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Post by Richard Arias on Sept 11, 2017 2:27:48 GMT
Thanks for this Richard. One limiting factor I have is ammo - I have no idea what the reputation of Armscor ammunition is, but I've read from some that it's a little cheap. It is, however, then only ammo affordable in great quantities here. A box of 50 Federal Hydrashok is around $60 and that's pretty bad. Although I suppose I could practice with Armscor first then just carry the Federal. Also, 38 Super is just as expensive as 45 ACP so it can still work. But I'll go try out 9mm as you said. Only ever shot 45 and I might like 9 better. I was always neutral about 9mm. But here in AZ I can carry a 17 round mag for slightly more weight than 8 rounds of 45acp. The thing is you watch stress set in and accuracy drop when you set people on a tactical range. I took an experienced shooter to a new range he had never been to and watched his accuracy fall when you took away all his high priced guns and equipment ( red dots ex). I have nothing against target shooting. You can learn some basics plinking at the range. But I prefer to tech old school basic defensive shooting because it is quick and instinctive. And in doing a run and gun with a 1911 you have a big heavy gun that you will spend more time in concealment reloading if your prone to panic fire which all but hardened veteran usually are. People hate glocks and non external safety guns usually because they grew up with a 1911 or they were influenced by the crowd. If your trigger discipline is good then you should not need an external safety. A lot of people "hear about" guns without safeties getting people hurt... But I have seen just as many 1911 junkies forget to drop the safety and pull the trigger in a hurry for nothing to happen... Which in a gun fight a stationary target not behind cover or concealment is likely to be a dead target soon. So do your own research and find what you feel because its your choice and your life. But consider reality not "the word around the range" or "this article says". Because your carry and home defense will be specific to you based on your geography, skills and preferences. I will say from a personal bias to pick up a good tactical folder or small fixed blade knife to carry with you at all times. And being where you are work on your Kali fighting. Because guns are just blunt impact tools without bullets and knives don't run out of bullets nor does your fist. And in close often both can best the overconfident poorly trained gun user.
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Post by Croccifixio on Sept 11, 2017 2:42:03 GMT
I regularly train FMA and for me this is the way to complete the training - master firearms.
I often hang out with several office security, most of whom are former/current Marine and Navy SOG. They really don't like the 9mm. At minimum, they carry .40 S&W. So I suppose their influence is making me second guess what I know about ballistics.
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Post by Croccifixio on Sept 11, 2017 2:46:53 GMT
Ok so this guy right now is offering me his Glock 17L for around $1300 transferred. It's heavily modded with these: •Frame is RTF2 •ZEV extended mag release •Chrome pin kits •Chromed extended slide release •Zev 3.5 connector •Zev Fulcrum adj trigger/bar •Zev Lightened Striker •Lonewolf Slide with butterfly cuts •Lonewolf Stainless Steel Threaded Barrel with thread cap •Magwell •Flat Fun Switch •TruGlo Fiber Optic Sights •Magazine well, slide barrel and magwell with Laser etched Punisher logos •Cerakote (frame midnight bronze and slide bronze mix) and stippling Currently looks like this: I know it looks a little bit over the top, but it's probably the best deal for a Glock I can get right now. I especially like the work done on the trigger, striker, and barrel. It supposedly shoots very well. Of course at this price, I can get my planned first two handguns so I haven't committed yet. And Armscor is gonna have a big sale this Friday so I want to see what they have first before anything else.
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harrybeck
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Post by harrybeck on Sept 11, 2017 2:50:22 GMT
The surest way to turn a glock into a brick is to mod it like that.
You want to stay as close to stock as you can until you become really familiar with the system and immediate action for it.
If you like revolvers a good Smith 38/357 is hard to beat
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Post by dchisenh on Sept 11, 2017 2:55:31 GMT
I was taught by my grandfather that shot placement is the key.
Then again, he did use an old lever action .30-30 to trim tree branches...
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I'd suggest you shoot a 9, 40 and 45 at a range and see which you like best. What platforms you end up using for the demo will have an effect, but you should get an idea of the difference in recoil, blast, etc...
After reading a bit about your particular situation though, I would choose extra capacity vs. increased knock-down. You might have to provide cover for family members to flee or until your security or the cops arrive. I'd rather have 17 rounds of 9mm instead of 8 rounds of 45 and an empty gun to throw at them!
Here in the US, I don't feel defenseless carrying a smaller .380 like a LCP when I don't feel like carrying a 9mm. Gangs of assassins aren't on my list of likely enemies, though.
