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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2008 13:49:46 GMT
That great video of Toshishiro Obata Kaiso's Old Tameshigiri Footage in the SBG digest this month:
got me thinking about my grip.
He holds the tsuka with his left (or rear) hand well above the kashira. Do you do this? Why? Does it work well?
I have been using a much more distal grip (it is what I have been taught), I think I need to go check this out. I want to know what you guys do and think about it.
Thanks DJM
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jun 4, 2008 16:30:34 GMT
I've always been told to grip the katana with a one-fist gap between my hands. honestly we could be over analizing things here, I would expect that his body mechanics are more of a factor in what he can do than his grip. look at the way his whole makes the cut happen. beautiful. just occured to me, he could be gripping that way for some reason we mere mortals don't understand. maybe it is only right in conjunction with something else and we don't know what. . . just thinking in print. . . wow that guy is always fun to watch.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2008 22:02:39 GMT
Um ok, I didn't actually think he was that good but he wasn't bad.
Dj: I am trying to work out what you are saying here, I think I am missing it, as far as I can tell his grip is fairly standard, it is the way I learnt to do it in ninjitsu.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2008 23:33:51 GMT
Let me try to clarify: I was taught to actually put the kashira in the palm of my left hand and then (as you said) one fist up put my right hand. Then, I have to remind myself to rotate my wrists toward one another But I am sure that is just me I was wondering is this just a reflection of the fact that my Sabunim's hands are huge? Or is it perhaps a personal preference? Could it be because it is Kumdo? Or, or, or .... I haven't had a chance to bring it up with my instructor yet, and suspected that I would find an opinion here, So I asked. I was curious to see if the varied traditions studied on this forum taught specific grips and what those differences were. Yes, Ianfleer perhaps I am overanalysing - Curiosity is a hazard of my professional training I guess. DJMahoney
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2008 2:51:56 GMT
Dj: I think the grip you are using is a personal preference thing, there are many ways to grip a sword. As I said, in ninjitsu we get taught several grips, you will notice also that Toshihiro has a tendency to change his grip depending on what he is cutting.
There is nothing wrong with overanalysing, I do it all the time when I am teaching my students, it's what makes a technique a technique and it is what makes techniques work.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2008 5:09:44 GMT
Take a look at a real sword. Right above the kashira there is a knot where the tsuka-ito terminates. The side of your hand should rest on top of that knot, as in it's stopping your hand from sliding down any farther.
From my understanding, this is the standard way to hold the real sword. While holding a bokken or shinai the preferred position seems to be with the pinkie almost, but not quite, wrapped below the tsuka.
Why the difference? I don't know. Maybe it's knot comfortable to have that knot in the palm of your hand.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2008 10:03:32 GMT
nothing more, nothing less.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2008 21:25:09 GMT
Take a look at a real sword. Right above the kashira there is a knot where the tsuka-ito terminates. The side of your hand should rest on top of that knot, as in it's stopping your hand from sliding down any farther. From my understanding, this is the standard way to hold the real sword. While holding a bokken or shinai the preferred position seems to be with the pinkie almost, but not quite, wrapped below the tsuka. Why the difference? I don't know. Maybe it's knot comfortable to have that knot in the palm of your hand. That's basically how we are taught in Shinkendo. The right hand is just below the tsuba, with maybe your index finger knuckle touching it, but not your thumb knuckle. The left hand is about one fist below the right, but still above the kashira. The whole hand should be on the tsuka-ito. As you described, the hands/writsts are turned in, in what we call a 'C' grip . The blade should be inline with your writsts, more or less. I know my grip shifts around as I'm practicing and going into different swings and blocks. I just try to remember to return them to the proper grip during/after. Obata is always fun to watch doing test cutting. I really enjoy seeing him cut the bamboo, or a kesa cut, flip and kiragi cut the piece that was just cut off, while it's falling. Awesome. The Shinkendo Federation now has a Youtube Channel with tons of footage from demos and dojo practice.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2008 17:39:01 GMT
I was wondering is this just a reflection of the fact that my Sabunim's hands are huge? Or is it perhaps a personal preference? Could it be because it is Kumdo? Or, or, or .... That's very likely. If you went to the different Japanese ryu and asked this question you would get several answers. I am sure that kumdo is different in many ways. I say stick to the way you are taught, and try not to get confused.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2008 21:50:31 GMT
I was taught to keep my left hand just above the kashira, so that the whole kashira is visible. I agree with kortoso, do it the way you were taught, and if you have questions, your sensei might be able to give you an explanation on why you're supposed to hold the sword that way in kumdo.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2008 2:22:15 GMT
