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Post by zabazagobo on May 21, 2018 23:34:50 GMT
Thought it might be fun to start a conversation on members' favorite systems of swordplay and other martial arts/historical combat weapons. Could be fun to get into some good discussion on preferences on styles and systems of swordplay and why we prefer our favored weaponry and techniques (and to also derail with any and all somewhat relevant tangents, that's always a good time).
To kick off the topic, I'll briefly ramble about my top three picks.
1. A pair of katana
I love using katanas in pairs. While it's more historically common to see a wakizashi paired with a katana, I do find that using a lighter weight katana in the weaker arm alleviates the added stress of the length while still affording more reach and power than a typical wakizashi. There's just something really fun about swinging around a katana in each arm that seems to just flow off of the body's mechanics (I've noticed the techniques I practice translate really well to hand to hand maneuvers). This approach also seems to lend itself significantly towards effective parries and blocks, as I find that most of the forms I practice tend to gravitate towards closing distance and emphasizing defense and offense with synchronized movements.
I prefer using these kinds of weapons in pairs since it seems to afford a better range of motion and circumvents the katana's blindspots (single edged, shorter, no pommel to manipulate for rapid directional shifting). A single katana by itself has a number of shortcomings that just seem easily remedied by using two of them at once, so it just seems to be too logical to use Japanese styled blades in pairs. Plus, unlike a designated single handed sword, the grip length of a katana is conducive towards powerful cutting which is a nice bit of added versatility. As to why katana get such nice long grips while a lot of longswords have shorter 7-ish inch grips is beyond me.
2. A good ol' longsword
I really like a good, fairly long (around 40 in. give or take a couple inches) solidly weighted longswords with longer handles. The longsword is just a beast of a weapon that seems to tackle whatever is in front of it with ease. I love wheel shaped and disc pommels since they're really easy to manipulate with the palm and orient the blade in different angles rather quickly. I've yet to formally study a specific school of longsword fencing (although I do like what I've seen demonstrated by folks on 'team Meyer', to phrase it colloquially), but I've found myself appreciating a single longsword over a single katana enormously. All the angles of attack and that superb sensation of using the pommel for fast re-orientation is just too much fun. Plus swinging around something like Hanwei's antiqued bastard sword is a great workout and feels all sorts of good. I used to enjoy using a single katana, but a good longsword seems like such a robust weapon that since getting the hang of it I haven't looked back. I guess my preferred set of equipment would be a pair of katana at the side and a longsword on the back, for fun and versatility.
3. A rapier and dagger
I really have to tip my hat to the combination of rapier and dagger. I don't practice with this style too much, but when I do I feel almost like it's cheating. The rapier's reach is just insane and a well designed main gauche is sort of the Talhoffer buckler of daggers, so the two form this almost anti-climatic pair of lethal weaponry. I really love how the rapier has so much reach yet is so easy to keep on point/ on-line given the balance, although I do wish it had a bit more weight for the cut (although that would likely make it unmanageable with one hand). I don't really care for a rapier by itself since it seems to have some shortcomings with defense (poor leverage for parrying and blocking), but with a dagger (or maybe a cloak) it seems to be a recipe for success. Plus connecting a sudden thrust from an "unthreatening" posture is just too satisfying.
