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Post by howler on Sept 16, 2016 22:00:43 GMT
Pretty much agreeing, you either move the attack off your line or move yourself off the weapons line. The thing seems to be that sword vs x isnt really that much more inteesting than sword vs sword. There's nuance like how a wobbly spear can decieve line or something on a chain or rope can flex around and hit assumedly closed off target, but this stuff doesnt really matter until you've got your fundamentals locked down. I think the best starting point is learning how to overcome your own weapon. It doesnt sound like longsword guy is changing his approach because he is addressing a mysterious weapon, he's doing the same stuff he would do against another longsword. This is a sign that the kenjutsu needs work. A false edge, a longer reach, and a crossguard should not be that disruptive. I beg to differ. In my case, overcoming the longsword's range to get into the katana's striking range is certainly doable, but it takes great footwork and timing. Though I do find that once I got inside his guard but not close enough for a bind I do manage to land a clean cut. When he lent me his spare longsword it was a very even match. No bind involve since I didnt have to get too close, I generally kept my distance. A longsword is NOT a spear and I dont think it can be treated in the same way. 1) A spear user is very vulnerable once you get inside his guard. 2) With a spear, your hands are not protected. We switched a bit last Sunday, he used my Jo staff and I used my katana, I got the upper hand slightly mainly because he kept forgetting that he dont have a crossguard, and because: 3) A spear/staff can be grabbed. In aikido and jujutsu we practice Jodori, aka grabbing the spear. Only doable when he is over extended though. You can not grab 2/3 of a longsword While (I believe) all are in agreement with you that overcoming longsword or spear is "doable" (partly due to some of the reasons you gave), the general advantage of longsword/spear over Katana (for reasons given in thread) is clear. All polearms (main battlefield weapon...like the rifle) beat swords (side arms...like the handgun). The reach (25% longer though roughly 1/4lb heavier), double edge (doubling attack angles), guard, versatility (made for blade on blade binding/grappling attack), balance, all favor longsword over katana (a mainly ceremonial, forward weighted, dueling weapon...think old west gun fighter-fight over in less than 5 seconds...designed to cut flesh). Context is everything, which is why I have a Chenese specialized cutter Ko Katana under my bed (41oz, 21"bld. regular sized handle).
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AndiTheBarvarian
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"Lord of the Memes"
Bavarianbarbarian - Semper Semprini
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Sept 16, 2016 22:33:36 GMT
(drink)
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Post by howler on Sept 17, 2016 6:21:04 GMT
Putting down longsword and katana now...just a second (popping beer top...a 7.1% from Scuttlebutt, a golden mariner pale ale)...gulp, gulp, gulp...better get over to the beer thread now...burp.
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Ifrit
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More edgy than a double edge sword
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Post by Ifrit on Sept 17, 2016 17:42:49 GMT
I beg to differ. In my case, overcoming the longsword's range to get into the katana's striking range is certainly doable, but it takes great footwork and timing. Though I do find that once I got inside his guard but not close enough for a bind I do manage to land a clean cut. When he lent me his spare longsword it was a very even match. No bind involve since I didnt have to get too close, I generally kept my distance. A longsword is NOT a spear and I dont think it can be treated in the same way. 1) A spear user is very vulnerable once you get inside his guard. 2) With a spear, your hands are not protected. We switched a bit last Sunday, he used my Jo staff and I used my katana, I got the upper hand slightly mainly because he kept forgetting that he dont have a crossguard, and because: 3) A spear/staff can be grabbed. In aikido and jujutsu we practice Jodori, aka grabbing the spear. Only doable when he is over extended though. You can not grab 2/3 of a longsword While (I believe) all are in agreement with you that overcoming longsword or spear is "doable" (partly due to some of the reasons you gave), the general advantage of longsword/spear over Katana (for reasons given in thread) is clear. All polearms (main battlefield weapon...like the rifle) beat swords (side arms...like the handgun). The reach (25% longer though roughly 1/4lb heavier), double edge (doubling attack angles), guard, versatility (made for blade on blade binding/grappling attack), balance, all favor longsword over katana (a mainly ceremonial, forward weighted, dueling weapon...think old west gun fighter-fight over in less than 5 seconds...designed to cut flesh). Context is everything, which is why I have a Chenese specialized cutter Ko Katana under my bed (41oz, 21"bld. regular sized handle). Excellent points. I entirely agree. The katana is very specialized. I imagine wrenching a katana from someone's hands would actually be more risky than doing the same with a longsword, as a katana is typically sharpened more and doesn't have as many leverage points. A cross guard can provide leverage for an enemy to wrench it out of your hands. A tsuba? Not so much
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Post by jammer on Sept 17, 2016 19:16:03 GMT
I am hypothesising here, but as it is common for users of long stabby weapons, such as spears and longswords, to have techniques for quickly reducing the range, specifically because an opponent getting inside the point is an obvious counter attack. I do not believe that the techniques for defeating them were so simple as to just deflect the weapon and then kill at will.
