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Post by howler on May 22, 2018 22:21:12 GMT
I personally would pick effectiveness (suppose it would be open field duel) at 3, 2, 1, in that order, and would be most intrigued with rapier/main gauche vs. longsword matchup. I'd go single katana vs duel as I'm no good with single katana and would chop off me naughty bits by even attempting the impressive feat of swinging two katana. Hmm, I agree with ranking by effectiveness, but not sure I'd put rapier first. It definitely has reach and impressive lunges, but it kind of lacks stopping power and I don't think it'd be that difficult to bind and gain control of it using a sword with more heft. I could see anything from a longsword to a claymore to katana having certain advantages over the rapier in this regard. But rapier "sniping" (for lack of a more technical term) is just such good fun that it's hard to call a rapier anything but effective, until it gets batted around or overwhelmed by a more robust sword that is.
The longsword vs. rapier & main gauche is a fun prospect. I've yet to ever spar in such a fashion (hope to sometime soon), but it would be a really interesting idea. I would guess the longsword could bat away and gain control of the rapier fairly easily, only to then have to contend with the main gauche; it'd be interesting to see if a main gauche holds up as such a great defensive weapon against heavier opposition. I'm sure it would do fine, but then the rapier wouldn't be of much use at a closer range, so it'd be interesting to see how the rapier user would respond to the longsword when in close quarters. Really fun scenario, too bad we can't test it out. I have heard (and understand) that same critique/concern (stopping power) from others, but think a "run through" (vs. minor poke) would be a devastating game ender. I'm mainly thinking large heavy rapiers (3lbs.) in my thought experiment (so some binding power and not so easy to knock around), and know that these things existed at the time of all the other weapon types in some form (longsword, polearm, side sword, etc...), though some were phasing out, at least I heard that from Scholagladiatoria on YouTube. You would want to use the longer heavier main gauche to at least minimize your valid statement of dealing with heavier opposition. Of course this is all thinking duel (and you would have to think to the death or major incapacitation), so when you get into military and particularly melee, your concerns on rapier take off, as the duel was the rapiers specialty, so it (in my opinion) takes a major hit on general usage, and against multiple opponents. This is a great topic and fun to contemplate the matchups...if only in our minds, as a large rapier/dagger vs. katana duel to incapacitation (for instance) has probably never been done, or at least recorded. I have heavy rapier, main gauche, infantry and cav. saber, longsword, arming sword, spear, short spear, halberd, billhook, katana, ko-katana, large messer, so I like them all and they have their niche. Still, gotta get me a backsword. Oh, I forgot about shield...disregard everything I just said.  |
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Post by Jordan Williams on May 22, 2018 22:28:06 GMT
Jordan Williams interesting how you mention the longsword feeling restrictive...is that from using two hands on the grip and related posture dynamics?
Also a lot of love for sabres. For the sabre enthusiasts, is it ever part of the practice to utilize a second weapon (anything from a dagger to another sabre)? Also, what do you enjoy about the dynamics of the saber?
Both, with a one handed sword I can use a free hand for anything. Grappling, off hand weapon, grabbing your opponent's arm or wrist mid swing (I've done this and had this happen to me) all without losing any balance or anything like that with a one handed sword. I enjoy the fact that most sabres can cut as well as thrust, and are a dedicated one handed sword, have excellent (in Europe at least) hand protection and don't require an off hand weapon or item to contend with most other weapon styles. I know that there are manuals in existence that see the usage of a dagger or buckler with sabre, sabre and dagger is actually a fairly hard thing to combat against. I tried sabre and buckler and found it quite a good combo as well. I don't know the names of the manuals but the other fellow who does sabre in my club has studied from or at least read from them. |
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Post by howler on May 22, 2018 22:41:46 GMT
Jordan Williams interesting how you mention the longsword feeling restrictive...is that from using two hands on the grip and related posture dynamics?