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Post by howler on May 22, 2018 0:12:55 GMT
Thought it might be fun to start a conversation on members' favorite systems of swordplay and other martial arts/historical combat weapons. Could be fun to get into some good discussion on preferences on styles and systems of swordplay and why we prefer our favored weaponry and techniques (and to also derail with any and all somewhat relevant tangents, that's always a good time). To kick off the topic, I'll briefly ramble about my top three picks. 1. A pair of katana I love using katanas in pairs. While it's more historically common to see a wakizashi paired with a katana, I do find that using a lighter weight katana in the weaker arm alleviates the added stress of the length while still affording more reach and power than a typical wakizashi. There's just something really fun about swinging around a katana in each arm that seems to just flow off of the body's mechanics (I've noticed the techniques I practice translate really well to hand to hand maneuvers). This approach also seems to lend itself significantly towards effective parries and blocks, as I find that most of the forms I practice tend to gravitate towards closing distance and emphasizing defense and offense with synchronized movements. I prefer using these kinds of weapons in pairs since it seems to afford a better range of motion and circumvents the katana's blindspots (single edged, shorter, no pommel to manipulate for rapid directional shifting). A single katana by itself has a number of shortcomings that just seem easily remedied by using two of them at once, so it just seems to be too logical to use Japanese styled blades in pairs. Plus, unlike a designated single handed sword, the grip length of a katana is conducive towards powerful cutting which is a nice bit of added versatility. As to why katana get such nice long grips while a lot of longswords have shorter 7-ish inch grips is beyond me. 2. A good ol' longsword I really like a good, fairly long (around 40 in. give or take a couple inches) solidly weighted longswords with longer handles. The longsword is just a beast of a weapon that seems to tackle whatever is in front of it with ease. I love wheel shaped and disc pommels since they're really easy to manipulate with the palm and orient the blade in different angles rather quickly. I've yet to formally study a specific school of longsword fencing (although I do like what I've seen demonstrated by folks on 'team Meyer', to phrase it colloquially), but I've found myself appreciating a single longsword over a single katana enormously. All the angles of attack and that superb sensation of using the pommel for fast re-orientation is just too much fun. Plus swinging around something like Hanwei's antiqued bastard sword is a great workout and feels all sorts of good. I used to enjoy using a single katana, but a good longsword seems like such a robust weapon that since getting the hang of it I haven't looked back. I guess my preferred set of equipment would be a pair of katana at the side and a longsword on the back, for fun and versatility. 3. A rapier and dagger I really have to tip my hat to the combination of rapier and dagger. I don't practice with this style too much, but when I do I feel almost like it's cheating. The rapier's reach is just insane and a well designed main gauche is sort of the Talhoffer buckler of daggers, so the two form this almost anti-climatic pair of lethal weaponry. I really love how the rapier has so much reach yet is so easy to keep on point/ on-line given the balance, although I do wish it had a bit more weight for the cut (although that would likely make it unmanageable with one hand). I don't really care for a rapier by itself since it seems to have some shortcomings with defense (poor leverage for parrying and blocking), but with a dagger (or maybe a cloak) it seems to be a recipe for success. Plus connecting a sudden thrust from an "unthreatening" posture is just too satisfying. I personally would pick effectiveness (suppose it would be open field duel) at 3, 2, 1, in that order, and would be most intrigued with rapier/main gauche vs. longsword matchup. I'd go single katana vs duel as I'm no good with single katana and would chop off me naughty bits by even attempting the impressive feat of swinging two katana.
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Post by Cosmoline on May 22, 2018 0:20:45 GMT
You should try langes messer via Lecküchner. The langes messer combines the best aspects of the one handed katana and adds a nagel and crossguard plus a short edge "hook." www.freelanceacademypress.com/ochsmesserdvd.aspxPersonally I love sword and buckler. Combining line with circle you can create all kinds of interesting attacks. You can also tie yourself in a knot. But that just adds to the excitement. Rapier and dagger will almost always win in a duel against anything but pole arms. Rapiers are basically estocs with a cheat code.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on May 22, 2018 0:29:47 GMT
I like spear a lot. Fun to spar with.
I also like large two-handed sword. This is difficult to safely spar with at full speed, unless using plenty of protection, since a realistically-weighted sparring simulator is heavy enough to do lots of damage.
But other weapons are fun, too. Haven't done any significant rapier. Longsword, katana, sabre, jian, bowie, twin swords (mostly based on Chinese twin dao), a little bit of halberd.
That's weapons. As for systems, I don't think I can be more specific than the rather generic "Chinese" for spear.
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Post by wlewisiii on May 22, 2018 0:50:26 GMT
1) Shorter one hand sword and buckler - pretty muc I.33 style
2) Saber - Mostly O'Rourke's 1873 manual with bits from the Art of Defense on Foot (4th edition, 1824)
3) I have a copy of Schmidt's Long Sword book but need to get a waster before I can really start to do it.
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Post by elbrittania39 on May 22, 2018 0:57:21 GMT
1) Saber, I prefer Polish, but I can appreciate Georgian as well. 2) Silvers Backsword. Didn't have much interest until I tried it on whim. I was pretty impressed. It's one of those weapons systems that starts making sense very quickly when you try it.
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Post by Jordan Williams on May 22, 2018 1:13:31 GMT
Sabre, namely the 1873 O'Rourke manual.
Rapier and dagger is fun but haven't done any in a month.
Honestly I dislike longsword. I feel it's very restricting.
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Post by leviathansteak on May 22, 2018 2:40:34 GMT
I primarily practice german longsword following ringeck and ms3227a, with a bit of joachim meyer thrown in.
My second favourite is probably sidesword with and without buckler in the bolognese tradition. I study dall'agocchie and the anonimo bolognese for this, although i have started throwing in a bit of meyer's rapier.
