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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2008 18:00:14 GMT
Yep, the pics I posted was of Toshiro Obata... Can't remember where I got 'em though. Regarding rotation... in that set of pics there was small instructiosn that I cut out because they really just followed the pics, it doesn't mention active rotation - just getting your hand over the sword so it can be held comfortably in one hand. Active wringing of the tsuka seems to go against widespread advice to hold the tsuka in a relaxed manner and I know that when I've tried it the blade deviates as I try to maintain the rotation through a swing. I have found personally that pressing with the fingertips into the hand (like halfswording - in a direction perpendicular through the tsuka, not trying to make a fist around it) helps keep edge alignment much better. You don't hold it with the wringing out at all times. Only as you make a swing, or a block. All other times, you keep a more relaxed, loose grip. Otherwise your hands get tired very quick and you loose grip during a fight very quickly. It's about preserving your energy, and enduring through a fight. So it's the hands over the top as you said, relaxed. The sword comes up, and as you swing down you wring it out, twisting towards the center. When the blade is stopped, you relax your hands again. Rinse repeat.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2008 20:48:29 GMT
That 'wringing' is call Ten-Uchi. It refers to both the active and sudden inward rotation of the wrists and elbows during a cut, and also to the relaxed grip on the sword - which in any case should always position the wrists on top of the tsuka.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2008 21:52:01 GMT
Ah ha, it has a name. Thank you Adam!
I think I understood you, but to elaborate I looked up Ten Uchi and found the wikipedia def:
For cutting, there was a specific technique called "ten-uchi." Ten-uchi refers to an organized motion made by arms and wrist, during a descending strike. As the sword is swung downwards, the elbow joint drastically extends at the last instant, popping the sword into place. This motion causes the swordsman's grip to twist slightly and if done correctly, is said to feel like wringing a towel (Thomas Hooper-sensei reference). This motion itself caused the nihontô's blade to impact its target with sharp force, and is used to break initial resistance. From there, fluidly continuing along the motion wrought by ten-uchi, the arms would follow through with the stroke, dragging the sword through its target. Because the nihontô slices rather than chops, it is this "dragging" which allows it to do maximum damage, and is thusly incorporated into the cutting technique. At full speed, the swing will appear to be full stroke, the nihontô passing through the targeted object. The segments of the swing are hardly visible, if at all. Assuming that the target is, for example, a human torso, ten-uchi will break the initial resistance supplied by shoulder muscles and the clavicle. The follow through would continue the slicing motion, through whatever else it would encounter, until the blade inherently exited the body, due a combination of the motion and its curved shape.
The poster does not mention the relaxation part much, but it is Wikipedia (large grains of salt sprinkling over this post) For instance, I was taught not to "wring the tsuka like a towel".
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2008 2:22:53 GMT
I was alway taught to keep a firm but relaxed grip at all times, especially when cutting but then as I have seen from my explanations of how to make a good cut we all differ and there is really no grounds to disagree with the way one person does it if that is how they were taught. I was taught the push and pull method for example and it works extremely well, whether that has to do with practice or the technique remains to be seen but it does work.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2008 10:04:51 GMT
Gentlemen, thanks for the info about Ten-Uchi, it is definitely something I will consider and try to incorporate into my practice.
Like bloodwraith, I am also a fan of a push/pull method - I like to think that I am trying to spread the tsuka apart... I find it really helps with tip control and preventing overswing.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2008 13:27:33 GMT
The way I was taught was as I push pulled the blade I would apply backwards pressure so the blade didn't cut to far but still cut fast and clean.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2008 14:31:32 GMT
Again, something else to try, thanks mate!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2008 14:47:28 GMT
Hopefully when I get my new katana I will be able to borrow my housemate's video camera and actually put up some video of how I cut so that people won't think I am all talk.
That backwards pressure also allows you to apply more pressure to effortlessly change the direction of the blade or perform rapid cuts.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2008 18:34:42 GMT
Which new katana would that be? This has been really great to get everyone's different perspective. Thanks!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2008 19:45:18 GMT
This you see a lot in kendo - snapping hits. Generally, from my iai training and my own cutting experience, the rotation of the elbows and wrists (ten-uchi) works better when it's smooth and gradual, rather than a SNAP right at that instant - which really interferes with one's ability to maintain proper fluid relaxation.
