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Post by Dalaran1991 on Aug 21, 2016 18:01:47 GMT
Hello gentlement. Sorry if I'm beating a dead horse but I couldnt find anything close with a search. Please, I have no intention of getting into the "which is better" discussion, I'm asking for techniques tips.
Im a kenjutsuka and Im hanging out with some folks doing european medieval fencing.
A guy I usually fence with use a longsword/bastard sword rather well. I'm having trouble negating his range advantage + the crossguard.
The longer reach gives an obvious advantage when it comes to thrusting.
I find that when I do manage to get close he often manages to use the longsword guard to lock my blade and follow up with quick nicks.
The most basic entrance I usually do, like in this one here around 2:22, is about the only thing that works but again the crossguard make it much harder.
Any kenjutsu/kendoka has advice on this?
Thanks,
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2016 20:08:40 GMT
I spend most of my time studying kenjutsu and have had a small exposure to longsword. I have not crossed chocolate and peanut butter so to speak. Offered for what it may be worth. As everyone and their dog knows, a given longsword is longer than a given katana. He still needs to reach you in order to attack you, whether that is a stab or a strike. There is a place where you are out of his range, and a place where you are within his range. If you remain there, he can hit you but you can't reach him, right? But you can reach his sword. The simplest approach would be to catch his sword with yours when he strikes. Keep his sword checked with your own, enter and counter attack. Remember your entire sword is a weapon and not to be preoccupied with putting the edge or the point on him. The monouchi is great, it is awesome and lovely, but it isn't the only part of your sword that you can use. You can strike with the rim of the tsuba, the handle of your sword, and don't forget you still have your hands and elbows. Obviously he's your friend and all so try not to break him up. Think about how you would use your sword against a longer weapon like a jo staff, a naginata, or a spear. If you don't know, that's ok. It isn't an exact match, but jo looks like the closest approximation. Look up what you can find, and see what you can use from it. You can probably find poor to ok looking video of people playing with katana vs longsword, but with a little looking you can find *excellent* jo material. Use it to your advantage. The cross guard isn't as much of a problem as you think. If you are getting caught on it that should mean you've already worked out the reach problem which is good news, now you've got a different problem to solve. People get caught up in the moment, and when they get stuck they think they are trapped. Simplest thing is let go of your own weapon with one hand, grab and control his, and attack. Pay particular attention to how he is making you feel locked. It is not so much a question of one sword versus another, it is more a matter of superior structure / posture and directions of force. There isn't really better or worse, there is just understanding yourself and your weapon and what you can do with them. This is good to think about and practice on both sides of the equation. Good luck! edit: added photo of jo next to waster. New Stirling Arms German Longsword Overall length 52-1/2" Hilt length 14-1/2" Blade length 38" E-Bogu jo Size: 1 in (2.5CM) Diameter x 50 in (1.27 m) Length 2.5 inch difference in published spec. Negligible. Attachments:
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Aug 21, 2016 21:00:47 GMT
Jon has said it well. I think 3 points can be emphasised: The simplest approach would be to catch his sword with yours when he strikes. Keep his sword checked with your own, enter and counter attack. [...] But you can reach his sword. This "wait for longsword to attack" strategy is to get them doing something predictable, to get them committed to something other than hitting you while backing off when you are trying to close. Their attack means their sword is doing something, and they are moving forwards. If you just try to close, without waiting for them to attack, you must try to engage their sword ASAP. You can try for this even before you commit to moving in. don't forget you still have your hands and elbows. [...] Simplest thing is let go of your own weapon with one hand, grab and control his, and attack. Grab their blade, or their hilt. Or their cross - a long cross can be a nice lever to control their weapon. You don't have to hold it for long - 1 second is plenty. Think about how you would use your sword against a longer weapon like a jo staff, a naginata, or a spear. If you don't know, that's ok. It isn't an exact match, but jo looks like the closest approximation. Look up what you can find, and see what you can use from it. The above methods are pretty normal things to try against long