Zen_Hydra
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Born with a heart full of neutrality
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Post by Zen_Hydra on May 23, 2018 11:03:57 GMT
I've toyed around with a pairing of rapier and sabre and side sword and sabre. The rapier/side sword being dominant and working like a boxer's jab and straight right to set up the decisive strike from the sabre. With a deep enough curve and the correct technique the sabre can cut effectively at knife range, and thus protect one from an opponent closing inside the rapier's/side sword's optimal range.
I am also looking forward to playing around with a Niten Ichi ryu like pairing of an Albion Principe and Sovereign. I don't expect it to be too effective, but it should look at least look cool.
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Post by Cosmoline on May 23, 2018 17:36:17 GMT
I finally did it. Practicing 1st Ward with sword/butler and clipped my elbow. I’ll wear my light gambeson from now on like that little voice in the back of my mind had told me to do several times. First blood with that sword and it’s mine. RATS!! I heard a noise and looked down and it's Odie, my dog, cleaning the floor for me. Guess he doesn't like looking at my blood either. Were you using a sharp!? Prima is a tricky ward. The traditional approach that was used with the first interpretations a few years back was to tuck the sword into your armpit, shove the buckler out and then move the sword out. That way when the sword swings your elbow is straight.
The one we've been using focuses on "sub brachia" in the sense that the sword is *below* the arm on the horizontal 2D plane. Not inside the armpit. The sword is rotated free, and the elbow is tucked back. Both sword and buckler move out together. Demonstrated here:
The big advantage of this method is it allows immediate sword engagement and overbinding from prima, without having to move the buckler out first. Basically it saves a beat and can trap unwary opponents. Both approaches have textual support. Personally if you're new to S&B I'd stick with the traditional one as it does at least resolve the elbow issue. If you're wanting to really use Prima in a fight, go with our method. Frankly we're about the only folks who are using it anyway. A lot of folks seem to be moving away from ward-based fighting anyway, though according to the text that's not ultimately possible ;-)
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on May 23, 2018 23:40:10 GMT
Were you using a sharp!? Prima is a tricky ward. The traditional approach that was used with the first interpretations a few years back was to tuck the sword into your armpit, shove the buckler out and then move the sword out. That way when the sword swings your elbow is straight.
The one we've been using focuses on "sub brachia" in the sense that the sword is *below* the arm on the horizontal 2D plane. Not inside the armpit. The sword is rotated free, and the elbow is tucked back. Both sword and buckler move out together. Demonstrated here:
The big advantage of this method is it allows immediate sword engagement and overbinding from prima, without having to move the buckler out first. Basically it saves a beat and can trap unwary opponents. Both approaches have textual support. Personally if you're new to S&B I'd stick with the traditional one as it does at least resolve the elbow issue. If you're wanting to really use Prima in a fight, go with our method. Frankly we're about the only folks who are using it anyway. A lot of folks seem to be moving away from ward-based fighting anyway, though according to the text that's not ultimately possible ;-)
I’ve been reviewing the incident and I believe the two errors on my part were probably not keeping the elbow tucked in and for sure not stepping out sufficiently with the left foot. I’ve gone through the event many times and I think this is what happened. I was in the rear garden going through the drill when I caught a reflection of myself in a window. That is almost as good as a mirror for picking up mistakes. I turned to face the window which was not at a great distance and I got a glimpse of the clothes line at the last moment. Not wanting to cut the line I held back, hardly advancing my left foot, not rotating my left shoulder forward and pushing the buckler out, but more or less stood facing the window. What can I say? Being the good swordsman I am I didn’t cut the line. Haha. I’ve been holding the grip inclined upwards. I’ll try horizontal as I believe possibly the blade will reach the target faster, not travelling in such an arch. Don’t feel up to it at the moment and the daily rains have set in. The elbow is healing nicely. It’s not easy to see due to the location so I use a mirror. I made an improvised bandage out of masking tape a paper towel and used antiseptic not wanting a tropical infection. Removed the bandage this morning which was a bloody mess. And the wound appears to be a scratch now, although sore. Kind of reminded me of a victim I treated once who had received a stab wound to the heart. There wasn’t much external bleeding and I’d say at the most 1” in length, located at any other part of the body I wouldn’t have given it much of a thought. I watched the doc for a moment after we got him to the ER and was amazed to see him stick his finger in and feel around. Damn just checked the mirror to ensure no infection, the first time since this morning. I cannot find the laceration; it’s going to heal nicely. There is a contusion, some red marks, and tender, no more.
