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Post by howler on Aug 29, 2016 19:47:24 GMT
“If your sword's too short, add to its length by taking one step forward. .. - Get inside the length of the long sword. This clearly must be done, but is often easier said than done, as (I believe Silver pointed out) the time of the hand is faster than that of the foot (or something to that effect), as they can hit you without having to take that step. So, the ability of the katana wielder (hopefully more than his adversary) is critical. |
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Ifrit
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Post by Ifrit on Aug 29, 2016 23:27:49 GMT
“If your sword's too short, add to its length by taking one step forward. .. - Get inside the length of the long sword. This clearly must be done, but is often easier said than done, as (I believe Silver pointed out) the time of the hand is faster than that of the foot (or something to that effect), as they can hit you without having to take that step. So, the ability of the katana wielder (hopefully more than his adversary) is critical. I remember reading a historical account, it was between the Spanish/Portuguese sailors and the Japanese swordsman on their ship. One thing they noted was the Japanese swordsmans agility from going to an unsheathed sword to a cut. I also remember reading another account. It was about how the samurai tended to train for speed strikes, who strikes the other first. Similar to a western pistol duel. I can't source on these, unfortunately, but my point is that u think if people were doing sword training that was true to Historical samurai swordsmanship, they would possibly be more adapted to fighting with fast motions and single strike take downs, which is where a katana has a bit of an advantage. You usually don't need to cleave through a torso to win a sword duel, unlike a thrust, it's unlikely they will be able to cut you and injure you as well. Not meaning to rebuttle or anything, but just giving some points to ponder that I don't often see brought up when comparing JSA with WMA |
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Ifrit
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More edgy than a double edge sword
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Post by Ifrit on Aug 29, 2016 23:29:46 GMT
This clearly must be done, but is often easier said than done, as (I believe Silver pointed out) the time of the hand is faster than that of the foot (or something to that effect), as they can hit you without having to take that step. So, the ability of the katana wielder (hopefully more than his adversary) is critical. I remember reading a historical account, it was between the Spanish/Portuguese sailors and the Japanese swordsman on their ship. One thing they noted was the Japanese swordsmans agility from going to an unsheathed sword to a cut. I also remember reading another account. It was about how the samurai tended to train for speed strikes, who strikes the other first. Similar to a western pistol duel. I can't source on these, unfortunately, but my point is that u think if people were doing sword training that was true to Historical samurai swordsmanship, they would possibly be more adapted to fighting with fast motions and single strike take downs, which is where a katana has a bit of an advantage. You usually don't need to cleave through a torso to win a sword duel, unlike a thrust, it's unlikely they will be able to cut you and injure you as well. Not meaning to rebuttle or anything, but just giving some points to ponder that I don't often see brought up when comparing JSA with WMA I think if people were doing sword training that was true to Historical*** (My mobile device makes it hard to just edit the post normally) |
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Aug 30, 2016 2:25:20 GMT
I remember reading a historical account, it was between the Spanish/Portuguese sailors and the Japanese swordsman on their ship. One thing they noted was the Japanese swordsmans agility from going to an unsheathed sword to a cut. I also remember reading another account. It was about how the samurai tended to train for speed strikes, who strikes the other first. Similar to a western pistol duel. For some quotes, and links to other discussions: www.tameshigiri.ca/2014/05/07/european-vs-japanese-swordsmen-historical-encounters-in-the-16th-19th-centuries/The battles involving ships tended to be dominated by musketry, cannons, fire, and spears/boarding pikes. |
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Post by howler on Aug 30, 2016 3:47:01 GMT
This clearly must be done, but is often easier said than done, as (I believe Silver pointed out) the time of the hand is faster than that of the foot (or something to that effect), as they can hit you without having to take that step. So, the ability of the katana wielder (hopefully more than his adversary) is critical. I remember reading a historical account, it was between the Spanish/Portuguese sailors and the Japanese swordsman on their ship. One thing they noted was the Japanese swordsmans agility from going to an unsheathed sword to a cut. I also remember reading another account. It was about how the samurai tended to train for speed strikes, who strikes the other first. Similar to a western pistol duel. I can't source on these, unfortunately, but my point is that u think if people were doing sword training that was true to Historical samurai swordsmanship, they would possibly be more adapted to fighting with fast motions and single strike take downs, which is where a katana has a bit of an advantage. You usually don't need to cleave through a torso to win a sword duel, unlike a thrust, it's unlikely they will be able to cut you and injure you as well. Not meaning to rebuttle or anything, but just giving some points to ponder that I don't often see brought up when comparing JSA with WMA Yeah, Katana sorta fought like gun fighters, where the fight was over in a few seconds (no sword on sword, like they do in so many movies). If the take out the quick draw, and the longsword man is ready for it (meaning the sword is out) then much of that is negated. |