The techniques must have been significantly more sophisticated than that.
Edit, just to make sure im on track here, Longswords, are those massive two handed things, we're not talking about hand and a half swords here?
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Post by howler on Sept 17, 2016 20:46:45 GMT
I am hypothesising here, but as it is common for users of long stabby weapons, such as spears and longswords, to have techniques for quickly reducing the range, specifically because an opponent getting inside the point is an obvious counter attack. I do not believe that the techniques for defeating them were so simple as to just deflect the weapon and then kill at will. The techniques must have been significantly more sophisticated than that. Edit, just to make sure im on track here, Longswords, are those massive two handed things, we're not talking about hand and a half swords here? The massive two handed swords were Great Swords, not long swords, and were used mainly on the battlefield as a kind of polearm. The bastard, hand and a half, and slightly longer handled variety were all longswords, which were only a few ounces heavier (and 25% longer) than katana, but had a closer POB. It is blade on blade (binding) that gives the longsword (along with the many other reasons...reach, guard, double edge) inherent versatile superiority to the katana. Again, user ability still trumps all, as a skilled katana wielder would turn a bum like me (holding a longsword) into a pile of dead meat. It is better to use something that you really like (and so, would become good at), than something which may offer more general versatility, but your not interested in, so don't practice at and become skillful.
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Post by howler on Sept 17, 2016 20:54:37 GMT
While (I believe) all are in agreement with you that overcoming longsword or spear is "doable" (partly due to some of the reasons you gave), the general advantage of longsword/spear over Katana (for reasons given in thread) is clear. All polearms (main battlefield weapon...like the rifle) beat swords (side arms...like the handgun). The reach (25% longer though roughly 1/4lb heavier), double edge (doubling attack angles), guard, versatility (made for blade on blade binding/grappling attack), balance, all favor longsword over katana (a mainly ceremonial, forward weighted, dueling weapon...think old west gun fighter-fight over in less than 5 seconds...designed to cut flesh). Context is everything, which is why I have a Chenese specialized cutter Ko Katana under my bed (41oz, 21"bld. regular sized handle). Excellent points. I entirely agree. The katana is very specialized. I imagine wrenching a katana from someone's hands would actually be more risky than doing the same with a longsword, as a katana is typically sharpened more and doesn't have as many leverage points. A cross guard can provide leverage for an enemy to wrench it out of your hands. A tsuba? Not so much Attempting to wrench a katana from the wielders hands would be an awful (and bloody) sight. I guess you would have to try to keep your hands on the back of the sword (or maybe flats) and/or handle, while trying to stay away from the edge and point. Grabbing the handles of either sword would turn it into a wrestling match, giving you a close to equal chance with the sword wielder. Trick is...getting close enough to even get the chance to grab that handle.
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Ifrit
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More edgy than a double edge sword
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Post by Ifrit on Sept 17, 2016 22:01:03 GMT
I dunno if I'll say a long sword is superior. It's all applications. When it comes to sparring in HEMA? Naturally the long sword shines. It's what it's made for.
