Zen_Hydra
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Born with a heart full of neutrality
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Aug 23, 2016 23:46:28 GMT
Lengths of both longsword and katana varied by user, fashion, and/or purpose. The path of least resistance is to use weapons of equal length. Musashi was concerned enough about the advantage the length of Sasaki Kojiro's odachi gave him that he used a spare boat oar to duel him (apocryphally). Remove the overt advantage of length, and then have a contest of skill and style.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Aug 24, 2016 0:53:07 GMT
But, why do you believe that the area near the tip of a longsword cannot cut a hand, wrist, neck, face of a Katana wielder? I don't. I didn't say anything of the sort. I was only commenting on the time needed to perform a cut or thrust. Because of the longer reach, swords are INFINITELY faster than light knives, faster by measure of the foot, faster by measure of the hand (please see Schola gladiatoria). Reach is not the same as speed, and the two should not be conflated into a single factor labelled "speed". Otherwise, we end up looking silly as we claim that the 6m pike is the "fastest" of all H2H weapons. Start in close, and a knife wielder will cut a longsword wielder sooner, and more often. That doesn't sound like INFINITELY slower. The longsword does have a lot more reach (not infinitely more, but a lot more). But i's better to call reach "reach" than to call reach "speed". |
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Post by howler on Aug 24, 2016 3:16:26 GMT
Lengths of both longsword and katana varied by user, fashion, and/or purpose. The path of least resistance is to use weapons of equal length. Musashi was concerned enough about the advantage the length of Sasaki Kojiro's odachi gave him that he used a spare boat oar to duel him (apocryphally). Remove the overt advantage of length, and then have a contest of skill and style. This is a good point, as the larger weapons approach polearm application, you begin to suffer from the "main battlefield weapon" (rifle) vs. "sidearm" (handgun)...though the differences can be greater or lesser, so there is some grey area. A naginata beats a Katana like a Halberd/Bill beats a longsword. Never bring a sword (sidearm) to a polearm (main weapon) fight. |
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Post by howler on Aug 24, 2016 3:48:04 GMT
But, why do you believe that the area near the tip of a longsword cannot cut a hand, wrist, neck, face of a Katana wielder? I don't. I didn't say anything of the sort. I was only commenting on the time needed to perform a cut or thrust. Because of the longer reach, swords are INFINITELY faster than light knives, faster by measure of the foot, faster by measure of the hand (please see Schola gladiatoria). Reach is not the same as speed, and the two should not be conflated into a single factor labelled "speed". Otherwise, we end up looking silly as we claim that the 6m pike is the "fastest" of all H2H weapons. Start in close, and a knife wielder will cut a longsword wielder sooner, and more often. That doesn't sound like INFINITELY slower. The longsword does have a lot more reach (not infinitely more, but a lot more). But i's better to call reach "reach" than to call reach "speed". We are getting closer to understanding as to what each other is saying, Timo. I think we need to understand the relationship between time and distance (reach) a little more. While I think it is important to define what each is, specifically, it is also important to see how the two interact. Like space and time, you cannot measure the one without the other. BILLIONS AND BILLIONS (sorry, my Carl Sagan impersonation  ). In many aspects, reach is speed. Take your arm and stick it in front of you with your thumb facing straight up and spin your wrist so your thumb is now facing the side, now do the same thing with a foot long ruler in your hand. The speed of the movement is basically the same, but the distance covered is doubled or more (infinite is an exaggeration...I like to do this sometimes, which I admit is a negative personality quirk...to try to emphasize a point), and this is clearly much faster (a reach thing measured in time). This is just the time of the hand. The time of the foot is even slower, and a longer weapon can circumvent that all together (making the longer weapon faster in this way...I think Silver talks of this). Getting in close, say, in a phone booth, even the Katana is worthless (compared to a bowie), but this is not due to speed. I think we are seeing the same thing, both the advantages and disadvantages of these swords, but are calling these advantages different things. I do know this, I would have to be insane to face a katana wielder (or longsword, polearm) without a...I was going to say handgun...but lets say RIFLE...AT DISTANCE! |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2016 11:30:56 GMT
Hello gentlement. Sorry if I'm beating a dead horse but I couldnt find anything close with a search. Please, I have no intention of getting into the "which is better" discussion, I'm asking for techniques tips. Im a kenjutsuka and Im hanging out with some folks doing european medieval fencing. A guy I usually fence with use a longsword/bastard sword rather well. I'm having trouble negating his range advantage + the crossguard. The longer reach gives an obvious advantage when it comes to thrusting. I find that when I do manage to get close he often manages to use the longsword guard to lock my blade and follow up with quick nicks. The most basic entrance I usually do, like in this one here around 2:22, is about the only thing that works but again the crossguard make it much harder. Any kenjutsu/kendoka has advice on this? Thanks, How often do you get together, when do you think you'll have your next meeting? If you're able to film what you happens, you can get more specific about the problems you are facing. You don't have to share video if you don't want, it would just be a good reference for you. If you can't film, maybe write down what happens as best as you can. |
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Post by Dalaran1991 on Aug 24, 2016 13:11:58 GMT