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Ifrit
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More edgy than a double edge sword
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Post by Ifrit on Aug 30, 2016 4:11:04 GMT
I remember reading a historical account, it was between the Spanish/Portuguese sailors and the Japanese swordsman on their ship. One thing they noted was the Japanese swordsmans agility from going to an unsheathed sword to a cut. I also remember reading another account. It was about how the samurai tended to train for speed strikes, who strikes the other first. Similar to a western pistol duel. I can't source on these, unfortunately, but my point is that u think if people were doing sword training that was true to Historical samurai swordsmanship, they would possibly be more adapted to fighting with fast motions and single strike take downs, which is where a katana has a bit of an advantage. You usually don't need to cleave through a torso to win a sword duel, unlike a thrust, it's unlikely they will be able to cut you and injure you as well. Not meaning to rebuttle or anything, but just giving some points to ponder that I don't often see brought up when comparing JSA with WMA Yeah, Katana sorta fought like gun fighters, where the fight was over in a few seconds (no sword on sword, like they do in so many movies). If the take out the quick draw, and the longsword man is ready for it (meaning the sword is out) then much of that is negated. Exactly. Using the Katana, specifically, was a very quick competition of speed. It wasn't really a fight. They also normally kept the sword art to streets, as in the battle field their primary weapons were pole arms and arrows, the sword didn't really stand a chance against those. But it was actually used with success in the streets. It wasn't really meant for sparring and battles. It was a specialized sort of duel, like polish sabre, or side sword. |
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Aug 30, 2016 8:40:06 GMT
Along with the cutlass (a relatively short sword) - however fighting on ships would be very different to to a long sword dual. |
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Post by howler on Aug 30, 2016 8:44:16 GMT
Yeah, Katana sorta fought like gun fighters, where the fight was over in a few seconds (no sword on sword, like they do in so many movies). If the take out the quick draw, and the longsword man is ready for it (meaning the sword is out) then much of that is negated. Exactly. Using the Katana, specifically, was a very quick competition of speed. It wasn't really a fight. They also normally kept the sword art to streets, as in the battle field their primary weapons were pole arms and arrows, the sword didn't really stand a chance against those. But it was actually used with success in the streets. It wasn't really meant for sparring and battles. It was a specialized sort of duel, like polish sabre, or side sword. Yup. Longswords were designed to bang on each other all day (sword on sword), while wrestling in the bind, as the steel was more springy, less brittle, and the edges were not tapered as much as katana (which really were to cut meat/flesh), so no chipping. Pole arms were the rifle (main battle implement) while swords (both longsword and katana) were handguns (sidearm, carried on the belt). Never bring a handgun to a gunfight. |
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Post by howler on Aug 30, 2016 8:48:36 GMT
Along with the cutlass (a relatively short sword) - however fighting on ships would be very different to to a long sword dual. Longswords on ships, in tight spaces, shoulder to shoulder, you would probably want to "half sword" the thing and use it as a short spear...or maybe like a short rapier, with offhand dagger (this seems like a good combo, in fact). |
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Aug 30, 2016 9:03:22 GMT
This seems to be the first discussion about katana/longsword without the usual answers: depends on/chuck norris/can of worms/dead horse/there was never a ninjato.
I am no martial arts practitioner, so my questions perhaps are too theoretically or with wrong understandings, please correct me then:
I assume samurai avoided blade contact because of the risk of damaging the TH katana to a point of uselessness.
I think of the scene in 7 samurai when mifune (?) waits to fight a few enemies in the village-battle and takes a few swords and sticks them in the ground to have a replacement.
I think a longsword fighter has a less problem with parrying.
Can he use this to force parrying against the katana-man, perhaps to achieve sword damage?
Pehaps attacs from a certain distance but without to much recovery time.
Of course the katana-man tries to evade this and close in fast.
And the longsworder of course tries to avoid this.
The better in his profession wins.
I hope my thoughts are not too foolish.