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Post by dchisenh on Sept 11, 2017 3:00:24 GMT
The surest way to turn a flock into a brick is to mod it like that. You want to stay as close to stock as you can until you become really familiar with the system and immediate action for it. If you like revolvers a good Smith 38/357 is hard to beat This x1000! Are you sure it's actually still a glock? For dirt cheap, assuming you can find them over there, the S&W SD9VE is so cheap it's almost scary and after an Apex trigger and spring kit install, it's butter smooth and a hell of a shooter....at less than half the price of a glock. If you can afford a glock, get a stock one and practice.
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Post by Croccifixio on Sept 11, 2017 3:02:48 GMT
The surest way to turn a glock into a brick is to mod it like that. You want to stay as close to stock as you can until you become really familiar with the system and immediate action for it. If you like revolvers a good Smith 38/357 is hard to beat That's deeper than I was thinking. It's true - I've never even held a Glock at the range before. Just took my fancy for a bit. I'll update this thread on Friday, since that's judgment day of what I'll buy. Thanks for all the help! I'll go do a bit more research and visit the range on Wednesday to test fire the different 1911s. My driver carries a Tanfolgio and I'll use that to help me decide if I'll wait on the MAPP as well.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2017 3:03:09 GMT
Crocc- No way for concealed carry. No way.
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harrybeck
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Post by harrybeck on Sept 11, 2017 3:06:49 GMT
I like the fns9, the ruger 9E, and the M&P series. The fns9mm is my pic of the litter, good capacity, good design, accurate and easy to shoot.
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Post by Croccifixio on Sept 11, 2017 3:15:16 GMT
Crocc- No way for concealed carry. No way. No not for CC, more for a car gun than anything.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2017 4:08:35 GMT
Crocc- No way for concealed carry. No way. No not for CC, more for a car gun than anything. Not for car or home. No way. More modifications means more can go wrong. Ideally, if you are going to have multiple pistols, it's good if they are the same pistol or just different size versions. This allows for learning one form of gun operations, same ammo and same mags. For example, Glock 19 for concealed carry, Glock 19 with extended mags for car and home or Glock 17 for car and home. Or if your budget requires you to go the 1911 route, and use the family Colt compact you are getting, you could use it for concealed carry and another compact, commander or gov't. size for car and home. But if 1911, how will you carry it, cocked and locked, or chambered with hammer down (must remember to pull hammer back for first shot. Or not chambered and you must pull slide back for first shot). However, if the family 1911 Colt compact is all steel, you might not like the weight. Or go multiple revolvers, but to me, if your are in an environment where you need to reload under stress with a speed loader is no fun. Having said that, my wife's gun is a S&W .38 special j frame 442. Note: used Glock as an example since it has one of the simplest operating systems akin to a revolver. But as you know, many good choices out there. As to .40 Cal. Its a "snappy" round if ammo is mega fps as it was designed to be. I love my Sig Sauer P229 in .40 Cal. But with it's high bore axis and snappy round, I shoot the ugly, low bore axis, 9mm Glock 19, better (faster more accurate follow up shots). If you go .40 Cal, try to get a pistol with a low bore axis, like a Glock 23 (and it's mini me the 27).
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Post by Richard Arias on Sept 11, 2017 4:47:33 GMT
I regularly train FMA and for me this is the way to complete the training - master firearms. I often hang out with several office security, most of whom are former/current Marine and Navy SOG. They really don't like the 9mm. At minimum, they carry .40 S&W. So I suppose their influence is making me second guess what I know about ballistics. In my NRA instructor certification class 5 years ago I was the only non military or LEO out of a class of 25. And my instructor without hesitation said I was one of the best instructors there. Some of the other guys were army rangers, Marines ex. One younger soldier was a competitive military shooter. Yet part of our training was teaching and many good shots were Horrible teachers because they don't know much they do what they are told. They are hammers and hammers just see nails. Not to say that big bore isn't better yes big bullets have power and force... But at the trade off of weight, ease to concealed carry, cost ex. A .45 can't compete much with a hot load .44 mag or .454 casull round... Yet they are not carried because guns that chamber them are big and not practical. Even a 1911 (a fine gun) is not practical compared to other guns depending on needs. The caliber thing is mostly to make people feel safer. Feel confident that they have that "stop em in 1 round" gun. And that myth I can trace back to the early 20's and It's examined by William Fairbairn and Rex Applegate to be a confidence booster. Much like the "matchbox technique" that spawned the belief that a fist pack gives people 1 punch knockout power. Fairbairn even had a "timetable of death" for knife techniques to make soldiers feel if they cut of stabbed people at points in his body map they would die in seconds. Confidence is a big thing even the Japanese spread rumors in WW2 of swords cutting machine gun barrels. And I am sure a lot of people believe it. Notice how all these rounds you "must have" for defense are more money.... At a certain point people are going off what they are told and it's their choice. I have never read an account of a small caliber gun user dying after shooting someone that wasn't poor shot placement. Gun people are like car people or anything else... They just like what they like with a cult mind sometimes. In the end you matter most. Accurately, Consistency and Reliability outweigh the bullet any day.