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Post by Cosmoline on May 24, 2018 0:18:55 GMT
Blood for the blood god! Glad to hear it's healing. I'm sworn to secrecy on details, but let's just say you aren't the first person to get that exact same injury doing S&B ;-)
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on May 24, 2018 1:50:20 GMT
Blood for the blood god! Glad to hear it's healing. I'm sworn to secrecy on details, but let's just say you aren't the first person to get that exact same injury doing S&B ;-) Not that I’m an uncaring person but it’s nice to know that I have company in this matter, makes me feel better.
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Post by zabazagobo on May 24, 2018 17:28:02 GMT
Timo Nieminen Which kinds of two-handed swords? I've been thinking about trying out a proper two handed sword (thinking about Hanwei's Scottish claymore as a good starter, other suggestions are welcome) so I'd like to hear more about what you like about larger swords. I've been watching a fair amount of montante drills in my free time lately and they just look so smooth in motion. Big two-handers are kinesthetically beautiful (as a user, and as you note, as a spectator). Tactics are important, too - you don't have the speed and reach of a spear, so you need to think a little more. Heavy enough so you can't just wave it around with your arms - you have to move with your weapon. It's a dance partner. Mostly I've worked with big two-handers, 5 1/2' to 6'. Used to fight with one in the SCA, but switched to spear. SCA rules don't favour big two-handers - against a shield, they're nice foot-removers, but knees and below are off-target in SCA. A 6' staff works as a trainer, e.g., for light sparring, but is light enough so that you don't need proper body mechanics to move it - discipline is needed to move realistically. The Hanwei Lowlander is a nice cheap sharp. For a proper big two-hander, that's the best budget option - the Hanwei Claymore is a petite two-hander, barely bigger than a longsword. Also a lot of love for sabres. For the sabre enthusiasts, is it ever part of the practice to utilize a second weapon (anything from a dagger to another sabre)? Also, what do you enjoy about the dynamics of the saber? Indian sabre often uses an offhand weapon (or buckler, or shield). Offhand weapon might be a knife or katar, or something like a saintie (parrying stick with spearhead) or madu shield. The most common offhand weapon to accompany a 19th century European sabre is a revolver. Interesting to hear how feet or lower legs aren't considered acceptable targets in that competition. Maybe it comes from an ethics principle where if the blow doesn't kill it's of a lesser quality? Then again, if hits to the arm are considered valid then that theory's out. Interesting/odd to say the least, since it's not exactly easy to continue on fighting if a leg is injured or severed. How sport fencing is so particular on acceptable hits has always kind of irked me. The scoring rules in kendo are another example, they're fine for a game/sport, but are kind of disappointing for swordsmanship. It's a shame that events like the Traditional Chinese Sword League Scott Rodell proctored didn't become more widespread, that was really cool.
On the one hand something like the lowlander is pretty cool, on the other hand, the thing is just a bit big. I don't mind the blade length so much, but 7 lbs and a 18 in handle just seems like a bit much. A lot of the time I prefer to grip the pommel to facilitate quick rotation, so I wonder how successfully that can play out when the handle with a grip of that length. What's your experience been like with this? Do you ever make use of the pommel or do you just focus on rotating the grip?
A revolver and a saber sounds like a fun combination, something right out of the history books. Of course, a revolver and a bowie would be a perfect pair as well. I'll have to look into Indian sabre more, curious to learn more about how the shield plays into the style.
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Post by Cosmoline on May 24, 2018 17:35:05 GMT
Rodell is still working on it! He's got groups around the world now My wife is looking to set one up locally. But the Tai Chi establishment is a substantial industry and has been less than welcoming towards his ideas. Instructors who have been trained for generations now to do things the wrong way aren't very amenable to change. Instead, the approach should be through a fresh Chinese swordsmanship training program. And don't even mention the "TC" word because the rep has become so horrible in martial arts circles. If enough people get into it there could be a competition circuit.
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Post by zabazagobo on May 24, 2018 17:38:00 GMT
Jordan Williams interesting how you mention the longsword feeling restrictive...is that from using two hands on the grip and related posture dynamics?