weapons. If you have learned kata against long weapons, think if any of it is applicable against a longsword. Otherwise, you can look at kodachi vs odachi (wakizashi vs katana) kata. Swap weapons with your sparring partner. Or try spear or naginata against their longsword. See what they do. If it works, try the same thing against them when you go back to your original weapons. If you find the cross a problem other than in the bind (where freeing one hand and grabbing their weapon/arm can work well, or freeing one arm and takedown/throw), it shouldn't be a fundamental problem. Just something that more practice can solve. If, as some HEMA groups are, they are obsessed with getting into the bind, they might give you a free hit. If they don't threaten you as they close seeking to bind, they're not threatening you. So hit them. If they don't hit hands (but are, in principle, happy to do so), you might be able to get into range of their hands, and hit. I like upwards from below, which is classic Chinese swordsmanship. Easier with a back edge, but can work with the front edge. This isn't a long-term solution, since your opponent will learn to protect his hands (which is useful education for him if his hand defence isn't good enough yet). |
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Post by Croccifixio on Aug 21, 2016 22:48:24 GMT
In my experience sparring with shorter weapons vs longer ones, footwork matters a great deal. The only time I've convincingly beaten an attack from a competent foe with a long weapon is with anticipated sidesteps into counterattacks. This of course presupposes my opponent missed, which was fewer times than I'd have liked.
Also, if permitted within your style, you could extend your reach by gripping with one hand.
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Aug 21, 2016 23:50:54 GMT
In my experience sparring with shorter weapons vs longer ones, footwork matters a great deal. I'll second this. Back in the day when a friend and I were able to spar somewhat regularly, I would occasionally experiment with dual shoto against his longer bokken and found the only way I could negate the reach difference (especially as I was about 5'7" and he was near 6' back then) was thorough use of footwork; I was only ever able to get a hit in when I remembered to keep moving. |
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Post by Dalaran1991 on Aug 22, 2016 10:01:25 GMT
Thank you gentlemen. I do need to work on my footwork and distance then.
It always end up in a bind ==> wrestling which I dont really like. If I wanted to do jujutsu with weapons then I would go to jujutsu dojo :D
Regarding bokken vs longer weapon, I do know about bokken vs naginata. Against the naginata always hit their arms/hands while trying to get close. A bit harder to do with the cross guards since the blade can not slide down the length. Though to be honest I would rather face a longsword than a naginata, that thing is deadly;
I've heard people mention using the superior speed of the katana, since it's shorter thus quicker, but I have trouble with that. It's not like you can come at him with a flurry of blows.
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Post by Cosmoline on Aug 22, 2016 17:37:25 GMT
I would not recommend trying to win by getting into a medium or close bind. Most German longsword classes focus a great deal on binding/winding drills. The two edges and crossguard give considerable advantages to the longsword and the system teaches to flow right into wrestling using pommel bashes and half swording--something I don't believe is really covered much in the JSA.
OTOH most longsword classes are weak on footwork (though it's getting better). This is simply because the texts don't have much to say about the matter and what they do say is open to interpretation. So instead of trying to engage directly, clear a path along the side and go for the flanks, legs, arms, etc. Play the angles. This is actually explored to some extent in Falkner's longsword, where he will work his way over to a flank and carve the opponent up from the side. Falkner unwinds the wind as we say. And there are some plates in Wallerstein that also show what may be ways of avoiding the winden battle.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2016 20:16:10 GMT
That really depends on the JSA. Any comprehensive system with a jiujitsu component should be more than adequate for arming a student when things get really up close and personal. The hard part will be doing it safely. I'd be seriously concerned applying a number of locks or throws on someone in a friendly setting without knowing they can handle it. But since we don't know what he studies and he says he doesn't want to do it anyway it's probably moot.
Work on being able to percieve what attack is coming at you, and how to tell the difference between a true attack and a feint. Then you can position yourself where you need to be and void his blow while delivering your own.
