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Post by Timo Nieminen on Aug 30, 2016 23:27:58 GMT
My use of "disengage" is in the sense the term is commonly used in fencing: from a sword-against-sword position, where your opponent's sword stops you from immediately cutting/thrusting and hitting your opponent, you move your sword to the other side of their sword, where you can hit them. In foil/epee fencing, this is usually a small circular movement around their hilt (note that a long cross means that this has to be a large movement, to get around the cross), but can be over the top of their blade ("cut-over").
With the addition of grabbing/trapping, the disengage doesn't have to be to the other side; just away from their blade so you have freedom of movement.
It's often accompanied by an advance, because it's an attacking move.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2016 2:08:31 GMT
Understood, realized after posting you meant it in the specific terminology sense. If the kissaki does not reach all the way to the cross, disengaging below the opponent's blade will be a shorter motion. Depending on how curved your sword is, you will have to exaggerate to cut over the opponent's sword (so I think that's one feature that a longsword doesn't normally have to contend with, they should have roughly the same amount of distance to travel disengaging over or under when facing like weapons).
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Post by howler on Aug 31, 2016 2:22:23 GMT
Thank you very much for your explanations. The mentioned scene seemed to be more realistic for me than the endless hard parrying samurai-superkatana in other movies. Wearing a secondary weapon means you consider failure of the other weapon. I know many katana/tachi were battle weapons too and could deflect, but i thought it was tried to avoid this if possible more as a principle than in european longswording, which could give a little additional advantage to the difference in lenght, but not in sparring. But that are useless thoughts, such a duell is only possible in sparring. Couple of things. Shoto isn't just a backup, if you've surrendered your sword for example entering someone elses castle or something, your tanto or wakizashi is now your main arm. Also, it is a good option to fall to if in a close struggle or dispatching downed opponent, similar to how rondelle or miserichorde would be used. And yes, it can be used if your sword is broken, taken away, damaged, or perfectly intact but unavailible because it got wedged in to something and you dont have time to wrench it free. But this is katana v longsword not wakizashi or tanto so we are assuming open ground and all that. Just thought it might be interesting to you. You can chew up the shinogi all day long on both sides before getting in too much trouble. Its pretty unlikely to go for extended exchanges, you may get a couple swings in, but one or both would drop before too long. Its the difference between going until politely separating after a touch is made or a halt is requested, and going until being physically incapacitated. Most likely one person is sadly outmatched, or both close enough to get a "draw". Not impossible, but really doubtful. The damage can be controlled to some extent. You don't just bang swords together, you catch the opponent on a part that gives you better control or you stifle his attack so you aren't just whaling on each others blades like a three year old with toy trucks. Good points, and the reason for the Ko Katana under my bed, which is the main battlefield for ME (with the bedroom/hallway now being the battlefield). Specialized application. |
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Post by Dalaran1991 on Aug 31, 2016 8:20:31 GMT
Thank you very much for your explanations. The mentioned scene seemed to be more realistic for me than the endless hard parrying samurai-superkatana in other movies. Wearing a secondary weapon means you consider failure of the other weapon. I know many katana/tachi were battle weapons too and could deflect, but i thought it was tried to avoid this if possible more as a principle than in european longswording, which could give a little additional advantage to the difference in lenght, but not in sparring. But that are useless thoughts, such a duell is only possible in sparring. Couple of things. Shoto isn't just a backup, if you've surrendered your sword for example entering someone elses castle or something, your tanto or wakizashi is now your main arm. Also, it is a good option to fall to if in a close struggle or dispatching downed opponent, similar to how rondelle or miserichorde would be used. And yes, it can be used if your sword is broken, taken away, damaged, or perfectly intact but unavailible because it got wedged in to something and you dont have time to wrench it free. But this is katana v longsword not wakizashi or tanto so we are assuming open ground and all that. Just thought it might be interesting to you. You can chew up the shinogi all day long on both sides before getting in too much trouble. Its pretty unlikely to go for extended exchanges, you may get a couple swings in, but one or both would drop before too long. Its the difference between going until politely separating after a touch is made or a halt is requested, and going until being physically incapacitated. Most likely one person is