Also a lot of love for sabres. For the sabre enthusiasts, is it ever part of the practice to utilize a second weapon (anything from a dagger to another sabre)? Also, what do you enjoy about the dynamics of the saber?
Both, with a one handed sword I can use a free hand for anything. Grappling, off hand weapon, grabbing your opponent's arm or wrist mid swing (I've done this and had this happen to me) all without losing any balance or anything like that with a one handed sword. I enjoy the fact that most sabres can cut as well as thrust, and are a dedicated one handed sword, have excellent (in Europe at least) hand protection and don't require an off hand weapon or item to contend with most other weapon styles. I know that there are manuals in existence that see the usage of a dagger or buckler with sabre, sabre and dagger is actually a fairly hard thing to combat against. I tried sabre and buckler and found it quite a good combo as well. I don't know the names of the manuals but the other fellow who does sabre in my club has studied from or at least read from them. Sounds like a lot of the reasons you like sabre is similar to why I like katana, aside from the dedicated single handed part. I like having the extra grip length for using two hands if desired as an option, which is something absent with dedicated single handed swords that throws me off. That being said, I'll have to look more into sabres sometime soon, it sounds like they might be the right sort of single-handed sword for me. I mean, if it's curved and flows can't be bad right?
The nearly two foot dagger makes the sabre and dagger combination really intriguing. Fairly evocative of the katana + wakizashi combination. The thought of using a long bowie (something like Windlass' D-Guard bowie) alongside a sabre is a really fun idea.
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Post by zabazagobo on May 24, 2018 17:49:48 GMT
Rodell is still working on it! He's got groups around the world now My wife is looking to set one up locally. But the Tai Chi establishment is a substantial industry and has been less than welcoming towards his ideas. Instructors who have been trained for generations now to do things the wrong way aren't very amenable to change. Instead, the approach should be through a fresh Chinese swordsmanship training program. And don't even mention the "TC" word because the rep has become so horrible in martial arts circles. This is really great news, I haven't heard much about this in awhile. Agree that it would be better creating a Chinese Swordsmanship School and eschew the Tai Chi establishment and dogma. Not saying there's anything wrong with Tai Chi, but it'd be nice to see proper technical Chinese swordsmanship taught rather than the more meditative and abstract form. Not that I don't mind the meditative and abstract (yesterday I spent two hours meditating over something like four bowls of matcha), but there's a lot to Chinese swordplay that deserves more attention. It's kind of the same hangup I have with modern JSA, either it gets too reflective and meditative or it's too focused on the sport of Kendo.
Would you be willing to share more details about what Rodell's been up to? Also cool to hear that your wife is trying to set up a branch, where is this located at?
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Post by zabazagobo on May 24, 2018 17:59:08 GMT
I've toyed around with a pairing of rapier and sabre and side sword and sabre. The rapier/side sword being dominant and working like a boxer's jab and straight right to set up the decisive strike from the sabre. With a deep enough curve and the correct technique the sabre can cut effectively at knife range, and thus protect one from an opponent closing inside the rapier's/side sword's optimal range. I am also looking forward to playing around with a Niten Ichi ryu like pairing of an Albion Principe and Sovereign. I don't expect it to be too effective, but it should look at least look cool. That's a fun idea, thrusting oriented weapon paired with cutting oriented weapon. I could see that working pretty well, since the sabre would be agile enough to respond to the opponent and forcefully enough to bind momentarily for the rapier to thrust. Yet another nod for sabre styles on this thread, it seems I really am missing out by not playing around with one. The combination of rapier and sabre might also alleviate some of the difficulties the combination of rapier and dagger would face going up against the longsword given the sabre's superior range, cutting dynamics and more. Really fun idea.
The principe and sovereign combination sounds like good fun. An XVIIIc backed up by a shorter XIV seems like a great combo (makes me wonder how well a XV or XVII would pair with a XIV), although I'd be a little nervous having four edges to keep track of. Would look extremely cool though.
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Post by zabazagobo on May 24, 2018 18:15:23 GMT
Hmm, I agree with ranking by effectiveness, but not sure I'd put rapier first. It definitely has reach and impressive lunges, but it kind of lacks stopping power and I don't think it'd be that difficult to bind and gain control of it using a sword with more heft. I could see anything from a longsword to a claymore to katana having certain advantages over the rapier in this regard. But rapier "sniping" (for lack of a more technical term) is just such good fun that it's hard to call a rapier anything but effective, until it gets batted around or overwhelmed by a more robust sword that is.