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Post by howler on Aug 23, 2016 6:38:27 GMT
Thank you gentlemen. I do need to work on my footwork and distance then. It always end up in a bind ==> wrestling which I dont really like. If I wanted to do jujutsu with weapons then I would go to jujutsu dojo  Regarding bokken vs longer weapon, I do know about bokken vs naginata. Against the naginata always hit their arms/hands while trying to get close. A bit harder to do with the cross guards since the blade can not slide down the length. Though to be honest I would rather face a longsword than a naginata, that thing is deadly; I've heard people mention using the superior speed of the katana, since it's shorter thus quicker, but I have trouble with that. It's not like you can come at him with a flurry of blows. Naginata is a polearm (main battle implement...like a rifle), so it will be superior (generally speaking, of course) to a sword (sidearm...like a handgun). The people who said the katana was faster than the longsword were wrong. A four foot thing (longsword) with a POB closer to the handle (yet weighing only a few ounces more) MUST be faster near the tip than a three foot thing that is more blade heavy. As the great Ron Burgundy exclaimed..."its math". Not to mention, because the longsword is double edged, you double the angles of attack and speed. |
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Aug 23, 2016 7:58:36 GMT
The people who said the katana was faster than the longsword were wrong. A four foot thing (longsword) with a POB closer to the handle (yet weighing only a few ounces more) MUST be faster near the tip than a three foot thing that is more blade heavy. As the great Ron Burgundy exclaimed..."its math". Not to mention, because the longsword is double edged, you double the angles of attack and speed. The speed that the tip moves at during a cut isn't the relevant thing. The important thing is how long it takes to cut, or to thrust. The time needed to cut depends on the moment of inertia, and this will almost always be quite a lot lower for the katana. The time needed to thrust depends on the mass, and this is also almost always quite a lot lower for the katana (even a modern replica katana, much heavier than the average antique, will usually be about 10oz or more lighter than a typical longsword). So why shouldn't a katana be faster, in the ways that matter? But you need to be in range to use that speed, so back to the original problem. |
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Post by Croccifixio on Aug 23, 2016 8:26:28 GMT
One possibility you could explore is an angled block wherein you move diagonally forward on either side, but with your blade positioned at the opposite side (rear foot) angled in such a way as to deflect a coming blow off behind you (basically the blade tip is pointing to your back at the same angle your rear leg will be). When your blades come into contact, immediately cross your hands over your head (use your hips, waist, and shoulder for power) and deliver a simple cut towards your opponent's temple.
The action of crossing your hands over the head should also dislodge his sword enough to give you a speed and position advantage for your cut. The problem with this move is that the entire thing is difficult to execute (your head will also have to move under your arms as your entire body pivots for the cut) and you will have to anticipate his attack. This will not work as well against thrusts.
I did a similar drill two weeks ago in FMA called "Sumbrada" (an upward oblique umbrella block) which you can look up in youtube for reference.
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Post by howler on Aug 23, 2016 9:16:38 GMT
The people who said the katana was faster than the longsword were wrong. A four foot thing (longsword) with a POB closer to the handle (yet weighing only a few ounces more) MUST be faster near the tip than a three foot thing that is more blade heavy. As the great Ron Burgundy exclaimed..."its math". Not to mention, because the longsword is double edged, you double the angles of attack and speed. The speed that the tip moves at during a cut isn't the relevant thing. The important thing is how long it takes to cut, or to thrust. The time needed to cut depends on the moment of inertia, and this will almost always be quite a lot lower for the katana. The time needed to thrust depends on the mass, and this is also almost always quite a lot lower for the katana (even a modern replica katana, much heavier than the average antique, will usually be about 10oz or more lighter than a typical longsword). So why shouldn't a katana be faster, in the ways that matter? But you need to be in range to use that speed, so back to the original problem. The Katana will certainly be a better cutter, though the longsword does not need to be. You don't have to cut an arm off or anything, so the tip is sufficient in taking someone out in a fight, better thrust and sufficient raking action, and tip is much faster because of the shorter POB and 3' compared to 4' thing (while only being 4oz. heavier). Double edge increases speed by doubling angles of attack (and you don't have to spin the edge around). |