sadly outmatched, or both close enough to get a "draw". Not impossible, but really doubtful. The damage can be controlled to some extent. You don't just bang swords together, you catch the opponent on a part that gives you better control or you stifle his attack so you aren't just whaling on each others blades like a three year old with toy trucks. Not having a secondary weapon just means you are stupid/unprepared/too poor to afford one. Literally every professional soldier carry a secondary weapon (the legionary is a special case with his pilum/gladius) The scene in 7 samurai is for pure effect since fighting among a sea of katana planted on the ground is cool. And oh dual sword! Musashi!!!! Other than that, what John said. If I were a samurai I would go to battle with a Yumi/naginata, a horse, a katana and a tanto, in that order. Tanto gets way underrated, I think Sengoku-Jidai samurai all carried them. Jujutsu training has a large part on using tanto, since falling off your horse apparently happened quite often and even a katana became unwieldy when your legs are maimed. Having said that, a katana does not break usually. Many accounts of katana breaking in battle were the low-grade issued to Ashigaru who prolly dont know how to use it anyway. A samurai would not bang his sword against other in any case, nor would he attempt ridiculous cut against armor. But if you insist, yes Katana can take quite a few beating as long as you dont let someone bang it repeatedly on the back curve. Robert: that's not a fair contest at all.... barring great weapon/pole arm/spear, nothing has a chance against hand weapon + shield (assuming equal skills). If the guy is also wearing armor, call it GG or pick up your Yumi ;-) |
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Aug 31, 2016 12:15:14 GMT
Thank you all, I stand corrected. Without doubt the easiest way for a katana to beat the longsword is to give me the longsword.  |
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Ifrit
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Post by Ifrit on Aug 31, 2016 19:11:22 GMT
Thank you all, I stand corrected. Without doubt the easiest way for a katana to beat the longsword is to give me the longsword. Essentially. A long sword is better equipped for melee combat against other melee weapons. |
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Post by howler on Aug 31, 2016 21:11:21 GMT
Thank you all, I stand corrected. Without doubt the easiest way for a katana to beat the longsword is to give me the longsword. Only in a general sense does the longsword have an advantage (versatility). If someone is comfortable and competent at katana (and had great interest in it), that person would be wise to stick with the katana, as ability of the wielder is of primary importance. I like longsword a bit more than katana, but a skilled katana person would turn me into a pile of sliced meat, as I don't really practice with either sword. Of course, you could be kidding, but really (and I think everyone agrees), skill level is huge. |
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Ifrit
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Post by Ifrit on Aug 31, 2016 21:24:09 GMT
Thank you all, I stand corrected. Without doubt the easiest way for a katana to beat the longsword is to give me the longsword. Only in a general sense does the longsword have an advantage (versatility). If someone is comfortable and competent at katana (and had great interest in it), that person would be wise to stick with the katana, as ability of the wielder is of primary importance. I like longsword a bit more than katana, but a skilled katana person would turn me into a pile of sliced meat, as I don't really practice with either sword. Of course, you could be kidding, but really (and I think everyone agrees), skill level is huge. I'm gonna have to agree. I prefer your comment to mine. Reminds me of when I first switched from katana to long sword, the cross guard of the long sword made many of my old techniques hard to replicate, such as flourishes. That's one thing I prefer about the katana. It's super comfortable to use and wear. Not just for wearing it, but also to walk around wearing it. The traditionall sash method of carry is just so much more manageable in everyday life than those complex hip harnesses that are used on longs words, typically. |
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Post by howler on Aug 31, 2016 21:55:31 GMT
Only in a general sense does the longsword have an advantage (versatility). If someone is comfortable and competent at katana (and had great interest in it), that person would be wise to stick with the katana, as ability of the wielder is of primary importance. I like longsword a bit more than katana, but a skilled katana person would turn me into a pile of sliced meat, as I don't really practice with either sword. Of course, you could be kidding, but really (and I think everyone agrees), skill level is huge. I'm gonna have to agree. I prefer your comment to mine. Reminds me of when I first switched from katana to long sword, the cross guard of the long sword made many of my old techniques hard to replicate, such as flourishes. That's one thing I prefer about the katana. It's super comfortable to use and wear. Not just for wearing it, but also to walk around wearing it. The traditionall sash method of carry is just so much more manageable in everyday life than those complex hip harnesses that are used on longs words, typically. Yup. Swords are side arms (like a handgun), meaning you carry them on a belt (or somewhere else on your person). Someone on the battlefield would have a sword on their belt, a knife on their person, and a pole arm (like a rife) in their hands. The movies really put some bad information into the publics head (think the movie Highlander...which I still like, btw, bang, bang, bang...sword on sword...eeek) about how katana and longsword were used (a LOOOOONG issue of discussion, probably fit for another thread). One thing is for sure, these subjects are FASCINATING (if your into sharp, pointy, smashy stuff). And everyone reading this is, of course.  |