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Post by Dalaran1991 on Aug 30, 2016 9:12:28 GMT
He's already able to do that, one of his problems was having his weapon checked after closing in, and either unfamiliarity or disinterest in wrestling which allows the longswordsman to control him with ringen. turn left inside the reach of the long sword so the long blade is against your opponents body and strike to the side. Thanks, I've been working on that exclusively last Sunday. The problem is as stated. I can often get into range to strike but he quickly moves into a bind (he's always in chudan/middle guard). And it ends in wrestling. Which is fine by me, its just that Im trying to learn how to deliver clean neat strikes to improve my sword techniques, not rolling around doing jujutsu (been doing that for 2 years) I think thats part of the problem since we have different mindset. My partner uses a lot of half-swording during the bind and we were wearing protection, so he kinda becomes reckless, while I'm trying to deliver good strikes to an armored opponent. When we were sparring with equal length practice swords with minimal protection, it gets a lot more interesting. I come out slightly better than him since no wrestling or half-swording was involved. I might try that next time, longsword vs bokken no protection to see what its like. At least I got an idea of where the longsword get the advantage: Reach: annoying, but can be negated with a suri-otoshi or suri-age. Seems like not all medieveal swordmen are familiar with this Crossguard + Halfswording: advantage in bind ==> dont get in there, strike and get out Two edges: unexpected riposte I also really need to work on my speed and aggressiveness, which, as people have pointed out, are the advantages of the katana. I realize I was quite on the defensive when I first started the thread, and letting someone with longer reach dictating the pace of a fight is disastrous. |
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Post by Google on Aug 30, 2016 11:14:59 GMT
This seems to be the first discussion about katana/longsword without the usual answers: depends on/chuck norris/can of worms/dead horse/there was never a ninjato. I am no martial arts practitioner, so my questions perhaps are too theoretically or with wrong understandings, please correct me then: I assume samurai avoided blade contact because of the risk of damaging the TH katana to a point of uselessness. I think of the scene in 7 samurai when mifune (?) waits to fight a few enemies in the village-battle and takes a few swords and sticks them in the ground to have a replacement. I think a longsword fighter has a less problem with parrying. Can he use this to force parrying against the katana-man, perhaps to achieve sword damage? Pehaps attacs from a certain distance but without to much recovery time. Of course the katana-man tries to evade this and close in fast. And the longsworder of course tries to avoid this. The better in his profession wins. I hope my thoughts are not too foolish. Never afaraid to ask, if you're honest about your questions. Honestly, all swords will get damaged during use. That's what use does. In the Japanese martial arts you have more deflections than full-on blocking, but the sword is definitely used for defense as well. |
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Post by Dalaran1991 on Aug 30, 2016 12:44:49 GMT
This seems to be the first discussion about katana/longsword without the usual answers: depends on/chuck norris/can of worms/dead horse/there was never a ninjato. I am no martial arts practitioner, so my questions perhaps are too theoretically or with wrong understandings, please correct me then: I assume samurai avoided blade contact because of the risk of damaging the TH katana to a point of uselessness. I think of the scene in 7 samurai when mifune (?) waits to fight a few enemies in the village-battle and takes a few swords and sticks them in the ground to have a replacement. The scenes from 7 samurais are purely for cinema effects... A katana is, at the end of the day, a battle sword forged out of steel, not a piece of biscuit. If you treat it like an axe then yes it will break, but katana as well as any other well made sword are extremely resilient. If it breaks all the time nobody would use it. EDIT: Katanas were used in battle, just as often as bastard swords were, they were not the primary weapons but that doesnt mean they weren't used. Yari/Naginata snap or break, and very often you have to draw your swords for various reasons. Many kenjutsu ryu have assume that you both are wearing armors and their katas were developed for this. I dont think the argument that katanas are only meant for duelling is valid at all. Its just that the popular styles of iai gave off that impressions. Not how my partner uses it, at least. It's very hard to force parry a katana, the curve of the blade made it so that it will slide off/out of another blade and whip back for a riposte. While some Kenjutsu moves have the swordman parrying a blow with one hand on the flat of the blade, this is not meant to be a parry but a quick stop to the incoming blow so that you can come back with a tsuka strike. I dont think any swordman would try to achieve "sword-damage" per se on another. Its very hard to damage another's sword without damaging your own sword. If its a polearm vs sword then thats another story. Well this is basically my bokken vs longswords sparring looks like. He tries to jab and quick slashes from a distance, I deflect and move inside his guard, he has the option of either stepping back to maintain his range or stepping in to a bind, and he always chose the latter. During the bind teh cross guard can be used to hook and leverage the katana. If I wanted to play it hard I could grap his crossguard and force the blade away, but I usually try to get out of the bind to counter-attack. |
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Post by Cosmoline on Aug 30, 2016 16:40:41 GMT
Of course longswords were used as axes and spears. I's my understanding that the process for swordmaking in Japan created a harder cutting edge but a softer spine. So I really don't think it would be a good idea to try to use a kataa as one would use a longsword. Esp. in harnessfetchen. They are similar tools, but by no means identical. Longswords were not typically carried around court, and I don't think there was a halfswording/inverted system of fighting developed for the katana to bring down armored opponents. I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure the Japanese had other tools for that job. Katana as "EDC" weapons were probably closer to side swords, messer or even sword and buckler. Going against a longer, springier, more durable weapon presents difficulties. And really it may be the comparison should be between langes messer and katana. The messer may have a shorter blade, but its one handed use gives the attacker a notch extra reach. That would be a more interesting contest. S&B would be another option, but the katana would have little chance there ;-)
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Aug 30, 2016 16:48:46 GMT
Thank you very much for your explanations.
