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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jun 19, 2008 5:12:04 GMT
I think she's talking about Okesagiri and kogesagiri.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2008 19:30:39 GMT
Ian, I couldn't find those techniques on Google, but found kesagiri on you tube, that looks similar to the shoulder to pelvis cut I was talking about. I have to get a book with the Japanese terms and pics I only know a few of them in Korean. BW, Part of our basic practice cuts include two different diagonal cuts, in horse riding/sitting/squatting stance. One at about 15 degree from vertical to the middle (I think of the ear, but suspect the goal is disembowelment) and another at about 40-45 degrees from vertical (clavicle one). I am talking about the 40-45 degree cuts. These are the ones that are giving me problems. I played with it a little today and I found that if I concentrate on using ten uchi and proper elbow alignment it gets better. Thanks again, D BTW BW I noticed a change in your sig. Can I Karma you now? Cuz, if I can, you gonna get Karma all ova you face!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2008 19:48:52 GMT
Kesa Giri means diagonal Cut.
O means big, and Ko means small.
Hope that clarifies.
As for actually DOING kesa-giri:
The feeling should be the same as makko-giri(vertical downward cut). Your arms and hands stay in front of your center the whole time(i.e. do NOT let the sword out to one side like a baseball bat). The diagonal direction of the cut comes from hip rotation and transferring a little extra weight onto the front foot.
Though the hands follow the same path(relative to your body) throughout the cut, because your hips(and therefore your shoulders) are rotating throughout, it gives the sword a diagonal path through the air. The only difference in your hands is you have to align your edge to it's true path in the air to get a clean cut.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2008 1:35:58 GMT
Sounds so easy, I will keep trying ... until I get it This is great, Thanks Adam! +1
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2008 5:02:25 GMT
Practicing slowly in front of a mirror helps me a lot.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jun 20, 2008 5:53:29 GMT
DJ, Adam is right: O and ko meaning big and small kesa giri wich is the diagonal strike. by the way this is named after the garment (kesa) worn by monks as the cut would follow the same line as the monks robe's hem. For more detailed info a picture is worth a thousand words (so about like 2.5 of my posts) anyway look here: www.hksword.com/3_info/3_3_cutting/cut_body/
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2008 6:00:17 GMT
Yeah I changed my sig, I'm going to change it again to "don't unnecessarily karma me but if you are doing it genuinely then please feel free." I am not sure what I have done to earn your karma but if you want to
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2008 2:53:39 GMT
Adam, it has been drilled into me that the mirror is my second master, this is great advice! I think slowing down will help too. BW, you have been gracious, kind, patient, and extremely helpful! The consumate gentleman... a measly Karma does not do justice to how comfortable you have made me feel here. Thank you and +1 ;D Ian thank you for the link +1, when I can. I will learn at least some of the proper terms so that I can communicate properly here. Yes, it is Okesa (#5 in the diagram) that I am having the most trouble with getting a good tachikaze with. Okesa from my right to left is harder than left to right. I am pretty sure it is my blade alignment. I will slow down and concentrate on my form more. I REALLY like having a bo hi I am getting to fix a lot of my techniques. On a related note, I just learned recently that nihonto used to be tested on live people I know, what rock was I living under DJM
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jun 21, 2008 5:30:29 GMT
DJ, on getting that tachikaze, I think you're moving in the right direction with going slow infront of a mirror to get the idea of where you whent wrong. sometimes it feels wrong to twist the blade any more (or less) than the angle you want to swing it at but if you do suddenly there's the tachikaze again. when doing your fast work not only should you achieve a tachikaze but listen to it. you will notice it has a crisper sound the better your alignment is. so don't just listen for there/not there, listen to the pitch and timbre of the sound too. you will know when you get really good alignment, it will jump out at you.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2008 7:00:52 GMT
If you can get tachi-kaze with a sword without bo-hi - that's when you know your alignment is good.