My own opinion is that the feeling of rotating your wrists and elbow inward(and on top of the tsuka) is to keep the edge aligned, and to further facilitate the transfer of energy through your body(even from your feet on the ground) and into the sword without muscular tension.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2008 1:40:14 GMT
I was also taught never to hyper extend the elbow during cutting or when performing any other martial arts either.
Dj: You will just have to wait and see but lets just say I am excited!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2008 3:18:04 GMT
So, I gave the ten-uchi a go and it took a while to integrate it into my usual push pull but like Adam said, it really helps keep a relaxed grip and good edge alignment. I never thought I'd be able to cut empty 2L soft drink bottles but I certainly surprised myself today! Thanks for the tips guys!
I'm really glad that we can have such a healthy exchange of ideas and experience and can avoid the 'ask your sensei' type of attitude prevalent elsewhere.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2008 3:46:44 GMT
The ten uchi is a very good technique and I do see the benefits of it, I just like to stay relaxed, the only way there is any effort in the way I was taught to cut is when you stop the blade and applying backwards pressure, everything else should flow effortlessly.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2008 4:45:19 GMT
I agree. Properly done, ten-uchi facilitates that.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2008 5:12:04 GMT
I need to experiment more with ten uchi it seems, the times I have tried it, it makes me feel like a robot, everything feels very tight and inhibits my ability to flow. Maybe I am doing it wrong, I have never been taught how to do it properly after all, ninjitsu doesn't really have ten uchi.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2008 3:26:25 GMT
Just for clarification; tenuchi should cause the arms to be equally extended, but never lock the elbows. This means that since the left hand is closer to your body, that wrist has to turn in more than the right.
Also, I don't understand what is meant by the "Push-pull" method. I've never seen a JSA that did not teach tenuchi.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2008 4:34:01 GMT
The push-pull method is where you push down with the top hand as you pull back with the bottom hand as you make your cut.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jun 18, 2008 3:40:02 GMT
for some reason I hadn't read this thread again after my initial post. the thing they are all talking about with the "wringing" of the hands or keeping the heels of your hands on top of the tsuka is a really good idea. a few years ago some buddies of mine started asking me about my sword experience and about using a sword etc. and the next thing I knew I was teaching three brand newbies what I knew. one of things I showed them was to grip their swords that way and they didn't want to because it wasn't comfortable. so I started taking their sword away any time we sparred (we used padded shinai). there were many different way I could do it but the reason it worked was I would pull the tsuka up through their thumbs. if you've ever had to break someones grip on you, if you know what you're doing, you work against their thumb. the thumb is the weak point in a grip. if you don't wring your hands together over the top of the tsuke then both your thumbs are on top and that's a weak grip and you can lose your sword easily. if you look at the pictures vyapada posted you'll see what I mean in the bottom right one. those hands are properly gripping the sword but you can see how it would be easy to relaxe the hands and have both thumbs up. sorry so long winded just to say I agree but I thought I'd highlight the reason for this as I understand it. hopefully I didn't hose it all up.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2008 3:13:46 GMT
Excellent Ian, I hadn't really thought of this before, and yes you made perfect sense (to me at least). So there are (at least) two good reasons to do Ten Uchi 1) to facilitate proper cutting technique and 2) be able to keep a grip on your sword in a match (or battle). I really want to thank everyone who has contributed here, this discussion has really helpful ;D I think the idea of being able to rotate the wrists while in motion has helped a lot, and I also feel better control when I think a little more about using my right hand. I am still having problems with the more diagonal cuts. Ear to pelvis cuts (sorry, don't know the proper terms here) seem to be pretty consistent, but clavicle to pelvis cuts are very hit or miss, especially going from my right to left. I know, Practice, Practice Thanks again, Debbie
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2008 4:59:43 GMT
ear to pelvis?! Wow that would be a difficult cut to perform, I've never actually heard of a cut like that but then my swordsmanship comes from ninjitsu and that is pretty much "kill your opponent as fast as you can and leave the fancy cuts out of it." I find reverse pelvis to shoulder cuts the hardest to do consistently.
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