The mentioned scene seemed to be more realistic for me than the endless hard parrying samurai-superkatana in other movies.
Wearing a secondary weapon means you consider failure of the other weapon.
I know many katana/tachi were battle weapons too and could deflect, but i thought it was tried to avoid this if possible more as a principle than in european longswording, which could give a little additional advantage to the difference in lenght, but not in sparring.
But that are useless thoughts, such a duell is only possible in sparring.
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Post by Robert in California on Aug 30, 2016 18:54:57 GMT
Well, no expert here....years and years ago, I hung out with the local S.C.A. European style fighters. I fit in like a duck among chickens with my kendo gear and shinai. They wore steel armor and used rattan weapons. I enjoyed some sparring, shinai vs. shield and long sword (a rattan practice sword designed for one handed use). It was hard to get past the shield. Go for the legs and get hit in the head or upper body. The S.C.A. sword&shield fighter would basically "hide" behind his shield...which btw, he was nice enough to not use as a weapon and bash me with it....the S.C.A. folks I hung out with and was a light fighter for (javelin), were nice folks. Maybe not 100% "normal" but good people (and are we what the current common culture considers "normal"?).
Anyway, against a S.C.A. one handed/long sword and shield fighter, I found footwork (move faster than the armored up guy) and going to kote or forearm strikes was the way to go. Timing was key...since one basically has to do a counterattack because the S.C.A. fighter is very hard to reach while behind the (big) shield.
RinC
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Post by howler on Aug 30, 2016 21:53:07 GMT
This seems to be the first discussion about katana/longsword without the usual answers: depends on/chuck norris/can of worms/dead horse/there was never a ninjato. I am no martial arts practitioner, so my questions perhaps are too theoretically or with wrong understandings, please correct me then: I assume samurai avoided blade contact because of the risk of damaging the TH katana to a point of uselessness. I think of the scene in 7 samurai when mifune (?) waits to fight a few enemies in the village-battle and takes a few swords and sticks them in the ground to have a replacement. The scenes from 7 samurais are purely for cinema effects... A katana is, at the end of the day, a battle sword forged out of steel, not a piece of biscuit. If you treat it like an axe then yes it will break, but katana as well as any other well made sword are extremely resilient. If it breaks all the time nobody would use it. EDIT: Katanas were used in battle, just as often as bastard swords were, they were not the primary weapons but that doesnt mean they weren't used. Yari/Naginata snap or break, and very often you have to draw your swords for various reasons. Many kenjutsu ryu have assume that you both are wearing armors and their katas were developed for this. I dont think the argument that katanas are only meant for duelling is valid at all. Its just that the popular styles of iai gave off that impressions. Not how my partner uses it, at least. It's very hard to force parry a katana, the curve of the blade made it so that it will slide off/out of another blade and whip back for a riposte. While some Kenjutsu moves have the swordman parrying a blow with one hand on the flat of the blade, this is not meant to be a parry but a quick stop to the incoming blow so that you can come back with a tsuka strike. I dont think any swordman would try to achieve "sword-damage" per se on another. Its very hard to damage another's sword without damaging your own sword. If its a polearm vs sword then thats another story. Well this is basically my bokken vs longswords sparring looks like. He tries to jab and quick slashes from a distance, I deflect and move inside his guard, he has the option of either stepping back to maintain his range or stepping in to a bind, and he always chose the latter. During the bind teh cross guard can be used to hook and leverage the katana. If I wanted to play it hard I could grap his crossguard and force the blade away, but I usually try to get out of the bind to counter-attack. Katana were certainly used in all realms, including battlefield, but they were indeed mainly dueling (think kind of ceremonial "gunfighters") where the fight was short, and blade contact was avoided, as these things were optimized for cutting flesh. Both Katana and Longsword were side arms (carried on belt, like handgun) while the polearm was the primary battlefield weapon (like rifle). The only advantage of longsword was its length and versatility (compared to katana), at 25% longer, springy steel with less chippy edge, better guard, double edge (doubling attack angles), you could whack all day (blade on blade), and use it like a short spear from the bind (blade wrestling). I have a Chenese Ko-Katana specialized cutter (21" blade, at 41oz.) under my bed. You see, katana shines in specialized areas, while longsword is more generalized versatility. I think everyone should have BOTH  . |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2016 22:11:21 GMT