Also note the difference between the high pitched 'sheeeeooo' sound of true tachi-kaze, vs. the 'foosh' sound of the flat of your blade merely fanning the air...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2008 7:04:14 GMT
Well... shucks :">
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2008 13:24:16 GMT
You can hear the difference with a bokken/mokkum too, but I think it is easier to hear it with a bo hi.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2008 7:05:45 GMT
I need to experiment more with ten uchi it seems, the times I have tried it, it makes me feel like a robot, everything feels very tight and inhibits my ability to flow. Maybe I am doing it wrong, I have never been taught how to do it properly after all, ninjitsu doesn't really have ten uchi. I agree completely. I just took my first class Friday night, and that was the one thing I consistently screwed up on. My Sensei said I picked up EVERYTHING quickly, excepting a proper grip. The proper grip and motions actually cause slight pain (more uncomfortable tightness I suppose) in my left hand, between my thumb and index finger (the tendon there), and also behind my thumb area on top of my forearm. I'm sure it's just a matter of tight tendons and will go away with practice...but man, does that motion make me feel 'jerky'. I don't know any other way to describe it. He describes it as 'wringing a towel' or 'casting a fly fishing rod' lol. I'm not a big one for dishes, and I've never done any fly fishing so I'm having a bit of a tough time with it =). He loaned me his ironwood subori to practice at home with though. Said pick a tree, wrap it with foam, and go at it with kesagiri from the left and right (not sure the proper terms). The instructions were to begin slow...concentrating hard on proper hand placement...then just let it flow into harder and harder strikes. I did it, after awhile the uncomfortable tightness lessened. It didn't go away, but I think it will. The motion never became smooth I think, but I could feel an improvement. Anyhow, probably too much information about my experience with the 'ten uchi'. More on topic (and for what it's worth!)...my Sensei taught me to hold the sword loosely with my pinkey and ring fingers mostly, just below the fuchi, and approximately right above the kashira (not hanging over). Cris
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2008 1:28:03 GMT
It seems there are some surprising differences. From Cheness web site (14 inch tsuka): Standard two handed katana grip proves the balance, feel, and cutting performance of a traditional full length katana. The strength of the long nakago extends deep into the tsuka. The monouchi of your sword would be at the same location as a standard katana when using this grip. The easiest cutting grip for this blade. Two handed grip choked upwards proves extensive leverage to power through heavier targets. With a bulk of the weight below your right hand, the blade feels almost weightless... allowing for fast changes in directions. However, without the forward weight distribution, it is a more challanging grip for cutting. I was taught tol hold a katana this way, with the pinky finger behind the kashira, but with a space between the right hand and the tsuba: Properly positioning both the left and the right hands. Notice the smallest finger of the left hand. This allows the widest possible spacing between the hands, especially with smaller swords. It also "seats" the sword properly in the hands. This is the gripping style of the Kukishin Ryu. From: www.mbdojo.com/katanagrip.html
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2008 3:21:55 GMT
I personally like a longer tsuka (14") because I like the leverage and the speed. The secret to ten uchi that I have come to understand is that you "wring" the tsuka just as you hit the target and stop "wringing" it after the cut has passed. This is very hard to do and I have managed to mess it up several times. I find that wringing the tsuka just before the strike and then letting it go just as you stop the blade it makes for a very effective and impressive cut. The problem with ninjitsu is that the hand positions change so much for the different cuts, for the most part our bottom hand is actually slightly lower than the one pictured above. A staggered menuki is very useful for learning how to grip the tsuka properly. Staggered menuki I also find very comfortable and it just makes it that much easier to make cut because of that slight raise in the ito which gives you more in your hands. Kind of hard to explain but I hope that you understand what I mean.
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Post by salvatore on Dec 10, 2008 4:35:52 GMT
I remember Isao Machii saying that that grip style is a "Secret". Not in terms of Shinkendo, but his style teaches the same method. I have used the Obata/Machii grip style before, gives you lots of control in my opinion. And I get lots of Tachikazes. Lot of different grip styles for lots of different techniques and schools, kinda hard to keep up with them all...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2008 18:02:37 GMT
DJ, Adam is right: O and ko meaning big and small kesa giri wich is the diagonal strike. by the way this is named after the garment (kesa) worn by monks as the cut would follow the same line as the monks robe's hem. For more detailed info a picture is worth a thousand words (so about like 2.5 of my posts) anyway look here: www.hksword.com/3_info/3_3_cutting/cut_body/ Great thread guys. I always just called these cuts, small priest robe and large priest robe. Nice to see a open and free exchange of knowledge, without anyone getting preachy. And none of that ask your sensei cr$p.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2008 18:04:21 GMT
My sensei reminds me not to make too much of tachi-kaze. Most beginners don't extend their weapon out far enough from the beginning of the cut. Don't cut with the arm, extend your arms and cut with the hips instead.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2008 18:56:37 GMT
DJ, Adam is right: O and ko meaning big and small kesa giri wich is the diagonal strike. by the way this is named after the garment (kesa) worn by monks as the cut would follow the same line as the monks robe's hem. For more detailed info a picture is worth a thousand words (so about like 2.5 of my posts) anyway look here: www.hksword.com/3_info/3_3_cutting/cut_body/ Great thread guys. I always just called these cuts, small priest robe and large priest robe. Nice to see a open and free exchange of knowledge, without anyone getting preachy. And none of that ask your sensei cr$p. This is true =). The other nice thing about it here is that the majority HAVE formal training and are or have a sensei. Most that ask questions here are asking to clarify something they're learning from that sensei...so it works out well. Cris
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