Also a lot of love for sabres. For the sabre enthusiasts, is it ever part of the practice to utilize a second weapon (anything from a dagger to another sabre)? Also, what do you enjoy about the dynamics of the saber?
Both, with a one handed sword I can use a free hand for anything. Grappling, off hand weapon, grabbing your opponent's arm or wrist mid swing (I've done this and had this happen to me) all without losing any balance or anything like that with a one handed sword. I enjoy the fact that most sabres can cut as well as thrust, and are a dedicated one handed sword, have excellent (in Europe at least) hand protection and don't require an off hand weapon or item to contend with most other weapon styles. I know that there are manuals in existence that see the usage of a dagger or buckler with sabre, sabre and dagger is actually a fairly hard thing to combat against. I tried sabre and buckler and found it quite a good combo as well. I don't know the names of the manuals but the other fellow who does sabre in my club has studied from or at least read from them. I have also pondered the saber with dagger combination, and think it doable but with more practice, as your swinging more than rapier/main gauche combo, which is mostly thrusting. Man, the whole large shield thing is a real mystery can of worms regarding matchups. A saber alone is just a real good general pick due to portability (sidearm) on a belt and hand protection, and this probably explains its existence in the last days of sword usage. |
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on May 22, 2018 22:50:02 GMT
I finally did it. Practicing 1st Ward with sword/butler and clipped my elbow. I’ll wear my light gambeson from now on like that little voice in the back of my mind had told me to do several times. First blood with that sword and it’s mine. RATS!! I heard a noise and looked down and it's Odie, my dog, cleaning the floor for me. Guess he doesn't like looking at my blood either.
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Post by Jordan Williams on May 22, 2018 22:55:43 GMT
Both, with a one handed sword I can use a free hand for anything. Grappling, off hand weapon, grabbing your opponent's arm or wrist mid swing (I've done this and had this happen to me) all without losing any balance or anything like that with a one handed sword. I enjoy the fact that most sabres can cut as well as thrust, and are a dedicated one handed sword, have excellent (in Europe at least) hand protection and don't require an off hand weapon or item to contend with most other weapon styles. I know that there are manuals in existence that see the usage of a dagger or buckler with sabre, sabre and dagger is actually a fairly hard thing to combat against. I tried sabre and buckler and found it quite a good combo as well. I don't know the names of the manuals but the other fellow who does sabre in my club has studied from or at least read from them. I have also pondered the saber with dagger combination, and think it doable but with more practice, as your swinging more than rapier/main gauche combo, which is mostly thrusting. Man, the whole large shield thing is a real mystery can of worms regarding matchups. A saber alone is just a real good general pick due to portability (sidearm) on a belt and hand protection, and this probably explains its existence in the last days of sword usage. The sabre and dagger combo doesn't use a main gauche I think, the dagger I was told is a more heavy instrument at around 2 feet long and held along the left forearm, upside down. |
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Post by Jordan Williams on May 22, 2018 23:02:20 GMT
I finally doed it. Practicing 1st Ward with sword/butler and clipped my elbow. I’ll wear my light gambeson from now on like that little voice in the back of my mind had told me to do several times. First blood with that sword and it’s mine. RATS!! I heard a noise and looked down and it's Odie, my dog, cleaning the floor for me. Guess he doesn't like looking at my blood either. The first time I had a sharp sword I decided to slip it into my belt, and then when I was walking dragged my heel across the edge. Thank goodness Windlass puts their secondary bevels as it produced a fairly wide wound. Lots of blood and hopping around cussing myself out. |
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Post by legacyofthesword on May 22, 2018 23:43:06 GMT
Shields are massively underrated, which is odd because they were essential equipment for any soldier/warrior throughout the entire pre-gunpowder age. Large shield plus short sword (gladius and scutum) is a personal favorite of mine. The shield is the main weapon, you shove it up against your opponent and tangle his weapons up (as well as throwing him of balance), and to finish just slip the short sword around and stab/slash whatever you can reach. The best part is, the giant shield gives you excellent protection the entire time.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on May 23, 2018 0:31:57 GMT
... but it restricts your own range of motion, your visibility, greatly restricts your grappling, can be used by the opponent as a lever, can be trapped, hooked, pinned, and is a PITA to carry around.