The longsword vs. rapier & main gauche is a fun prospect. I've yet to ever spar in such a fashion (hope to sometime soon), but it would be a really interesting idea. I would guess the longsword could bat away and gain control of the rapier fairly easily, only to then have to contend with the main gauche; it'd be interesting to see if a main gauche holds up as such a great defensive weapon against heavier opposition. I'm sure it would do fine, but then the rapier wouldn't be of much use at a closer range, so it'd be interesting to see how the rapier user would respond to the longsword when in close quarters. Really fun scenario, too bad we can't test it out. I have heard (and understand) that same critique/concern (stopping power) from others, but think a "run through" (vs. minor poke) would be a devastating game ender. I'm mainly thinking large heavy rapiers (3lbs.) in my thought experiment (so some binding power and not so easy to knock around), and know that these things existed at the time of all the other weapon types in some form (longsword, polearm, side sword, etc...), though some were phasing out, at least I heard that from Scholagladiatoria on YouTube. You would want to use the longer heavier main gauche to at least minimize your valid statement of dealing with heavier opposition. Of course this is all thinking duel (and you would have to think to the death or major incapacitation), so when you get into military and particularly melee, your concerns on rapier take off, as the duel was the rapiers specialty, so it (in my opinion) takes a major hit on general usage, and against multiple opponents. This is a great topic and fun to contemplate the matchups...if only in our minds, as a large rapier/dagger vs. katana duel to incapacitation (for instance) has probably never been done, or at least recorded. I have heavy rapier, main gauche, infantry and cav. saber, longsword, arming sword, spear, short spear, halberd, billhook, katana, ko-katana, large messer, so I like them all and they have their niche. Still, gotta get me a backsword. Oh, I forgot about shield...disregard everything I just said. Yeah, if the main gauche is of the Windlass Musketeer variety, it'd probably have decent luck with defense, the only problem being that the rapier would be almost useless if the longsword or katana user got within range and the dagger/gauche would probably have limited offensive utility. When a second heftier weapon is thrown in the mix (say, a second katana or a sabre, since sabres are getting a lot of love on this thread) the parrying dagger might just be overwhelmed since the rapier can't function well at close range. So even in a duel, I don't think the rapier and main gauche necessarily has an advantage, aside from reach. This reach is something a single katana or sabre would have a very difficult time with, but when there's two blades against the rapier, the reach advantage becomes more of a question. Sadly there's no easy answer since there was never a Musketeer vs. Samurai war (which might be a funny concept for a cheesy movie).
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Post by Cosmoline on May 24, 2018 20:21:04 GMT
Would you be willing to share more details about what Rodell's been up to? Also cool to hear that your wife is trying to set up a branch, where is this located at?
We're in Alaska, and laoshi comes up to the Fairbanks studio twice a year. He's still got his sword store and the Great River Taoist Center. Most of his exposure of late seems to be in HEMA circles. Frankly what passes for tai chi in the modern US and even mainland China is only remotely connected to the original martial art. Which is why MMA fighters can just knock the masters around. It's interesting to me that the closer the art comes to martial correctness, the more it looks like other martial arts. Punches, kicks, grapples, throws, etc. Likewise the sword work starts to look more like fighting and less like a dance.
There are a few dozen groups around the world doing his style of work now, and hopefully these will seed more in the future.