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Post by Croccifixio on Sept 11, 2017 6:57:15 GMT
I certainly see that in many FMA circles. Heck, even in sword collecting circles such as this.
In this vein, do you have some specific guns which you would encourage me to try and fire at a range? As stated, I've already gone through 1911s in 45 ACP and I love them, but haven't yet given much attention to the wondernines. I know I have to try a Glock sometime soon too. Sorry for all these questions btw, but the need is a bit more immediate than most (hence the M16 being issued to me and the paperwork being done within a few days).
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Post by Croccifixio on Sept 11, 2017 7:08:08 GMT
No not for CC, more for a car gun than anything. Not for car or home. No way. More modifications means more can go wrong. Ideally, if you are going to have multiple pistols, it's good if they are the same pistol or just different size versions. This allows for learning one form of gun operations, same ammo and same mags. For example, Glock 19 for concealed carry, Glock 19 with extended mags for car and home or Glock 17 for car and home. Or if your budget requires you to go the 1911 route, and use the family Colt compact you are getting, you could use it for concealed carry and another compact, commander or gov't. size for car and home. But if 1911, how will you carry it, cocked and locked, or chambered with hammer down (must remember to pull hammer back for first shot. Or not chambered and you must pull slide back for first shot). However, if the family 1911 Colt compact is all steel, you might not like the weight. Or go multiple revolvers, but to me, if your are in an environment where you need to reload under stress with a speed loader is no fun. Having said that, my wife's gun is a S&W .38 special j frame 442. Note: used Glock as an example since it has one of the simplest operating systems akin to a revolver. But as you know, many good choices out there. As to .40 Cal. Its a "snappy" round if ammo is mega fps as it was designed to be. I love my Sig Sauer P229 in .40 Cal. But with it's high bore axis and snappy round, I shoot the ugly, low bore axis, 9mm Glock 19, better (faster more accurate follow up shots). If you go .40 Cal, try to get a pistol with a low bore axis, like a Glock 23 (and it's mini me the 27). These are the alleged ballistics of the rounds available to me at the most affordable rates. Which is why I kinda like the numbers of the 38 Super :P
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seth
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Post by seth on Sept 11, 2017 21:05:40 GMT
"Although I suppose I could practice with Armscor first then just carry the Federal." This is pretty common in the States. Shoot the cheaper stuff for practice and carry the expensive hollow-points. However, once you select a self-defense load, bite the bullet and put a few boxes through your weapon to make sure it feeds reliably. And, once a year or so, go ahead a shoot off the ammo you've been carrying and replace it with fresh stuff. As to the choice of guns, there are so many, but you said in the OP that you had access to free .40 and .45. For me, that would be the determining factor. Access to free ammo means you will likely practice more and more practice will make you more proficient. For human defense calibers in semi-autos, 9 mm, .40 and .45 are all good with proper self-defense loads (the FBI is switching from .40 back to 9 mm). Since it is free, I personally would choose the .40. It's a great round--plenty of power and guns that fire it have good capacity. I like the .38 super and love the 10 mm, but for your needs, the 9, 40 or 45 seem like better options. Many .40 caliber handguns come in full-size, compact and sub-compact models so one caliber can be used for home defense, car carry and concealed carry. Sometimes the magazines are interchangeable. If you find something you like to shoot and shoot well, go with it. For defense in your home, you may want to consider a shotgun as someone else suggested. Double 00 buck is a fantastic self-defense load in close confines. It also is less likely to penetrate walls (however it still can!). Can you get a small closet safe to store it in? Drill in your home, memorize what is behind every wall. I hope that knowledge never has to be used. Best wishes and stay safe.