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Ifrit
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Post by Ifrit on Sept 17, 2016 22:07:19 GMT
Also, that's the thing. With a longsword, sometimes the strong of the blade is left less sharp, so there is a lot less risk in grabbing it. With a katana, the entire blade is like a razor, almost. It would be way too risky. There is no risk in sparring, but sparring isn't much the same as a real sword fight.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2016 23:12:45 GMT
Excellent points. I entirely agree. The katana is very specialized. I imagine wrenching a katana from someone's hands would actually be more risky than doing the same with a longsword, as a katana is typically sharpened more and doesn't have as many leverage points. A cross guard can provide leverage for an enemy to wrench it out of your hands. A tsuba? Not so much Attempting to wrench a katana from the wielders hands would be an awful (and bloody) sight. I guess you would have to try to keep your hands on the back of the sword (or maybe flats) and/or handle, while trying to stay away from the edge and point. Grabbing the handles of either sword would turn it into a wrestling match, giving you a close to equal chance with the sword wielder. Trick is...getting close enough to even get the chance to grab that handle. The sword-taking I have been taught and done is 99% concerned with controlling the handle (after, of course you've gotten out of the way!). Touching the blade is not really necessary, there's some where you do use the back of the blade, but it's more of a follow through after breaking his control. Application-wise, taking the sword is nice and all but the over all goal isn't to take his sword out of his hands, it is to win. If he's obsessed with keeping a grip on his sword and not letting you take it, then he's not protecting his face so BAM. It's kind of the same thing with just about any other technique - if you're dealing with a clown who thinks that stopping you from doing your technique means that he wins, then it's practically a given that he's handing you all kinds of cool stuff. The fun part of the 'wrestling' is a lot of people put themselves in really awful positions after delivering their attacks. They get so caught up in CUT that they don't really understand how to recover (there's a little more to it than just snapping to a guard or kamae!) and may as well give you their center with a bow on it presented on a silver plate. I put the single quote there because there's a difference between skilled wrestling / ringen / jiujutsu and white knuckled flailing / struggling so there wouldn't be confusion about looking down on wrestling or something. Just thought it was worth sharing since it's a different mentality to what might come to mind when thinking about "wrenching" a sword out of someone's hands. You are not talking about a massive distance - even if you assume three entire feet between the crossguard and the tip of the sword, you're only talking three feet. That's a distance anybody in moderate health can cover in the blink of an eye. The difficult part isn't closing distance, the hard part is keeping your cool when someone is swinging at you so you can respond properly. If you can sort out whether you walk forward to the right or forward to the left, that distance isn't nearly as big of a deal as you think. Anything he throws your way HAS to be from the right to the left, from the left to the right, or down the middle. If you don't freeze up and respond in time you've got a two out of three shot of being right. Then you are in position to do something to him. That's a controversial thing and can easily pull this way into a tangent though. --- With manipulating distance, you get yourself into a more advantageous position ready to work. The other guy has to be at a disadvantage - if he was prepared for the close distance then he wouldn't be threatening at medium to long, he'd be waiting for you in half sword or have his dagger out or something appropriate for hugging range. It's literally changing the rules mid-game on him, by the time he figures it out he should already be defeated.
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Post by Dalaran1991 on Sept 17, 2016 23:57:35 GMT
I dont understand, how can you just grab a sword like that without your fingers in the sushi pile? Are they assuming they are using armored gloves? Being armored fully changes everything
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2016 1:01:46 GMT
It doesn't seem like it should work, but it does. I actually just *~-=CAREFULLY=-~* grabbed my ww2 gunto by the blade with just a standard grip like you'd hold a hammer and lifted it off the ground, it works. If you or anybody else does something like this at home I'm not responsible!
What you don't want is someone giving it a hard push or pull while you're holding it, unless you go along with it. Tight hand, loose arm means you've got some travel before it cuts into you. Tight arm loose hand means stitches ;-)
The feeling of the edge pressing onto skin is pretty unnerving - I'm sure with acclimation you can get used to it.
So with that, IF the other person's blade is not in motion, you can grab it. Whether it's because they are hanging out in a guard, they finished a cut, or you managed to get a hard stop due to something like a block, you've got a moment where you can grab.
If you've partially grabbed and they start pushing or pulling, get ready for fillet of hand and finger sandwiches.