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Aug 23, 2016 9:39:30 GMT
The speed that the tip moves at during a cut isn't the relevant thing. The important thing is how long it takes to cut, or to thrust. The time needed to cut depends on the moment of inertia, and this will almost always be quite a lot lower for the katana. The time needed to thrust depends on the mass, and this is also almost always quite a lot lower for the katana (even a modern replica katana, much heavier than the average antique, will usually be about 10oz or more lighter than a typical longsword). So why shouldn't a katana be faster, in the ways that matter? But you need to be in range to use that speed, so back to the original problem. The Katana will certainly be a better cutter, though the longsword does not need to be. You don't have to cut an arm off or anything, so the tip is sufficient in taking someone out in a fight, better thrust and sufficient raking action, and tip is much faster because of the shorter POB and 3' compared to 4' thing (while only being 4oz. heavier). Double edge increases speed by doubling angles of attack (and you don't have to spin the edge around). To repeat: exactly how fast the tip moves is irrelevant; the time taken to perform the cut is what matters. A closer POB won't shorten the time taken to cut - it's moment of inertia that matters. 4oz heavier? The average (antique) longsword is 1.5-1.6kg, the average modern cheap Chinese katana is about 1.1-1.2kg, the average antique katana about 900g. That's much more than 4oz difference. But so what? If speed (i.e., needing less time to perform cuts and thrusts) was supreme, knives (lighter and faster) would never have been replaced by swords. Reach matters. The longsword has enough good points that it doesn't need exaggeration or stretching of statistics/maths/physics in its support. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2016 11:34:34 GMT
I don't have a stopwatch but I do not believe the difference in speed in the amount of space and time we are looking at is going to substantially matter, at least by itself. The limiting factor isn't the weapon's speed, it's most likely the swordsman to figure out what he needs to do with what is unfolding around him. "Oh he's doing - ok so I - wait what - argh." Shaving fractions of seconds is good, it's part of why more efficient and tight movements can intercept less efficient ones so I'm not saying it doesn't matter. Being able to get there first and moving faster aren't always the same thing.
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Post by Dalaran1991 on Aug 23, 2016 16:28:35 GMT
For hand to hand combat I'm a 1st Kyu in Aikido, though in these kinds of situation it is better to be trained in jujutsu since the opponent is wearing protection and not a kimono + hakama.
But that's not the problem. Cosmoline is correct that the double edge makes it much more dangerous to get up close and personal. Most japanese weapons are single edged and I think a lot of Japanese grappling techniques assumed this. Plus their limbs are not extended since he kinda expects the bind. Still it always end up on the ground and I dont have a problem there.
My problem is not being able to sufficiently use my bokken against a longsword save for getting up close and personal. It shows me either that I need more work (footwork here) or I need to figure out a way.
Gonna try what Croccifixio suggested.
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Post by Cosmoline on Aug 23, 2016 17:23:34 GMT
That really depends on the JSA. Any comprehensive system with a jiujitsu component should be more than adequate for arming a student when things get really up close and personal. The hard part will be doing it safely. I'd be seriously concerned applying a number of locks or throws on someone in a friendly setting without knowing they can handle it. But since we don't know what he studies and he says he doesn't want to do it anyway it's probably moot. I was referring to wrestling using the blade, which is what you flow into in many longsword moves in close measure. I could be wrong but I didn't think JSA weapons were ever designed to be used as wrestling levers or face bashers. There's no pommel for the teeth or crossguard for the eyeballs or throat. So yeah I'd be very careful trying to tangle with a longsword