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Post by howler on May 24, 2018 20:21:13 GMT
I have heard (and understand) that same critique/concern (stopping power) from others, but think a "run through" (vs. minor poke) would be a devastating game ender. I'm mainly thinking large heavy rapiers (3lbs.) in my thought experiment (so some binding power and not so easy to knock around), and know that these things existed at the time of all the other weapon types in some form (longsword, polearm, side sword, etc...), though some were phasing out, at least I heard that from Scholagladiatoria on YouTube. You would want to use the longer heavier main gauche to at least minimize your valid statement of dealing with heavier opposition. Of course this is all thinking duel (and you would have to think to the death or major incapacitation), so when you get into military and particularly melee, your concerns on rapier take off, as the duel was the rapiers specialty, so it (in my opinion) takes a major hit on general usage, and against multiple opponents. This is a great topic and fun to contemplate the matchups...if only in our minds, as a large rapier/dagger vs. katana duel to incapacitation (for instance) has probably never been done, or at least recorded. I have heavy rapier, main gauche, infantry and cav. saber, longsword, arming sword, spear, short spear, halberd, billhook, katana, ko-katana, large messer, so I like them all and they have their niche. Still, gotta get me a backsword. Oh, I forgot about shield...disregard everything I just said. Yeah, if the main gauche is of the Windlass Musketeer variety, it'd probably have decent luck with defense, the only problem being that the rapier would be almost useless if the longsword or katana user got within range and the dagger/gauche would probably have limited offensive utility. When a second heftier weapon is thrown in the mix (say, a second katana or a sabre, since sabres are getting a lot of love on this thread) the parrying dagger might just be overwhelmed since the rapier can't function well at close range. So even in a duel, I don't think the rapier and main gauche necessarily has an advantage, aside from reach. This reach is something a single katana or sabre would have a very difficult time with, but when there's two blades against the rapier, the reach advantage becomes more of a question. Sadly there's no easy answer since there was never a Musketeer vs. Samurai war (which might be a funny concept for a cheesy movie).
Footwork (and a lot of space) would be extremely important for rapier to keep those blades out of range, no doubt. I believe it is the super close range aspect that makes the main gauche so deadly, with it's 12"-17" blade and good hand protection, as you can really poke, poke, poke...so that's it's offense. Sabre, katana would kill dagger from mid range and particularly if separated from the rapier, though some main gauche can be real beefy, like CS MAA Crab Claw Dagger. Duel wielding saber is even more intriguing than katana, as they are dedicated one hand weapons with better hand protection. If your super competent at duel wielding, this would be the question, as the potential negatives have been discussed, which could be why it isn't a more popular system. I would have to imagine that if you practiced, practiced, practiced, and came at someone swinging two full size blades, that person would go to the bathroom in their pants. I know I would.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on May 24, 2018 21:42:32 GMT
Used to fight with one in the SCA, but switched to spear. SCA rules don't favour big two-handers - against a shield, they're nice foot-removers, but knees and below are off-target in SCA. Interesting to hear how feet or lower legs aren't considered acceptable targets in that competition. Maybe it comes from an ethics principle where if the blow doesn't kill it's of a lesser quality? Then again, if hits to the arm are considered valid then that theory's out. Interesting/odd to say the least, since it's not exactly easy to continue on fighting if a leg is injured or severed. It's partly a safety rule (hands/wrists are off-target for safety), but mostly it's because of they way the SCA deals with leg hits: a leg hit stops the use of that leg, rather than winning the bout. Usually, when hit in the leg, the fighter will continue on his/her knees, and this makes it very easy to hit a still-standing opponent in the lower leg. Knee and lower being off-target is mostly to reduce such double-legging. On the one hand something like the lowlander is pretty cool, on the other hand, the thing is just a bit big. I don't mind the blade length so much, but 7 lbs and a 18 in handle just seems like a bit much. A lot of the time I prefer to grip the pommel to facilitate quick rotation, so I wonder how successfully that can play out when the handle with a grip of that length. What's your experience been like with this? Do you ever make use of the pommel or do you just focus on rotating the grip? I find that the size and weight of such swords (even ones significantly shorter and lighter than the Lowlander) puts the kind of rather flicky and snappy rotations I use pommels as levers for out of contention. Absent such flicky/snappy things, the only advantages grabbing the pommel gives are more leverage due to longer distance between the hands (not needed here, since the grip is so long) and for pushing thrusts in with the back hand (which I don't recall doing with a big two-hander in sparring - typically one already has a reach advantage, and it isn't necessary to do such things to outreach an opponent with a thrust).
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Post by zabazagobo on May 27, 2018 5:01:06 GMT
Would you be willing to share more details about what Rodell's been up to? Also cool to hear that your wife is trying to set up a branch, where is this located at?
