsession!
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Post by zabazagobo on May 29, 2018 4:33:37 GMT
<abbr data-timestamp="1527486914000" class="o-timestamp time" title="May 28, 2018 15:55:14 GMT 10">May 28, 2018 15:55:14 GMT 10</abbr> zabazagobo said: Katana are pretty short in comparison to other two handed blades. As I said, you're sword length is dictated by you, not the art. Remember, most production swords are made to a "standard size" and are usually too short for people taller than 5' 10"
I've found that a katana with a 27-ish inch blade works best for me, most comfortable length for iai. That being said, I prefer longswords with at least 35 in. of length, although up to 40 in. seems to be a good length for me. So by comparison, the appropriate katana size for me is pretty darn short.
I'm 6' and use a 32" Shinken - that's the correct length for me. TBH, give or take a few inches and that's the same length as most hand and half swords.
If you're tall enough to handle a longsword at 35" then you can handle a longer blade for iai (I can easily noto a 38-40" Shinken.
Not sure what you meant by "if you watch any Nito kata, it's very much NOT what you'd expect as they are very careful at moving the blades away from each other", could you elaborate? Also, 16 years is an impressive amount of time spent on this art. What styles have you been practicing?
Most Nito schools rarely swing both swords at the same time - it's a very regimented approach. Lucky that you are ambidextrous, most people are not and it is hard for the brain to move 2 swords at the same time.
Me? I'm a Godan in Nakamura Ryu Battodo. In truth it's my obsession! Nice, I've always respected Nakamura-ryu as a pretty pragmatic system. The founder was a really smart swordsman, focused on the essentials and trimmed the fluff. Have a lot of respect for that mindset and his style has a really refined and elegant simplicity.
I can relate to your chosen art being your obsession, I practice my bastardized form of niten ichi ryu religiously, if I practice less than a dozen hours a week I feel like I'm screwing up. Maybe I took Musashi too literally with his views on self-reliance and practicing your own system that works for you, but hey it's fun.
It's kind of weird, but for me it's almost harder to utilize only one sword in a sense. With two, it's kind of like hand to hand combat where you are able to extend each arm for strikes, blocks, etc. With one sword, it's still an extremely effective system but it doesn't seem as versatile as your hands are together rather than apart. This perspective likely stems from the fact I need to practice with only one sword more often.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on May 31, 2018 20:51:52 GMT
I discovered another one of the Hand Protector’s secrets and thought I’ll share. Here is a brief video showing a cut coming in that I parry then counter attack. It works against #1 and #6 cuts (British Mil System) and a single edge blade. I originally posted this in my review but it might fit in here.
The move is simple enough. I parry with the sword’s forte, swivel the wrist around bringing my sword in under the adversary’s. The adversary’s blade will ride across the back of my hand, hence the importance the hand protector. As I come in I push the adversary’s blade out of the way, an easy move as while I am working with the forte of my sword and swivelling my wrist I am sliding it towards the adversary’s foible and am stepping out. I finish with giving a cut or point. There are variations but the video will give the basics. I should have given Hazel the 18” machete as that 26” appears too much for her. She would hardly swing it and looking at the video I see that she was supporting it on her hip. I didn’t notice when making the video because my attention was on the blade itself and what it was doing.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2018 3:46:22 GMT
pgandy, that's cool. I have something you may have already found to add or rather expand on that technique. I wish my training partner were closer but I will see if I can make up a video regardless. It's using the handle to trap the opponent and unbalance them. Your initial contact and roll over is unchanged this just lets you acquire their center of gravity a bit quicker.
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Post by Cosmoline on Jun 4, 2018 18:36:22 GMT
I discovered another one of the Hand Protector’s secrets and thought I’ll share. Here is a brief video showing a cut coming in that I parry then counter attack. It works against #1 and #6 cuts (British Mil System) and a single edge blade. I originally posted this in my review but it might fit in here. The move is simple enough. I parry with the sword’s forte, swivel the wrist around bringing my sword in under the adversary’s. The adversary’s blade will ride across the back of my hand, hence the importance the hand protector. As I come in I push the adversary’s blade out of the way, an easy move as while I am working with the forte of my sword and swivelling my wrist I am sliding it towards the adversary’s foible and am stepping out. I finish with giving a cut or point. There are variations but the video will give the basics. I should have given Hazel the 18” machete as that 26” appears too much for her. She would hardly swing it and looking at the video I see that she was supporting it on her hip. I didn’t notice when making the video because my attention was on the blade itself and what it was doing.
The problem I see is that, as he pushes around the blade the opponent can presumably drive down and take his hand at the wrist. But I can't see the whole blades.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2018 23:32:25 GMT
From the initial point of contact pgandy maintains a check on the blade until it falls outside his silhouette. There are of course things that the opponent could do, having strong positioning will make their efforts difficult.
An idea to add would be hooking the opponent's hand between the bottom portion of your grip and the ulna. You don't need much handle length to achieve this. As you level the tip of your sword at them you draw them off balance and can stab the face or slice to the side of the throat - or if the weapon is long enough even lay it on the side of their neck and get a nice little arm bar so you can lever them down if you decide to be kind and gentle. If you're not so kind and gentle you can give a good break or dislocation.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jun 5, 2018 4:03:06 GMT
The problem I see is that, as he pushes around the blade the opponent can presumably drive down and take his hand at the wrist. But I can't see the whole blades.