I have been taught many different ways to handle a sword, with many different grips and each one provides a certain advantage. The way your sensei has taught you is the way he wants you to learn it, so just learn it really. Also if you don't understand why something is done ask your sensei he must have a reason.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2008 11:52:50 GMT
we get "the grip test" at least once or twice a month. Sensei has us hold a bokken as we were initially instructed to achieve proper grip and tries to whack it out of our hand with another bokken. Just to see we've forgotten or gotten lazy and changed the way we grip. Good constant reminder to maintain grip the proper way. As blood said, your sensei will probably show you just how he/she wants you to properly grip the sword, so I'd probably stick to that. We were told that you need to keep the pads of your palm at the base of your hands on top of the tsuka (or at least in contact with the top at all times). When you grip the sword, wring your hands together like you were wringing out a towel towards the center and keep them there, almost til it seems uncomfortable. even when the sword is over your head. If it's too uncomfortable when over head, you push your hands up more. Does that make sense? hope so heh ChopChop grip looks great in the above picture. I was told that if the fingers on my right hand are too far past the menuki then I will likely not have the pads in contact with the tsukas top edge and my grip will fail.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2008 12:31:57 GMT
This pic seems similar to Chop Chop's but I'll throw it up because it shows different angles and I found it very useful to improve my cutting. So... get your grip comfy holding it in one hand with the sword roughly horizontal and then put the other one on in the same manner! Very minimalist, but Toshiro Obata's instructions work for me! (Even with viking swords!!)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2008 16:10:27 GMT
Thanks for all the responses guys! The pics are especially helpful. Thanks Chop Chop and vyapada +1. Vypada, were these pics of Toshiro Obata? The bottom right pic of vypada's shows the rotation of the wrists very nicely. Riggins, holding that rotation while over the head IS really hard The pictured techniques are pretty much exactly as I was taught, and attempt to acheive whenever I practice. My curiosity was piqued when I saw the video of Obata and noticed in some cuts he had about a fist worth's of Tsuka sticking out from the bottom of his left hand. I was wondering was it a Ryu preference, a personal preference, perhaps he even picked up a sword that day with a longer tsuka than he usually prefers? Of course, I will continue to try to do as Sensei/Sabunim instructs. He always has very good reasons for teaching things the way he does. I am lucky to have an instructor that I trust implicitly. DJM
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2008 1:48:34 GMT
Yep, the pics I posted was of Toshiro Obata... Can't remember where I got 'em though. Regarding rotation... in that set of pics there was small instructiosn that I cut out because they really just followed the pics, it doesn't mention active rotation - just getting your hand over the sword so it can be held comfortably in one hand. Active wringing of the tsuka seems to go against widespread advice to hold the tsuka in a relaxed manner and I know that when I've tried it the blade deviates as I try to maintain the rotation through a swing. I have found personally that pressing with the fingertips into the hand (like halfswording - in a direction perpendicular through the tsuka, not trying to make a fist around it) helps keep edge alignment much better.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2008 8:47:24 GMT
My curiosity was piqued when I saw the video of Obata and noticed in some cuts he had about a fist worth's of Tsuka sticking out from the bottom of his left hand. I was wondering was it a Ryu preference, a personal preference, perhaps he even picked up a sword that day with a longer tsuka than he usually prefers? The sword may differ, but the grip remains the same. If one were to grip a nodachi e.t.c all that would differ would be the extra-long tsuka would 'stick out from the bottom of your left-hand'. You would not grip a nodachi's tsuka with one hand placed at either end of the tsuka. In SMR there is a base stance called Honte. It involves the above grip but with a Jo rather than a katana. A Jo is 10 inches longer than a standard katana, hence one of the main advantages. The Jo is not held at right angles to the body of the user, but at about an 75 degree angle in front of your body therefore being if the weapon is 'too big' for the user he/she will still be able to use and maneouvre it. It is a very effective stance as it enables any user to weild any length of tsuka on a sword, without winding yourself in the stomach after every cut .
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2008 11:01:36 GMT
So... I have no training in this area and I don't know the context of this photo... but this old guy disagrees with ya!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2008 11:22:43 GMT
As does Owari Kan Ryu.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2008 13:54:11 GMT
So... I have no training in this area and I don't know the context of this photo... but this old guy disagrees with ya! Yes it's true, every ryu has its own differences that make it unique. It would have been great if it had of showed him drawing the thing. It is like a good Western, somethings work better on horseback ! ;D
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2008 16:39:30 GMT
Also, if the left hand is at/nearer to the kashira then you have better leverage. Provided of course, that the sword is constructed properly and the nakago extends to the end of the tsuka. Maybe that "old guy" is where Hanwei got the idea for their Odachi prototype? www.cashanwei.com/art_tradeblade2008.aspthey promise video soon.
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