We're in Alaska, and laoshi comes up to the Fairbanks studio twice a year. He's still got his sword store and the Great River Taoist Center. Most of his exposure of late seems to be in HEMA circles. Frankly what passes for tai chi in the modern US and even mainland China is only remotely connected to the original martial art. Which is why MMA fighters can just knock the masters around. It's interesting to me that the closer the art comes to martial correctness, the more it looks like other martial arts. Punches, kicks, grapples, throws, etc. Likewise the sword work starts to look more like fighting and less like a dance.
There are a few dozen groups around the world doing his style of work now, and hopefully these will seed more in the future.
This is all really good news to hear. I think Rodell would fit in great in the HEMA community (maybe he could spearhead a "HAMA" branch).
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Post by zabazagobo on May 27, 2018 5:08:56 GMT
Interesting to hear how feet or lower legs aren't considered acceptable targets in that competition. Maybe it comes from an ethics principle where if the blow doesn't kill it's of a lesser quality? Then again, if hits to the arm are considered valid then that theory's out. Interesting/odd to say the least, since it's not exactly easy to continue on fighting if a leg is injured or severed. It's partly a safety rule (hands/wrists are off-target for safety), but mostly it's because of they way the SCA deals with leg hits: a leg hit stops the use of that leg, rather than winning the bout. Usually, when hit in the leg, the fighter will continue on his/her knees, and this makes it very easy to hit a still-standing opponent in the lower leg. Knee and lower being off-target is mostly to reduce such double-legging. On the one hand something like the lowlander is pretty cool, on the other hand, the thing is just a bit big. I don't mind the blade length so much, but 7 lbs and a 18 in handle just seems like a bit much. A lot of the time I prefer to grip the pommel to facilitate quick rotation, so I wonder how successfully that can play out when the handle with a grip of that length. What's your experience been like with this? Do you ever make use of the pommel or do you just focus on rotating the grip? I find that the size and weight of such swords (even ones significantly shorter and lighter than the Lowlander) puts the kind of rather flicky and snappy rotations I use pommels as levers for out of contention. Absent such flicky/snappy things, the only advantages grabbing the pommel gives are more leverage due to longer distance between the hands (not needed here, since the grip is so long) and for pushing thrusts in with the back hand (which I don't recall doing with a big two-hander in sparring - typically one already has a reach advantage, and it isn't necessary to do such things to outreach an opponent with a thrust). Hm, the "continue on his/her knees" comment reminded me of the friendly black knight in Monty Python...nice of SCA to consider him.
Interesting anecdotes on the handling dynamics. It definitely seems that you wouldn't be using something like a montante in a similar fashion to a longsword, so the quick rotations using the pommel wouldn't necessarily fit the overall style the best. The comments on length and leverage also make good sense, it's almost kind of a 'sword-spear' at this point, so focusing on the end cap wouldn't be the most useful use of a hand. Really a different style of swordplay than what I'm used to, definitely need to check it out sometime.
Since you're also pretty fond of spears, how do you like large swords compared to the spear? How would you say they perform against each other?
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Post by zabazagobo on May 27, 2018 5:17:51 GMT
Footwork (and a lot of space) would be extremely important for rapier to keep those blades out of range, no doubt. I believe it is the super close range aspect that makes the main gauche so deadly, with it's 12"-17" blade and good hand protection, as you can really poke, poke, poke...so that's it's offense. Sabre, katana would kill dagger from mid range and particularly if separated from the rapier, though some main gauche can be real beefy, like CS MAA Crab Claw Dagger. Duel wielding saber is even more intriguing than katana, as they are dedicated one hand weapons with better hand protection. If your super competent at duel wielding, this would be the question, as the potential negatives have been discussed, which could be why it isn't a more popular system. I would have to imagine that if you practiced, practiced, practiced, and came at someone swinging two full size blades, that person would go to the bathroom in their pants. I know I would. Right? The dual-wielding scenario zenhydra mentioned with oakeshott type xiv and xviiic would be a bit much on any swordsman's ability to maintain calm. I really think the dual sabres might just be a really, really superb option since they are geared to be one handed to begin with. Great, now I can add a pair of sabres along with a zweihander/montante, a type xv longsword, a Date Masamune katana from Hanwei, a spear, solid hardwood tonfa and (someday) that dang Irish Ring Pommel sword from VA. It's a good thing my other hobbies are inexpensive pursuits.