I see little chance of that. I stop the incoming strike. My sword is also dead but I avoid a bind. There is still momentum in my arm that does not stop, it continues and I pass my hand under her blade which is blocked by my blade, swivelling the wrist around allowing her blade to ride over the hand protector and keeping pressure on her blade restricting its use, while I close passing her elbow. I am also pushing her hindering her turning ability. An upper arm grab works similarly. At all times from the initial contact of the blades until I am about even with her elbow not only do I have contact with her blade but am pushing it away from me. I feel there is little chance for her to break free and reverse the direction of travel of her blade. Like I said there are variations but that is the basic move and is enabled due to the Hand Protector that Epic Armoury produces. Without that the move would not work. I am finding it to be a dandy piece of equipment and am more than glad that I reconsidered buying it. Maybe I should also point out that normally the move would go faster than shown in the first part of the video. We weren’t doing that at full speed. Although she was using the spine it had a very sharp blade. That machete, even using the spine is harder than that wooden sword and would have banged it up some at full speed. And thought the parry could be seen and understood better. When I watched the video I decided the last part didn’t hold up so I kept reducing the speed down to 25%, but perhaps should have gone slower.
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Post by Cosmoline on Jun 5, 2018 18:41:43 GMT
If the camera were back a bit it would be easier to figure out I think .
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Post by Dalin Caulder on Jun 6, 2018 17:54:37 GMT
I have been fighting in the SCA for 15+ years now. I have spent most my time doing Italian rapier fencing and most recently discovered Regimental/Highland Broadsword as described by Christopher Scott Thompson.
1. 16th and 17th century Italian Rapier (and Dagger) - I have always loved the rapier, the style the finesses. I have been fighting for 15 years with the SCA and have fallen in love with Rapier and Dagger. It feels right to me, being able to parry quickly with the dagger and fight from a distance with the Rapier.
2. Regimental Broadsword - I have been training through an online program for Regimental Broadsword. a simplistic technique used to train 18th/19th century British soldiers how to use a sword in close combat. I love the simplicity of it and the style of it.
3. Highland Broadsword (with secondary weapons) - The real reason I got into the Regimental broadsword is to get into Cut and Thrust within the SCA. I look forward to learning what Christopher Scott Thompson refers to as "Old STyle" Scottish Broadsword. This is what people imagine when they thing of the Scots Charging the English in the 1745 Jacobite Rebellion. I look forward to learning this style in single sword but also learning to us a Targe, Dagger and Cudgel.
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Post by zabazagobo on Jun 8, 2018 21:00:25 GMT
I have been fighting in the SCA for 15+ years now. I have spent most my time doing Italian rapier fencing and most recently discovered Regimental/Highland Broadsword as described by Christopher Scott Thompson. 1. 16th and 17th century Italian Rapier (and Dagger) - I have always loved the rapier, the style the finesses. I have been fighting for 15 years with the SCA and have fallen in love with Rapier and Dagger. It feels right to me, being able to parry quickly with the dagger and fight from a distance with the Rapier. 2. Regimental Broadsword - I have been training through an online program for Regimental Broadsword. a simplistic technique used to train 18th/19th century British soldiers how to use a sword in close combat. I love the simplicity of it and the style of it. 3. Highland Broadsword (with secondary weapons) - The real reason I got into the Regimental broadsword is to get into Cut and Thrust within the SCA. I look forward to learning what Christopher Scott Thompson refers to as "Old STyle" Scottish Broadsword. This is what people imagine when they thing of the Scots Charging the English in the 1745 Jacobite Rebellion. I look forward to learning this style in single sword but also learning to us a Targe, Dagger and Cudgel. Fun choices, what made you settle on Italian rapier over the others? I've been considering about more seriously practicing with rapier lately and would be interested to hear what you enjoy the about the style and how it compares to others.
Broadsword and dagger would be a fun time (seems like you're a big fan of using a dagger in your off-hand), I should give it a swing sometime. What is it about using a dagger as a secondary weapon that you like the best? I usually prefer to use two similarly sized weapons for symmetry so I'd value your input on why you enjoy/prefer using a smaller weapon in your off-hand.
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Post by Dalin Caulder on Jun 11, 2018 17:42:40 GMT
Fun choices, what made you settle on Italian rapier over the others? I've been considering about more seriously practicing with rapier lately and would be interested to hear what you enjoy the about the style and how it compares to others.
Broadsword and dagger would be a fun time (seems like you're a big fan of using a dagger in your off-hand), I should give it a swing sometime. What is it about using a dagger as a secondary weapon that you like the best? I usually prefer to use two similarly sized weapons for symmetry so I'd value your input on why you enjoy/prefer using a smaller weapon in your off-hand.
I started sword fighting through the SCA. The SCA focuses primarily it seems on Italian fencing, so that is the style I have primarily been trained in. In the SCA it seems the other styles are secondary and only used by a few specialists in the SCA. I enjoy the point control and the finesse of Italian rapier. When I first started in the SCA there was rapier combat (mostly Italian) or Armored Combat (think medieval broadsword), and I chose Italian rapier more for the perceived intelligence of it over the smashy smashy (perceived)of Armored combat. I know now there is a lot going on tactics wise with armored combat then first perceived. Dagger as a secondary weapon gives me control on the parry. That is my favourite part of it. Regardless of where on the blade I parry a sword I generally have control. I have found fighting Case (paired sword) my off hand is less co-ordinated and tires way too fast. I am faster on the parry and have more stamina with the shorter weapon. Also fighting with paired swords people (even those very experienced) will eventually put the two swords on the same plane. in that moment I swipe my sword across (sweeping both their weapons to the side), transfer the parry to the dagger and thrust with the rapier.
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Jun 12, 2018 17:32:27 GMT
The one where I will win.
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Ifrit
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More edgy than a double edge sword
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Post by Ifrit on Jun 13, 2018 1:44:38 GMT
Longsword, saber and spear. If spear doesn't count, then sword and shield
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