in close measure using a katana simulator! Safety is paramount as you say. I've had the experience of being taken down with a steel simulator across my neck, and it was one of the only times doing sword stuff that I felt genuinely terrified. And that includes fencing with sharps. Something about steel on the neck as you go down to the ground after a hip check. Not fun. It's usually a good idea to call it done when he's in position to do the assisted takedown. Just stop there. Once you're in that position there's no good way of getting out without self-decapitation. Unlike katana, longswords were all-purpose weapons. They were used against armored opponents on the battlefield. So they were designed to be robust and capable of yanking a guy in full harness off his feet by his neck and doing injury through layers of protection. Or even to be used as a mace when held inverted. Nothing against the katana but it's a tools/jobs issue. One thing you might look at are the messer vs. longsword concepts in Nuremberg. Obviously the messer is one handed, but it's similar to a katana in some respects. And I know its moves cross over with some Chinese saber. wiktenauer.com/wiki/Nuremberg_Group |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2016 17:39:28 GMT
I was referring to wrestling using the blade, which is what you flow into in many longsword moves in close measure. I could be wrong but I didn't think JSA weapons were ever designed to be used as wrestling levers or face bashers. There's no pommel for the teeth or crossguard for the eyeballs or throat. So yeah I'd be very careful trying to tangle with a longsword in close measure using a katana simulator! Safety is paramount as you say. I've had the experience of being taken down with a steel simulator across my neck, and it was one of the only times doing sword stuff that I felt genuinely terrified. And that includes fencing with sharps. Kashira works perfectly well for striking. Used across number of systems usually called tsuka-ate, striking with handle. Also no problem using the sword for leverage in or out of the scabbard, in or out of the belt. Can be used as a choking aid. Rim of the tsuba doesn't extend as far as a crossguard but can be used for striking. Basically hold the sword and punch the guy. Mouth, temples, bridge of nose, pretty much wherever. The limitations are arbitrary, the entire katana can be used as a weapon just as the entire longsword can also be employed. Veering off topic from fighting katana against longsword into katana vs armor but there absolutely were approaches developed. A nice example here Share |
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Post by Cosmoline on Aug 23, 2016 17:43:19 GMT
Really? I've never seen that! Are there videos of katana handle strikes? I always thought the handles were rather lightly held on there with a pin and some cord and wouldn't be up to bashing. Plus there's no steel pommel so how is that going to do damage? That is surprising.
Even still, I really don't think close measure is a good idea for the katana fighter. For the longsword that's pretty much the other half of his weapon. He can knock the lighter weapon aside, half sword, pommel strike, quillion strike, etc. The sword was actually designed to be used that way as a primary means of fighting in harness. You're pitting a beautiful but quite light weight Japanese handle assemblage against a massive steel pommel, a heavy crossguard and a leather wrapped handle all peened together strong enough to be pounded into steel at full speed.
I think you'd be better off luring him into trying ringen while you disengage and cut his arms. Because he's going to want to get you into wrestling, and once he's started to switch to the *alt* longsword postures he's giving up his distance cutting ability for a moment. More critically he's now only able to move as fast as his hand. His sword is turned into a bashing and stabbing weapon that lacks the speed of the cut.
So for example if you get in close strong to strong and put pressure on him, he may start rolling his blade back to position for a pommel bash or assisted takedown. That's your moment to jump under his blade or even better to his left flank and slice/dice katana style. Don't play by his rules, basically. He's expecting you to wrestle at the blade, but you have a shorter weapon that can still cut when it's freed from the bind.
Or if from the same position he smacks the katana out with the crossguard and positions for a zwerch, you could cut underneath and inside his helicopter blade of doom. You can't really counter his position longsword style because your weapon isn't set up for thumb grip strikes with a short edge. But he has to bring the beast around behind his head, and that's your moment to neutralize him.