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Post by Croccifixio on Sept 11, 2017 21:38:28 GMT
Hey Seth, thanks for the advice. I'm indeed leaning on just one caliber for everything. A friend of mine who used to be a banker is urging me to get a machine pistol for the car. As for the house, I'll have a rifle there just in case.
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harrybeck
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Post by harrybeck on Sept 11, 2017 22:15:42 GMT
what machine pistols are available to you> i imagine a G18 is probably among them. An MP is useful in very limited circumstances, such as breaking an ambush. if it's a G18 i wold go for it and usually keep it on semi and use it as a normal pistol, get extended mags for reserve and you'll have a pretty good sidearm.
get a good fixed blade knife and a good folder, i hope you already have a good cellphone.
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Post by Richard Arias on Sept 12, 2017 1:09:38 GMT
I certainly see that in many FMA circles. Heck, even in sword collecting circles such as this. In this vein, do you have some specific guns which you would encourage me to try and fire at a range? As stated, I've already gone through 1911s in 45 ACP and I love them, but haven't yet given much attention to the wondernines. I know I have to try a Glock sometime soon too. Sorry for all these questions btw, but the need is a bit more immediate than most (hence the M16 being issued to me and the paperwork being done within a few days). The gun will be your preference. So look at compact and sub compact 9mm (M&P sheild are guns I like the Ruger Pocket 9s are another) and see what you like with the selected caliber and size. I would suggest going to your local range and shooting rentals and getting a liking for a caliber and platform. And just see how your accuracy and consistency is. My rule of thumb for my students is if you can't group all of your shots into a standard sheet of binder or printer paper then the gun and caliber might not be for you. And I am taking draw, point shoot not taking and eternity to aim and fire. I also don't care about accuracy at 25 yards... speed drills should be done at 3-5 yards and maximum distance for point shoot accuracy is usually 7 yards I don't pistol shoot beyond 10. Those are shotgun and rifle engagements. Go get your hands on guns and crunch your own data :)
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Post by howler on Sept 12, 2017 1:35:18 GMT
9mm is real nice for the super small, lightweight, compact firearms. I carry OWB full size firearms, and I count G19 as full size, btw (them calling it compact is a joke). If you can get a convertible, drop in barrel ability (think I mentioned this earlier), you might consider that option, as it would turn a G22/23 (.40cal) into a G17/19 (9mm) or even .357sig (don't know the model #'s). You can do a simple conversion for target practice, or a more permanent alteration, for reliability. The .40 really shines if you think you may be going against automobile windshield glass. Just practice with different loads until you find one you shoot best, as some are less snappy than others and you have a big difference in bullet weight and velocity. If your into guns, you will probably end up with more than a couple because of the huge difference in specific applications. Consider, a Kel-Tec 3AT weighs around 8oz, and a S&W 627 8 shot weighs 42oz. You can literally carry the Kel-Tec in a pocket protector upper shirt or front jean pocket and not even know it is there...a true pocket handgun.
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Post by stopped1 on Sept 12, 2017 5:13:45 GMT
So, I never really thought to arm myself anytime soon, but the state of my country and certain personal circumstances necessitate that I bite the bullet (pun intended) and grab myself a handgun or two. I was always a gun fan though, and have shot before with an M16 and a .45 ACP Taurus so I somewhat have an idea of what I want. My thoughts are: Handgun 1: Full-sized 1911 base, single-stack large caliber (choices are either 40 S&W, 38 Super, 45 ACP, or 10mm). Right now I'm leaning towards the 38 Super because of the mix between power and control. However, its ammo is the most expensive (least expensive would be the 40 and 10mm) from where I live, so training would definitely be more expensive. Also, I have access to a large supply of free 45 ACP and 40 S&W so those options are much more attractive for marksmanship training. Use would be for home defense, inside a vehicle, inside my office, and in any open/public space. As such, what caliber should I choose? Some additional factors that might have to be taken into consideration: I live in a condominium unit with my wife, two baby girls, and two other women so while there is some security at the lobby, it's not really enough. Also the place isn't big, so maybe there is a risk of over penetration. On the plus side, there are really good places to take cover while reloading. Handgun 2: 9mm for concealed carry. Ideally it would be in a compact Glock-style platform, but the availability of compact guns here isn't all that good, and what's available is often quite expensive which necessitates some saving up. I will most likely save up for a CZ P10c or Glock 19 Gen 4/5 (these guns are almost double the