I'm going to state again that I don't like this, to my knowledge there isn't anything quite like it in the system I study, and it feels reckless. I can see where it could work and I know that people have filmed themselves clubbing away at a tire pell like it was a baby seal. I just wanted to test it. It is possible. Whether it's something you want to do or think is a good idea is your business.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Sept 18, 2016 1:42:54 GMT
So with that, IF the other person's blade is not in motion, you can grab it. Whether it's because they are hanging out in a guard, they finished a cut, or you managed to get a hard stop due to something like a block, you've got a moment where you can grab. Grabbing is the easy part - as you note, it's holding on that will make you lose fingers. But you don't need to hang on, or try to pull the blade from their fingers. Just immobilise it for long enough to hit them. Less than a second. It can be easier to hold onto a grabbed katana for longer, compared to a longsword - grab it over the spine, holding the sides, without putting your fingers over the edge. Duelling gloves with armoured palms (usually fine mail) will make a big difference. Then you can grab and hold, and hit your opponent over and over again while you keep their sword out of action.
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Post by howler on Sept 18, 2016 2:11:11 GMT
I dunno if I'll say a long sword is superior. It's all applications. When it comes to sparring in HEMA? Naturally the long sword shines. It's what it's made for. In specific application, the katana "can be" better, like (Ko Katana) under my bed (walls, ceiling, furniture, etc...). On open ground, Longsword in all realms (Generally, of course). Whether sniping from distance (25% longer but barely heavier, and closer POB), or grappling (blade on blade/binding). Katana was designed for a quick strike flesh cutting ceremonial duel (think gun slinger). That longsword double edge DOUBLES your attack angles. On paper, these physical attributes MUST be an advantage. The Katana can cut better...but a completely decapitated man is just as dead as one where you chopped his neck beyond the spine. There are some YouTube videos showing binding attacks where a simple twist (after blade contact) simply skewers the opponent (kind of like a short spear).
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Post by jammer on Sept 19, 2016 19:02:00 GMT
I am hypothesising here, but as it is common for users of long stabby weapons, such as spears and longswords, to have techniques for quickly reducing the range, specifically because an opponent getting inside the point is an obvious counter attack. I do not believe that the techniques for defeating them were so simple as to just deflect the weapon and then kill at will. The techniques must have been significantly more sophisticated than that. Edit, just to make sure im on track here, Longswords, are those massive two handed things, we're not talking about hand and a half swords here? The massive two handed swords were Great Swords, not long swords, and were used mainly on the battlefield as a kind of polearm. The bastard, hand and a half, and slightly longer handled variety were all longswords, which were only a few ounces heavier (and 25% longer) than katana, but had a closer POB. It is blade on blade (binding) that gives the longsword (along with the many other reasons...reach, guard, double edge) inherent versatile superiority to the katana. Again, user ability still trumps all, as a skilled katana wielder would turn a bum like me (holding a longsword) into a pile of dead meat. It is better to use something that you really like (and so, would become good at), than something which may offer more general versatility, but your not interested in, so don't practice at and become skillful. Thanks for that, I would discard any advice I posted earlier. I was basing it on the battlefield weapon a "great sword", likening it to a polearm, like a spear, clearly the techniques and considerations i mentioned are not applicable if both adversaries are naturally within one stride of each other.
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Post by howler on Sept 20, 2016 2:50:43 GMT
The massive two handed swords were Great Swords, not long swords, and were used mainly on the battlefield as a kind of polearm. The bastard, hand and a half, and slightly longer handled variety were all longswords, which were only a few ounces heavier (and 25% longer) than katana, but had a closer POB. It is blade on blade (binding) that gives the longsword (along with the many other reasons...reach, guard, double edge) inherent versatile superiority to the katana. Again, user ability still trumps all, as a skilled katana wielder would turn a bum like me (holding a longsword) into a pile of dead meat. It is better to use something that you really like (and so, would become good at), than something which may offer more general versatility, but your not interested in, so don't practice at and become skillful. Thanks for that, I would discard any advice I posted earlier. I was basing it on the battlefield weapon a "great sword", likening it to a polearm, like a spear, clearly the techniques and considerations i mentioned are not applicable if both adversaries are naturally within one stride of each other. Still, I would not like to tangle with one of those "great sword" wielders, as they were highly trained and competent with the weapon (they were indeed paid double wages, in fact). You (probably a very powerful man) get that thing going in constant motion to cut pikes, spear, men and horses with that heavy blade. One on one, on even and open ground, you still have to time your attack well in order to get to him before he sweeps you like a scythe cuts wheat.