I also do a bit of leckuchners messer just for fun, merging it with a bit of meyers dussack
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Post by howler on May 22, 2018 7:04:47 GMT
You should try langes messer via Lecküchner. The langes messer combines the best aspects of the one handed katana and adds a nagel and crossguard plus a short edge "hook." www.freelanceacademypress.com/ochsmesserdvd.aspxPersonally I love sword and buckler. Combining line with circle you can create all kinds of interesting attacks. You can also tie yourself in a knot. But that just adds to the excitement. Rapier and dagger will almost always win in a duel against anything but pole arms. Rapiers are basically estocs with a cheat code. Did you say pole arms? Rapier and dagger vs. pole arm would be real cool.
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Post by howler on May 22, 2018 7:06:51 GMT
1) Saber, I prefer Polish, but I can appreciate Georgian as well. 2) Silvers Backsword. Didn't have much interest until I tried it on whim. I was pretty impressed. It's one of those weapons systems that starts making sense very quickly when you try it. Gotta get me a good backsword. Almost purchased but sent back the CS English backsword...long story.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on May 22, 2018 18:06:20 GMT
Recently I’ve been trying to learn my Agincourt w/buckler. The sword works great by itself using one or both hands, and I love two handed swords. The buckler seems to tame the cutting some. I can see where two people sparring would not pick this up, but when trying to cut targets I am making severe cuts but not halving them as I do with only the sword and the cut themselves feel weaker. I think the problem is that when only the sword and as the blade passes through the target the wrist has already started rolling to bring the sword back online using the inertia of the swing and not so when using a buckler. With the buckler I use less force in order to stop the sword without an over swing. Now that I think I know the problem it’s in front of the mirror with hopes. I have no problem with giving point. The rapier and dagger is a good combination. My concern here is the rapier’s stopping power. Never tried two katanas at once, but then that doesn’t interest me.
I have butterfly swords that I feel uncomfortable with so I leave them packed away in a trunk. I have no problem with the trainers but feel that it is too easy to clip my forearm with a live blade, so I leave those alone.
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Post by Cosmoline on May 22, 2018 18:13:59 GMT
Recently I’ve been trying to learn my Agincourt w/buckler. The sword works great by itself using one or both hands, and I love two handed swords. The buckler seems to tame the cutting some. I can see where two people sparring would not pick this up, but when trying to cut targets I am making severe cuts but not halving them as I do with only the sword and the cut themselves feel weaker. I think the problem is that when only the sword and as the blade passes through the target the wrist has already started rolling to bring the sword back online using the inertia of the swing and not so when using a buckler. With the buckler I use less force in order to stop the sword without an over swing. Now that I think I know the problem it’s in front of the mirror with hopes. I have no problem with giving point. This is an ongoing issue. When the buckler is introduced, it generally occupies the center space in all systems. In I.33 the cuts tend to be to the point of the buckler, but at that point the cut generally stops. So your right hand ends up next to your buckler hand, and then the cut can't easily proceed. With Bolognese the buckler can be pulled out of the way--its job done--and the cut sweeps through is with a normal side sword attack. This has led some to view I.33 as cut-then-thrust, so the point of the cut is not to hit the opponent but to claim the center a la a kind of buckler-ort which then allows a thrust or driving push-cut. I'm not sold on this though, esp. since so many of the obsessios work best when your body is under immediate threat. For example the obsessio to second works perfectly if my head is about to be hit, but doesn't work nearly as well when the opponent is just "cutting to center" in prelude to a thrust.
Having played around with the jugs this past year, I'm coming to the conclusion that half a head or even a quarter of head is perfectly acceptable. That is, if my cut is stopped half way by my own buckler hand, I've still killed the opponent with the added benefit of having the buckler front and center to deal with any death strokes. Given that buckler fighting was so often done out of armor and as a matter of personal defense, this makes some sense. The point was not necessarily to cleave through. A bad cut to the head or neck would allow for safe retreat. Of course we have no preface to I.33 so we don't really know the purpose for the instruction. If it was for a duel, you may have been required to kill the opponent to know God's truth. But it may have had no relationship with later fight books on judicial duels.
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Post by 28shadow on May 22, 2018 18:18:14 GMT
George Silver's ideas on swordplay are great, and in my opinion can be applied liberally to a great many arts.