Thank you very much for your explanations. The mentioned scene seemed to be more realistic for me than the endless hard parrying samurai-superkatana in other movies. Wearing a secondary weapon means you consider failure of the other weapon. I know many katana/tachi were battle weapons too and could deflect, but i thought it was tried to avoid this if possible more as a principle than in european longswording, which could give a little additional advantage to the difference in lenght, but not in sparring. But that are useless thoughts, such a duell is only possible in sparring. Couple of things. Shoto isn't just a backup, if you've surrendered your sword for example entering someone elses castle or something, your tanto or wakizashi is now your main arm. Also, it is a good option to fall to if in a close struggle or dispatching downed opponent, similar to how rondelle or miserichorde would be used. And yes, it can be used if your sword is broken, taken away, damaged, or perfectly intact but unavailible because it got wedged in to something and you dont have time to wrench it free. But this is katana v longsword not wakizashi or tanto so we are assuming open ground and all that. Just thought it might be interesting to you. You can chew up the shinogi all day long on both sides before getting in too much trouble. Its pretty unlikely to go for extended exchanges, you may get a couple swings in, but one or both would drop before too long. Its the difference between going until politely separating after a touch is made or a halt is requested, and going until being physically incapacitated. Most likely one person is sadly outmatched, or both close enough to get a "draw". Not impossible, but really doubtful. The damage can be controlled to some extent. You don't just bang swords together, you catch the opponent on a part that gives you better control or you stifle his attack so you aren't just whaling on each others blades like a three year old with toy trucks. |
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Aug 30, 2016 22:19:50 GMT
Well this is basically my bokken vs longswords sparring looks like. He tries to jab and quick slashes from a distance, I deflect and move inside his guard, he has the option of either stepping back to maintain his range or stepping in to a bind, and he always chose the latter. During the bind teh cross guard can be used to hook and leverage the katana. Exploit this: "he always chose the latter". If I wanted to play it hard I could grap his crossguard and force the blade away, but I usually try to get out of the bind to counter-attack. Don't force the blade away; just disengage. All you need to do is keep his blade roughly where it is while you disengage and cut or thrust (you should have space to disengage by withdrawing your blade - when your point comes off his blade, just drop it a little and thrust). Grabbing his cross isn't the only option. Other things to try: grabbing his lead hand, grabbing his blade between your blade and his cross, grabbing his blade just on the point side of your blade, grabbing his grip between his hands (if there's enough space). Pressing against hand or blade can work instead of grabbing. Depending on his habits in the bind, you might be able to lure him into binding high, pushing horizontally. Encourage him to push hard. Duck, and let you sword go with his push, drop your point and step in close, past him, slicing belly height as you go. If he binds, you are at a good distance. You've passed the danger zone where he can hit you and you can't hit him. You are where you want to be. The only problem is that fighting in the bind is highly technical. Two choices: learn to fight in the bind (a single edged weapon means some stuff won't work, but a lot of stuff will work with a katana), or disengage ASAP. Push your blade up so that you meet his blade near your tsuba, and go one-handed. Grab/trap/press with your free hand, disengage and cut/thrust. The second option is one way to deal with a polearm-armed opponent after closing. Compared to a polearm, the longsword has less leverage, and a bind-happy longswordist give you a little more time to do this than a polearmist (who will be trying to avoid giving you the position to let you carry out the 2nd option even before you get there, unlike a habitual binder who is actively trying to get you into that position). |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2016 22:28:00 GMT
Dont forget that "disengage" doesn't have to be a retreat. You can shove him away. Look at Lee's one inch punch for one option. Book of Five Rings talks about attacking with the body instead of the sword, get your lines and directions right and knock him back.
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Nov 1, 2024 0:13:58 GMT
Nov 1, 2024 0:13:58 GMT