If it's likely that there will be arrows coming your way, don't leave home without it! Unless you have some other way of stopping those arrows. Absent arrows, the cons can outweigh the pros. There's a reason why bucklers are much more common for civilians than big shields, and no-shield is also a common EDC option.
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Post by howler on May 23, 2018 1:00:31 GMT
I have also pondered the saber with dagger combination, and think it doable but with more practice, as your swinging more than rapier/main gauche combo, which is mostly thrusting. Man, the whole large shield thing is a real mystery can of worms regarding matchups. A saber alone is just a real good general pick due to portability (sidearm) on a belt and hand protection, and this probably explains its existence in the last days of sword usage. The sabre and dagger combo doesn't use a main gauche I think, the dagger I was told is a more heavy instrument at around 2 feet long and held along the left forearm, upside down. Very interesting, like praying mantis style. That holding style seems like it would get less in the way less, and would be a result of the swinging nature of the saber. |
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Post by howler on May 23, 2018 1:02:55 GMT
Shields are massively underrated, which is odd because they were essential equipment for any soldier/warrior throughout the entire pre-gunpowder age. Large shield plus short sword (gladius and scutum) is a personal favorite of mine. The shield is the main weapon, you shove it up against your opponent and tangle his weapons up (as well as throwing him of balance), and to finish just slip the short sword around and stab/slash whatever you can reach. The best part is, the giant shield gives you excellent protection the entire time. And when you get well coordinated rows upon rows of those shields...you take over the known world and keep it that way for quite some time. |
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Post by legacyofthesword on May 23, 2018 1:59:05 GMT
... but it restricts your own range of motion, your visibility, greatly restricts your grappling, can be used by the opponent as a lever, can be trapped, hooked, pinned, and is a PITA to carry around. If it's likely that there will be arrows coming your way, don't leave home without it! Unless you have some other way of stopping those arrows. Absent arrows, the cons can outweigh the pros. There's a reason why bucklers are much more common for civilians than big shields, and no-shield is also a common EDC option. True, but the same can be said for quite a lot of other weapons/armor. And yes, people have always sacrificed combat ability for convenience. Hence why pistols rather than shotguns or rifles are the carry weapon of choice in the modern world, and while people chose to carry a single sword (and probably dagger) rather than a halbred and helmet for EDC in the old days. |
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Post by Timo Nieminen on May 23, 2018 2:18:47 GMT
Without doubt, shields can be good. Rather more doubt as to whether giant shields are always good. It isn't just an EDC vs battlefield thing, either - cavalry often used mid-sized shields in battle, about 24" or so, and infantry would use them too. I never found giant shields harder to fight against than smaller ones (never used them myself - I like 22-24" myself), so I don't feel that they're any better one-on-one. But tactics matter a lot. You can't do a good shield wall with 24" shields, so that can drive infantry shields to the larger end of things. And the more arrows and things like that coming in, the more you want a bigger shield. As far as one-on-one, no missiles, I like things like the bottom weapon here:  Not very good for stopping arrows though. |
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Post by wlewisiii on May 23, 2018 2:24:31 GMT
I have also pondered the saber with dagger combination, and think it doable but with more practice, as your swinging more than rapier/main gauche combo, which is mostly thrusting. Man, the whole large shield thing is a real mystery can of worms regarding matchups. A saber alone is just a real good general pick due to portability (sidearm) on a belt and hand protection, and this probably explains its existence in the last days of sword usage. The sabre and dagger combo doesn't use a main gauche I think, the dagger I was told is a more heavy instrument at around 2 feet long and held along the left forearm, upside down. Oh, now that's an interesting thought. My Windlass Cobra Kindjal would do well that way. I'll have to see how that works for me. |
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Post by Jordan Williams on May 23, 2018 2:57:46 GMT