Rapier and Dagger can classify as a "system" but their methods of use vary widely. Do I throw the dagger hand back on the lunge, stretch the off hand back but not throw it, do I even lunge at all, etc. are a variety of quirks that can make a unique system of thw style.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on May 22, 2018 19:01:29 GMT
This is an ongoing issue. When the buckler is introduced, it generally occupies the center space in all systems. In I.33 the cuts tend to be to the point of the buckler, but at that point the cut generally stops. So your right hand ends up next to your buckler hand, and then the cut can't easily proceed. With Bolognese the buckler can be pulled out of the way--its job done--and the cut sweeps through is with a normal side sword attack. This has led some to view I.33 as cut-then-thrust, so the point of the cut is not to hit the opponent but to claim the center a la a kind of buckler-ort which then allows a thrust or driving push-cut. I'm not sold on this though, esp. since so many of the obsessios work best when your body is under immediate threat. For example the obsessio to second works perfectly if my head is about to be hit, but doesn't work nearly as well when the opponent is just "cutting to center" in prelude to a thrust.
Having played around with the jugs this past year, I'm coming to the conclusion that half a head or even a quarter of head is perfectly acceptable. That is, if my cut is stopped half way by my own buckler hand, I've still killed the opponent with the added benefit of having the buckler front and center to deal with any death strokes. Given that buckler fighting was so often done out of armor and as a matter of personal defense, this makes some sense. The point was not necessarily to cleave through. A bad cut to the head or neck would allow for safe retreat. Of course we have no preface to I.33 so we don't really know the purpose for the instruction. If it was for a duel, you may have been required to kill the opponent to know God's truth. But it may have had no relationship with later fight books on judicial duels.
Thanks, I’ll work on the info you gave. I’ve already discovered much of what you have in the first paragraph, including cut then thrust seems to work well. Judging by the mess I make of the bottles an adversary will be pretty well messed up, incapacitated if you well, without amputations, which I couldn’t care less about. My goal would be to stop the threat. I’ll check out what you have in the second paragraph. It sounds good. And to some extent is what I am experiencing as mentioned in the above paragraph. Your confirmation to what I am beginning to decide is reassuring. Thanks. The mirror is helping and with what you have given my hopes have raisin. Another side to this is to go back to a shield. The commercial one that I have will probably stop anything short of a bullet but I find it slower and more cumbersome than I like, not to mention fatiguing. For a couple of years I’ve been considering making one more to my liking and had collected a few parts. This last week I became more serious and ordered a boss, more rivets, and some unrelated plate that I was curious about. Maybe in a couple of months... Thanks again, I value the post.
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Post by zabazagobo on May 22, 2018 20:52:56 GMT
I personally would pick effectiveness (suppose it would be open field duel) at 3, 2, 1, in that order, and would be most intrigued with rapier/main gauche vs. longsword matchup. I'd go single katana vs duel as I'm no good with single katana and would chop off me naughty bits by even attempting the impressive feat of swinging two katana. Hmm, I agree with ranking by effectiveness, but not sure I'd put rapier first. It definitely has reach and impressive lunges, but it kind of lacks stopping power and I don't think it'd be that difficult to bind and gain control of it using a sword with more heft. I could see anything from a longsword to a claymore to katana having certain advantages over the rapier in this regard. But rapier "sniping" (for lack of a more technical term) is just such good fun that it's hard to call a rapier anything but effective, until it gets batted around or overwhelmed by a more robust sword that is.
The longsword vs. rapier & main gauche is a fun prospect. I've yet to ever spar in such a fashion (hope to sometime soon), but it would be a really interesting idea. I would guess the longsword could bat away and gain control of the rapier fairly easily, only to then have to contend with the main gauche; it'd be interesting to see if a main gauche holds up as such a great defensive weapon against heavier opposition. I'm sure it would do fine, but then the rapier wouldn't be of much use at a closer range, so it'd be interesting to see how the rapier user would respond to the longsword when in close quarters. Really fun scenario, too bad we can't test it out.
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Post by zabazagobo on May 22, 2018 21:03:16 GMT
Recently I’ve been trying to learn my Agincourt w/buckler. The sword works great by itself using one or both hands, and I love two handed swords. The buckler seems to tame the cutting some. I can see where two people sparring would not pick this up, but when trying to cut targets I am making severe cuts but not halving them as I do with only the sword and the cut themselves feel weaker. I think the problem is that when only the sword and as the blade passes through the target the wrist has already started rolling to bring the sword back online using the inertia of the swing and not so when using a buckler. With the buckler I use less force in order to stop the sword without an over swing. Now that I think I know the problem it’s in front of the mirror with hopes. I have no problem with giving point. The rapier and dagger is a good combination. My concern here is the rapier’s stopping power. Never tried two katanas at once, but then that doesn’t interest me. I have butterfly swords that I feel uncomfortable with so I leave them packed away in a trunk. I have no problem with the trainers but feel that it is too easy to clip my forearm with a live blade, so I leave those alone. Glad to hear you're enjoying your Agincourt so much, looked like a nice sword when you reviewed it. I've been meaning to try out sword and buckler sometime, but waiting on finding the right buckler or preferably shield (I'd appreciate any recommendations). I've often wondered about the advantages of using the buckler rather than another blade in your off-hand, I've always enjoyed having another edged weapon for more offensive options but there's something to be said for a good shield. How do you like using a buckler in comparison to something like a dagger or shortsword? I'd be a little worried about feeling too much shock from not being able to bind or parry the way you would with a blade, but maybe that's a misguided thought of mine.