US price) for next year, but in the meantime I will have to resort to other options. These other options are basically a CZ SP01/EAA Witness clone (basically Tanfolgio - the Armscor/RIA MAP1/MAPP) in double stack form (16 mag capacity), or a compact 1911 Colt Commander/Officer-style (with a 4.25 inch/3.5 inch barrel, in single stack form). The reason I need one now is that I often enter places which have strict gun rules, and I plan to ignore those rules to ensure my/my family's safety. So the concealability of the 1911 is probably the most important aspect of it, but the firepower of 16+1 is tempting. Also, I have access to almost an unlimited supply of 9mm (well not really unlimited, but basically the government arsenal) so I can practice practice practice right off the bat. So, which one? Option 3: Combine both into 1 package and just get a single expensive gun. If so, what gun? I am honestly drawn to the 10mm double stack that houses 16+1 but I definitely cannot conceal that. A Glock 17 would need further accessories to perform to the level I want, and good defensive 9mm rounds like hydra shok are really expensive. Glocks in 40 or 45 are relatively rare and not very cheap at all so I wouldn't even be able to afford mods for that. Thanks for the help friends! A lot of the advice your getting isn't wrong or bad. It's just not exactly compete unbiased advice considering a lot of major factors. #1 if a gun is easy for you to carry your going to do it a lot (should be every day) and if it's comfortable you can forgot it's there until needed. -45acp is a big bullet and even my Colt Commander is a big and heavy gun compared to a lot of other options. It's hard to hide from a keen eye and you never forget it's there. Many .40 cal have similar issues. - Look at some Compact and Sub Compact Options. 9mm is likely to be the biggest caliber (but with modern performance ammo this isn't an issue for people who know defensive shooting) - A five shot hammerless revolvers are good options. Being able to shoot a .38 or .357 gives you choices at price and power. In close engagement an automatic can fail in odd unexpected ways (being in a pocket, tangled in a shirt, or against the body to much). Bottom line if the slide does not cycle you have a dead gun until it does. And revolves can be instinctive and reliable for new shooters at the cost of capacity. #2 Caliber will almost never matter as much as accuracy (shot placement). You could have a .500 Smith and if you can't hit what your aiming at it won't matter. I have to many students shooting big bore when they are much more accurate and consistent with a .38 of 9mm. -9mm is a solid option there is a reason is a standard caliber for many branches of police and military. Modern ammo have dealt with size ( 9mm hallow point has plenty of diameter.) And power is also no longer an issue with +P and +P+ ammo that has similar power and ballistic performance to a .357 Magnum. #3 Cost and Practice for skills..... 9mm is cheap as is .38 special. All of the big bore and specialty rounds like .38 super or .357 Sig are more expensive. What matters is no matter the gun you have to train to be accurate, consistent and reliable with it in a variety of scenario. And if your going to carry that is once a week to the range (twice a month bare minimum). Overall: You have to get to a range or gun shop and get your hands on guns and see what feels good. What do you like, what do you shoot well, and what is the cost to develop and keep your skill set? Buying a gun is like a car, it's going to be with you every day and your either going to love it of you made a bad buy or hate it and be learning a lesson for your next buy if you don't. I have taught a few people in your situation and after a few classes and experience the gun they buy is often not the gun they had in mind because Carry Comfort, Ammo Cost and their performance with the gun often points them in a new direction. I don't agree with what Richard very often, but I think he is spot on. Don't take the politician's approach, go and try and train before you decide. Stopping power of a good 38/9mm jhp isn't far off from 40/45, it is where you hit that counts. How recoil sensitive are you? 99% of all people develop finching if they start off with bigger calibre. It takes years to get rid of once you start doing it. If I have $1000, I would rather be the guy with a $300 gun and $700 worth of training and ammo than the other way around. Daily carry is a big dea, most people get tried of of even a compact 9mm, especially in summer. A cheap makarov/cz83/ppk pocket pistol or two Inch 38 is better than no pistol. Here is my take on yr options 1911 (or high cap version), forget it, if you want it to be fast you carry cock n locked, anyone who asks question about carrying in this mode shouldn't do it. Cz 75 and clones are my personal favorite as standard guns go, accurate outta the box. Good sights, fairly slim n no sharp edges. Don't knock the norinco nz75, they are will built and heat treat is great, just bloody rough n ugly, they work well. I would pick cz75 compact if I can only have one. Glocks, I hate them but will be what tell people to get if they dont train much. Any russian "viking" pistols your side of the world? Solid reible small and cheap Go to tge range n be happy
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