EDIT--yeah your video is showing just what I was thinking. Rather than staying sticky to the bind and going into wrestling, you cut underneath as he's doing his big wind-up and duck aside, then cut again. I absolutely think that will work against a longsword. When he's in wrestling and halfswording measure, you're still in cutting measure. That's the advantage. But if you try to stay sticky you will not fare well in halfsword and wrestling against the longsword. That's playing on his turf and he'll rip your sword right out of your hands or nail you with a short edge your sword simply doesn't have a counter to.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2016 18:02:25 GMT
There's got to be video, if not it will be pretty much what you'd think accounting for stylistic affectations. Smash him in the grill, or pop the solar plexus to double him over and knock him back. You do damage with a quarter staff jab or a waster thrust right? Whats the practical difference? . This stuff is so fun. Plenty of examples of metal fittings. Soft ones would deform, maybe break a buffalo horn kashira, so what you replace it afterwards. Having a hard time attaching but take a look at oni nanako, nasty little spikes like a meat tenderizer! |
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Post by howler on Aug 23, 2016 23:06:52 GMT
The Katana will certainly be a better cutter, though the longsword does not need to be. You don't have to cut an arm off or anything, so the tip is sufficient in taking someone out in a fight, better thrust and sufficient raking action, and tip is much faster because of the shorter POB and 3' compared to 4' thing (while only being 4oz. heavier). Double edge increases speed by doubling angles of attack (and you don't have to spin the edge around). To repeat: exactly how fast the tip moves is irrelevant; the time taken to perform the cut is what matters. A closer POB won't shorten the time taken to cut - it's moment of inertia that matters. 4oz heavier? The average (antique) longsword is 1.5-1.6kg, the average modern cheap Chinese katana is about 1.1-1.2kg, the average antique katana about 900g. That's much more than 4oz difference. But so what? If speed (i.e., needing less time to perform cuts and thrusts) was supreme, knives (lighter and faster) would never have been replaced by swords. Reach matters. The longsword has enough good points that it doesn't need exaggeration or stretching of statistics/maths/physics in its support. I think we are on different subjects here. Getting into a close quarter cutting struggle with a Katana would be a grave mistake, as I have a Chenese Ko-Katana specialized cutter (21"bld. but weighs 41oz.) under my bed because of this. I get your cutting concept, as the optimal cutting area of the longsword is shorter than the Katana...particularly because you have to kind of draw cut a longsword. But, why do you believe that the area near the tip of a longsword cannot cut a hand, wrist, neck, face of a Katana wielder? I would explain by descriptions of weight of the swords in question as being more of a correction to historical generalizations of the longsword as a monstrous, lumbering "great sword", than an exaggeration. My CS Italian longsword weighs 45oz. while my practical katana weighs 38.5oz. If you say 10oz and I say 4oz...we split the diff and say 7oz., shake hands and come out fighting  , (even still, that closer POB does make the longsword "feel" and be as nimble) and I will give you the better understanding of historical specimen weight, as I'm mainly interested in "what if" matchups of todays offerings, and would never bang antiques around. Because of the longer reach, swords are INFINITELY faster than light knives, faster by measure of the foot, faster by measure of the hand (please see Schola gladiatoria). You are clearly correct in that this is all academic, in that longswords were used in the bind (as a kind of short spear, polearm), where katana avoided blade on blade (brittle edge, lesser guard). It really comes down to specialty vs. versatility. For the Katana to neutralize the basic advantage of the longsword (I suppose that is the question of this thread) one must get within the reach advantage of that tip, before being "sniped to death", then deal with the binding (blade on blade) thing. The (general) advantage goes to the longswordsman, but ability of the combatants is obviously of greatest importance. And, if we are talking confined space, hallways, doorways, shorter ceilings, etc...hey, were is my Chenese Ko-Katana, anyway. |
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, (even still, that closer POB does make the longsword "feel" and be as nimble) and I will give you the better understanding of historical specimen weight, as I'm mainly interested in "what if" matchups of todays offerings, and would never bang antiques around. Because of the longer reach, swords are INFINITELY faster than light knives, faster by measure of the foot, faster by measure of the hand (please see Schola gladiatoria). You are clearly correct in that this is all academic, in that longswords were used in the bind (as a kind of short spear, polearm), where katana avoided blade on blade (brittle edge, lesser guard). It really comes down to specialty vs. versatility. For the Katana to neutralize the basic advantage of the longsword (I suppose that is the question of this thread) one must get within the reach advantage of that tip, before being "sniped to death", then deal with the binding (blade on blade) thing. The (general) advantage goes to the longswordsman, but ability of the combatants is obviously of greatest importance. And, if we are talking confined space, hallways, doorways, shorter ceilings, etc...hey, were is my Chenese Ko-Katana, anyway. 