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Post by Dalaran1991 on Oct 2, 2016 20:23:29 GMT
I sparred with a flamberge wielder one and easily understand why they were paid double. That thing has every advantage of a polearm with almost none of the disadvantage (aside from its shorter length and its weight maybe, but greatswords were not that much heavier than a bastard sword, and better balanced than a polearm)
Due to the sword able to cut with 2/3 of its total length if you want to step inside its guard you have to cover a lot more ground than you do with a polearm. And due to it being a sword with a long cutting blade its danger zone is much more pronounced than a polearm. Parrying against a greatsword must be done very well or the jarring force of the swing can easily numb your arm. He was using a polypreine sword and still I can feel the blow through the gambeson.
And its not easy to do feints either. A greatsword can be very nimble and control the pace of the engagement. The myth of the heavy unwieldy greatsword is stupid.
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Post by howler on Oct 2, 2016 21:55:54 GMT
I sparred with a flamberge wielder one and easily understand why they were paid double. That thing has every advantage of a polearm with almost none of the disadvantage (aside from its shorter length and its weight maybe, but greatswords were not that much heavier than a bastard sword, and better balanced than a polearm) Due to the sword able to cut with 2/3 of its total length if you want to step inside its guard you have to cover a lot more ground than you do with a polearm. And due to it being a sword with a long cutting blade its danger zone is much more pronounced than a polearm. Parrying against a greatsword must be done very well or the jarring force of the swing can easily numb your arm. He was using a polypreine sword and still I can feel the blow through the gambeson. And its not easy to do feints either. A greatsword can be very nimble and control the pace of the engagement. The myth of the heavy unwieldy greatsword is stupid. A polearm, with its extra 2-3ft. of reach advantage (another animal, really), ability to grab (manipulate) most of its length, and lighter weight, make it an infinitely better weapon individually or on the battlefield. Remember, you can simply choke up, step back (or both) with polearms, so the "danger zone" remains constant. The "myth" came from comparing longswords (which, more or less, WERE bastard, hand and a half) with great swords. Great swords were much heavier than long swords (from a third heavier to twice the weight), as you could easily wield a long sword (2 3/4 to 3lbs.) with one hand. Great swords were niche weapons, almost exclusively used on the battlefield against pike, spear, polearm, GROUP formations, not individually. An equally experienced longsword wielder would be at a significant advantage, one on one, against a great sword wielder...and an equally experienced polearm wielder would simply destroy, as there is a reason polearm was king of the battlefield for thousands of years. Still, nobody would want to run up on a great sword while it is in battlefield (constant figure eight) motion.
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Post by Derzis on Oct 3, 2016 0:17:51 GMT
Are you talking Katana vs Long Sword used the way it used in this video?
Sorry, katana loses unless the katana fighter is educated in long sword fighting style. You want to win against the Long Sword? Get yourself an O-katana first. Or fight him with a wooden daisho on you, since katana in 99% of cases was part of a pair. This will change the outcome
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Post by howler on Oct 3, 2016 1:04:33 GMT
Are you talking Katana vs Long Sword used the way it used in this video? Sorry, katana loses unless the katana fighter is educated in long sword fighting style. You want to win against the Long Sword? Get yourself an O-katana first. Yeah, they are mainly just swinging and banging away for the audience. In reality, you would get in the bind, then twist and thrust your tip into your adversary, ala short spear. I'm not sure I would go with the longer O-katana (with its longer blade) as that forward (and overall) weight would get more pronounced (however, I'm by no means an expert in...well...anything, let alone O-katana, so there's that) . This thread has pretty much explained the general advantages (overall nod to the versatile longsword) and disadvantages of these two fantastic SIDEARMS (have to again emphasis this, as polearms were the main battlefield weapon).
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