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Post by Dalaran1991 on Sept 1, 2016 13:49:38 GMT
Yeah, it's definitely a question of skill and familiarity with the weapon.
Take two "katana vs longsword" videos here that I'm sure we are all famililar with:
The longswordman was less experienced and totally got sliced into sushi, and note how the katana wielder is much more aggressive but not reckless, he times his riposte well to get in and around the range. I'm also working on footwork and timing.
This one is more of an even match, though the longsword control the center and distance really well. The bokken guy did well in closing the distance and he did always aim (and got in 2) for lethal blows against the head, while the longswords got in some nice hands / writ slash. I think with better footwork the bokken guy would have the advantage, he uses frequently counter cut to batter away the longsword but couldnt take advantage of the opening.
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Post by howler on Sept 1, 2016 23:21:21 GMT
If evenly matched, the longsword should have an advantage. The "rub" is the "evenly matched" part.
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Sept 7, 2016 7:47:58 GMT
Throw pommels at him.
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Post by jammer on Sept 13, 2016 17:02:52 GMT
The old way of fighting against a lance or Yari, if armed with a daisho, or a sword and dagger, was to throw the short sword,or dagger, at tbe chest and follow up with the sword very quickly. I would try this against a two-handed euro longsword.
Another technique, mentioned historically, was to cross the two sword, or sword and dagger, somehow, as part of a way of killing an adversary with a longer weapon. But the techniques are now only the words describing them, afaik.
jittejutsu is a special case of a much shorter weapon being an advantage against a much longer weapon, but that is against a cutting weapon such as a katana, and I see a longsword being more spear like in its use. Hence the counter Yari technique I mentioned first.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Sept 13, 2016 18:33:47 GMT
Another technique, mentioned historically, was to cross the two sword, or sword and dagger, somehow, as part of a way of killing an adversary with a longer weapon. But the techniques are now only the words describing them, afaik. It survives in Chinese two-weapon forms. The technique is present in Japanese two-sword forms, but in the cases I know of (Katori Shinto-ryu), the opposing weapon is a katana rather than a long weapon. (However, katana + <foo> vs longsword isn't quite the OP's katana vs longsword.) |
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Post by jammer on Sept 15, 2016 18:31:18 GMT
Another technique, mentioned historically, was to cross the two sword, or sword and dagger, somehow, as part of a way of killing an adversary with a longer weapon. But the techniques are now only the words describing them, afaik. It survives in Chinese two-weapon forms. The technique is present in Japanese two-sword forms, but in the cases I know of (Katori Shinto-ryu), the opposing weapon is a katana rather than a long weapon. (However, katana + <foo> vs longsword isn't quite the OP's katana vs longsword.) Its a common technique, "juji dome". I was not referring to that technique. There are records of a technique of the same, or similar enough, name, being used against a pike, successfully. Not least by musashi against pike man from the hoizen, and bojutsuka from the precedents to smr jodo. I favour a viewpoint that the technique against a polearm is different than against a katana, and due to the sword cult of edo japan, lost to history. |
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Sept 15, 2016 20:58:01 GMT
I favour a viewpoint that the technique against a polearm is different than against a katana, and due to the sword cult of edo japan, lost to history. Against a spear, you are usually deflecting an incoming thrust. Other than that, what's the difference? After you have blocked a cut, parried a thrust, or actively trapped your opponent's weapon, the function of the technique is the same: to inhibit your opponent from disengaging, while making it easy for you to disengage and hit them. As already said, it's preserved in Chinese forms as an anti-spear technique (Chinese forms are great sources of anti-spear techniques), so I wouldn't call it a lost technique. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2016 22:12:36 GMT
Pretty much agreeing, you either move the attack off your line or move yourself off the weapons line.