Without doubt, shields can be good. Rather more doubt as to whether giant shields are always good. It isn't just an EDC vs battlefield thing, either - cavalry often used mid-sized shields in battle, about 24" or so, and infantry would use them too. I never found giant shields harder to fight against than smaller ones (never used them myself - I like 22-24" myself), so I don't feel that they're any better one-on-one. But tactics matter a lot. You can't do a good shield wall with 24" shields, so that can drive infantry shields to the larger end of things. And the more arrows and things like that coming in, the more you want a bigger shield. As far as one-on-one, no missiles, I like things like the bottom weapon here: Not very good for stopping arrows though. Timo - what is that? That looks super interesting and I've never seen something like that. |
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Post by Timo Nieminen on May 23, 2018 3:06:50 GMT
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Post by howler on May 23, 2018 3:20:22 GMT
The sabre and dagger combo doesn't use a main gauche I think, the dagger I was told is a more heavy instrument at around 2 feet long and held along the left forearm, upside down. Oh, now that's an interesting thought. My Windlass Cobra Kindjal would do well that way. I'll have to see how that works for me. And I believe that is also somewhat how some traditionally wielded the Qamas (like the Windlass I purchased). |
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Post by howler on May 23, 2018 3:21:57 GMT
With that handguard to protect while parrying. |
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Post by Jordan Williams on May 23, 2018 3:32:20 GMT
That is very nice. I want to try and make a sparring one to see how they work. |
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Post by legacyofthesword on May 23, 2018 3:35:01 GMT
Without doubt, shields can be good. Rather more doubt as to whether giant shields are always good. It isn't just an EDC vs battlefield thing, either - cavalry often used mid-sized shields in battle, about 24" or so, and infantry would use them too. I never found giant shields harder to fight against than smaller ones (never used them myself - I like 22-24" myself), so I don't feel that they're any better one-on-one. But tactics matter a lot. You can't do a good shield wall with 24" shields, so that can drive infantry shields to the larger end of things. And the more arrows and things like that coming in, the more you want a bigger shield. As far as one-on-one, no missiles, I like things like the bottom weapon here: Not very good for stopping arrows though. Good points. Still, I find it interesting that giant shields were used extensively throughout various cultures and time periods - Zulus, Sumerians, Romans, Mycenaeans/Minoans, Celts, etc.. Obviously smaller shields were also used too (by the same or other cultures). Indian weapons are awesome; some of the most awesome, lethal, wicked looking weapons come out of India. |
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Post by howler on May 23, 2018 3:43:34 GMT
Without doubt, shields can be good. Rather more doubt as to whether giant shields are always good. It isn't just an EDC vs battlefield thing, either - cavalry often used mid-sized shields in battle, about 24" or so, and infantry would use them too. I never found giant shields harder to fight against than smaller ones (never used them myself - I like 22-24" myself), so I don't feel that they're any better one-on-one. But tactics matter a lot. You can't do a good shield wall with 24" shields, so that can drive infantry shields to the larger end of things. And the more arrows and things like that coming in, the more you want a bigger shield. As far as one-on-one, no missiles, I like things like the bottom weapon here: Not very good for stopping arrows though. Good points. Still, I find it interesting that giant shields were used extensively throughout various cultures and time periods - Zulus, Sumerians, Romans, Mycenaeans/Minoans, Celts, etc.. Obviously smaller shields were also used too (by the same or other cultures). Indian weapons are awesome; some of the most awesome, lethal, wicked looking weapons come out of India. Anyone using the shield wall concept would want a big one, I think, particularly for anything coming at you in the air or toward you on the ground (arrows, spears, rocks, oil, rolling objects on fire, hordes of troops, the list goes on). You were right in that it often started with the large shield and they built around it, as it made the Roman Legion. Maybe it is best in duels to use mid sized, and there have been good reasons, but this (shields) is, to a degree, a neglected subject. |
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