Two katanas are fun, you might enjoy two sabers or cutlasses (somewhat similar, maybe even more agile thanks to the mass distribution). I just really like having the symmetry for more versatility, it helps plug up the weakness of the flank.
I'd be nervous about butterfly swords for the same reasons, shorter blades like that just seem like they would enjoy swinging back and hitting me instead. Also agree about the rapier, it's not the most forceful of weapons so depending on context it might be at a (arguably severe) disadvantage.
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Post by zabazagobo on May 22, 2018 21:15:20 GMT
Cosmoline thanks for the recommendation, I've been meaning to learn more about messers for a while so this is a much appreciated suggestion (now, if you know of any good messers for sale that'd also be appreciated).
Jordan Williams interesting how you mention the longsword feeling restrictive...is that from using two hands on the grip and related posture dynamics?
Also a lot of love for sabres. For the sabre enthusiasts, is it ever part of the practice to utilize a second weapon (anything from a dagger to another sabre)? Also, what do you enjoy about the dynamics of the saber?
Timo Nieminen Which kinds of two-handed swords? I've been thinking about trying out a proper two handed sword (thinking about Hanwei's Scottish claymore as a good starter, other suggestions are welcome) so I'd like to hear more about what you like about larger swords. I've been watching a fair amount of montante drills in my free time lately and they just look so smooth in motion.
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Post by 28shadow on May 22, 2018 21:25:19 GMT
zabazagobo to chime in on what Jordan was saying, I find longswords with grips that exceed 8" restricting, and since the modern HEMA scene loves their super long handles many longswords these days have long grips. My preference for longsword (or any two handed sword) grip is between 6 and 8", depending on the blade style.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on May 22, 2018 21:39:43 GMT
Timo Nieminen Which kinds of two-handed swords? I've been thinking about trying out a proper two handed sword (thinking about Hanwei's Scottish claymore as a good starter, other suggestions are welcome) so I'd like to hear more about what you like about larger swords. I've been watching a fair amount of montante drills in my free time lately and they just look so smooth in motion. Big two-handers are kinesthetically beautiful (as a user, and as you note, as a spectator). Tactics are important, too - you don't have the speed and reach of a spear, so you need to think a little more. Heavy enough so you can't just wave it around with your arms - you have to move with your weapon. It's a dance partner. Mostly I've worked with big two-handers, 5 1/2' to 6'. Used to fight with one in the SCA, but switched to spear. SCA rules don't favour big two-handers - against a shield, they're nice foot-removers, but knees and below are off-target in SCA. A 6' staff works as a trainer, e.g., for light sparring, but is light enough so that you don't need proper body mechanics to move it - discipline is needed to move realistically. The Hanwei Lowlander is a nice cheap sharp. For a proper big two-hander, that's the best budget option - the Hanwei Claymore is a petite two-hander, barely bigger than a longsword. Also a lot of love for sabres. For the sabre enthusiasts, is it ever part of the practice to utilize a second weapon (anything from a dagger to another sabre)? Also, what do you enjoy about the dynamics of the saber? Indian sabre often uses an offhand weapon (or buckler, or shield). Offhand weapon might be a knife or katar, or something like a saintie (parrying stick with spearhead) or madu shield. The most common offhand weapon to accompany a 19th century European sabre is a revolver.
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Post by wlewisiii on May 22, 2018 22:17:24 GMT
Also a lot of love for sabres. For the sabre enthusiasts, is it ever part of the practice to utilize a second weapon (anything from a dagger to another sabre)? Also, what do you enjoy about the dynamics of the saber?
I've begun using a buckler occasionally with saber. It makes an interesting combination because it changes the dynamic of the guards and leads, to me & so far at least, to using more point than before. As for why saber, I like the looks, it's the only sword with a real history of use in America & the O'Rourke manual of 1873 is excellent for a raw beginner since it was designed to teach new recruits.
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