I know it's not sword related, but man does Torii USA make beautiful tonfa:
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Post by Timo Nieminen on May 27, 2018 7:47:09 GMT
Since you're also pretty fond of spears, how do you like large swords compared to the spear? How would you say they perform against each other? Both fun. Large sword is more complex in action, more dependent on wise tactics and good biomechanics. Spear is more forgiving of mistakes (against a single typical opponent with a short weapon) since you are typically further away and have a larger margin of error for staying out of reach, and a faster weapon. Against each other, spear is superior. But a lot of large swords have effective anti-spear features, such as very long crosses and things like curled up ends on the cross and Parierhaken which can make it hard to do the usual quick disengages with which one beats a swordsman with a normal sword. So some care is required - you have less margin than against an opponent with, e.g., a longsword. Against multiple opponents, perhaps spear is better offensively against 2-3 opponents. Large sword might be better if you aren't free to move around (e.g., you have to protect somebody/something). Spear is more dependent on mobility, and if needing to stay near something takes that mobility away, large sword becomes relatively better. Against 4+ opponents, large sword might be better, but 4+ opponents is pretty bad news either way.
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Post by howler on May 27, 2018 9:56:10 GMT
Footwork (and a lot of space) would be extremely important for rapier to keep those blades out of range, no doubt. I believe it is the super close range aspect that makes the main gauche so deadly, with it's 12"-17" blade and good hand protection, as you can really poke, poke, poke...so that's it's offense. Sabre, katana would kill dagger from mid range and particularly if separated from the rapier, though some main gauche can be real beefy, like CS MAA Crab Claw Dagger. Duel wielding saber is even more intriguing than katana, as they are dedicated one hand weapons with better hand protection. If your super competent at duel wielding, this would be the question, as the potential negatives have been discussed, which could be why it isn't a more popular system. I would have to imagine that if you practiced, practiced, practiced, and came at someone swinging two full size blades, that person would go to the bathroom in their pants. I know I would. Right? The dual-wielding scenario zenhydra mentioned with oakeshott type xiv and xviiic would be a bit much on any swordsman's ability to maintain calm. I really think the dual sabres might just be a really, really superb option since they are geared to be one handed to begin with. Great, now I can add a pair of sabres along with a zweihander/montante, a type xv longsword, a Date Masamune katana from Hanwei, a spear, solid hardwood tonfa and (someday) that dang Irish Ring Pommel sword from VA. It's a good thing my other hobbies are inexpensive pursuits.
I know it's not sword related, but man does Torii USA make beautiful tonfa: If I'm even considering duel wield, it will be smaller. The longer and heavier it gets, the more I want it single edged, as I could see myself getting a real nasty cut.
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Post by zabazagobo on May 28, 2018 0:52:59 GMT
Since you're also pretty fond of spears, how do you like large swords compared to the spear? How would you say they perform against each other? Both fun. Large sword is more complex in action, more dependent on wise tactics and good biomechanics. Spear is more forgiving of mistakes (against a single typical opponent with a short weapon) since you are typically further away and have a larger margin of error for staying out of reach, and a faster weapon. Against each other, spear is superior. But a lot of large swords have effective anti-spear features, such as very long crosses and things like curled up ends on the cross and Parierhaken which can make it hard to do the usual quick disengages with which one beats a swordsman with a normal sword. So some care is required - you have less margin than against an opponent with, e.g., a longsword. Against multiple opponents, perhaps spear is better offensively against 2-3 opponents. Large sword might be better if you aren't free to move around (e.g., you have to protect somebody/something). Spear is more dependent on mobility, and if needing to stay near something takes that mobility away, large sword becomes relatively better. Against 4+ opponents, large sword might be better, but 4+ opponents is pretty bad news either way. Thanks for sharing your impressions. Seems like a large sword would be an excellent 'crowd control' weapon in situations involving multiple opponents in 'medium' quarters (not too close, not too far out, sort of the Goldilocks of spacing). Several of the videos I've stumbled on for montante swordplay focus on forms based around concepts like "guarding a lady", so this seems to be a good indicator of the style's strengths.
Your points on spear make me curious how a glaive/naginata would compare. Seems almost like it would be a healthy middleground between the slicing and reach advantages of either weapon. Although the more intricate (and fun) flourishes of a large sword probably wouldn't be very common.
Which types of spear do you prefer? To frame in Greco-Roman typology, spears of hasta, pilum or sarissa length?
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