The thing seems to be that sword vs x isnt really that much more inteesting than sword vs sword. There's nuance like how a wobbly spear can decieve line or something on a chain or rope can flex around and hit assumedly closed off target, but this stuff doesnt really matter until you've got your fundamentals locked down.
I think the best starting point is learning how to overcome your own weapon. It doesnt sound like longsword guy is changing his approach because he is addressing a mysterious weapon, he's doing the same stuff he would do against another longsword. This is a sign that the kenjutsu needs work. A false edge, a longer reach, and a crossguard should not be that disruptive.
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Post by Dalaran1991 on Sept 16, 2016 16:00:18 GMT
Pretty much agreeing, you either move the attack off your line or move yourself off the weapons line. The thing seems to be that sword vs x isnt really that much more inteesting than sword vs sword. There's nuance like how a wobbly spear can decieve line or something on a chain or rope can flex around and hit assumedly closed off target, but this stuff doesnt really matter until you've got your fundamentals locked down. I think the best starting point is learning how to overcome your own weapon. It doesnt sound like longsword guy is changing his approach because he is addressing a mysterious weapon, he's doing the same stuff he would do against another longsword. This is a sign that the kenjutsu needs work. A false edge, a longer reach, and a crossguard should not be that disruptive. I beg to differ. In my case, overcoming the longsword's range to get into the katana's striking range is certainly doable, but it takes great footwork and timing. Though I do find that once I got inside his guard but not close enough for a bind I do manage to land a clean cut. When he lent me his spare longsword it was a very even match. No bind involve since I didnt have to get too close, I generally kept my distance. A longsword is NOT a spear and I dont think it can be treated in the same way. 1) A spear user is very vulnerable once you get inside his guard. 2) With a spear, your hands are not protected. We switched a bit last Sunday, he used my Jo staff and I used my katana, I got the upper hand slightly mainly because he kept forgetting that he dont have a crossguard, and because: 3) A spear/staff can be grabbed. In aikido and jujutsu we practice Jodori, aka grabbing the spear. Only doable when he is over extended though. You can not grab 2/3 of a longsword |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2016 17:21:37 GMT
oh sure you can
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Sept 16, 2016 20:09:11 GMT
A false edge, a longer reach, and a crossguard should not be that disruptive. I beg to differ. In my case, overcoming the longsword's range to get into the katana's striking range is certainly doable, but it takes great footwork and timing. I agree. The reach difference is very large, and if longsword knows what to do with that extra reach, it is difficult. A longsword is NOT a spear and I dont think it can be treated in the same way. [...] 1) A spear user is very vulnerable once you get inside his guard. Isn't that the same as your experience against longsword? "Though I do find that once I got inside his guard but not close enough for a bind I do manage to land a clean cut." 2) With a spear, your hands are not protected. We switched a bit last Sunday, he used my Jo staff and I used my katana, I got the upper hand slightly mainly because he kept forgetting that he dont have a crossguard, With a spear instead of a jo, your hands are protected by the extra 3' of reach. The hands aren't very protected with a longsword with a simple cross. Protected against a blade sliding down the blade, but against little else. If his hands are too exposed using a jo, they might be too exposed using a longsword. Might be something you can take advantage of. |
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