Every Sunday. I'll try to see if I can get it filmed, no problem sharing. Just hope my lady doesnt find out or else the longsword will be the least of my concern lol :D
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Post by howler on Aug 24, 2016 21:49:47 GMT
Hello gentlement. Sorry if I'm beating a dead horse but I couldnt find anything close with a search. Please, I have no intention of getting into the "which is better" discussion, I'm asking for techniques tips. Im a kenjutsuka and Im hanging out with some folks doing european medieval fencing. A guy I usually fence with use a longsword/bastard sword rather well. I'm having trouble negating his range advantage + the crossguard. The longer reach gives an obvious advantage when it comes to thrusting. I find that when I do manage to get close he often manages to use the longsword guard to lock my blade and follow up with quick nicks. The most basic entrance I usually do, like in this one here around 2:22, is about the only thing that works but again the crossguard make it much harder. Any kenjutsu/kendoka has advice on this? Thanks, How often do you get together, when do you think you'll have your next meeting? If you're able to film what you happens, you can get more specific about the problems you are facing. You don't have to share video if you don't want, it would just be a good reference for you. If you can't film, maybe write down what happens as best as you can. It is kind of a general vs specific thing. The longsword (for many reasons) generally has the advantage, as it is so versatile. However, that does not stop me from having a Chenese Ko-katana specialized cutter (21"bld at 41oz.) under my bed, as it shines in specialized applications. On open field, the length, double edge, guard, ability to engage in the bind (sword on sword) do give the longsword several general advantages, but you really don't want to mess with an expert katana wielder (or even a novice one), as you risk becoming Sashimi. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2016 22:15:14 GMT
What can someone do with a federschwert or a waster that could not be done with a bokken or blunted katana?
I guess grabbing the cross guard is an obvious one. Kind of hard to grip the tsuba to leverage your opponent, so there's one to start. Edit: thinking more, you've got the murder stroke, I guess being able to hook with the cross, and... I don't know, unscrewing the pommel and throwing it? There's got to be more than that.
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Post by Cosmoline on Aug 26, 2016 17:23:39 GMT
Well pretty much every short edge cut including all the various zwerchs and winden is not going to have much impact with the back edge of a katana--except to bruise perhaps or break a bone if the impact is hard enough. It's the one thing I'd classify as a true shortcoming in the Japanese blade's design. And perhaps it had to do with the way the sword was made. But even a short sharp edge on the last third of the blade would have allowed all kinds of new attacks. Like we see with the langes messer.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2016 18:01:22 GMT
The mune can be used to strike though, so unless the techniques you are describing were meant to be slices then they would still work perfectly fine. You can't of course slice effectively with a dull edge, but you certainly can hit with them. There was the moroha zukuri / kogarasu-maru with a sharpened back edge portion so it isn't like the idea never occured. Even without the back edge, an attack like a zwerchau delivered with a katana would drive the acute tip of the kissaki into the opponent due to the curvature.
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Post by Cosmoline on Aug 26, 2016 21:42:40 GMT
Even the short edge windings are intended to deliver serious or fatal cuts. A short edge zwerch is one of the most powerful blows in the system. It can do real damage even through a mask with back of the head protection. Not to mention the other cross-wrist attacks in German longsword But are katana intended to be used with the thumb grip in the first place? Without that it becomes a different cut. Less of a helicopter blade of doom and more of a kind of stab.
Outside of the forms, the big advantage of the short edge is the flexibility it offers. You don't have to reangle your weapon to make cuts. This is particularly seen in earlier schools such as I.33 where the blade is able to turn on its long axis and constantly create a threat. For example I can cut from left shoulder with the short edge, flip the blade to the long edge to displace and aid the overbind, then cut to the neck with the long edge. If he pushes my bind to my right and out of alignment, I can shield strike and come around with a short edge cut to the right temple. There's always something threatening. That gets diminished in later sword systems with protected hilt blades or in the Japanese systems with only one cutting edge.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2016 22:31:23 GMT
Trauma to the head from mune-uchi is not trivial. Doesn't the fact that "it can do real damage even through a mask" when you are talking about a feder kind of suggest that? A mune has a much more concentrated surface area than a rounded feder. Steel to the dome is steel to the dome. Similarly, you're not going to want a meaningful strike to the neck or throat. You wouldn't just laugh off a waster or feder hit to those areas just because the striking implement isn't sharpened.
There are various grips that are employed for different situations. We'd probably have to be in the room together to know if we're on the same page with regard to the specifics of the grip or nomenclature.
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Post by Google on Aug 26, 2016 23:12:12 GMT
Use swords of equal length, or use your katana one handed if it's shorter (length matters). Close your center-line, watch his movements and move accordingly. If he's open, penetrate straight. If he's closed, work around. Use small movements.
That's pretty much it. Strive for these principals and everything will come with experience.
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Post by howler on Aug 27, 2016 1:49:16 GMT
The mune can be used to strike though, so unless the techniques you are describing were meant to be slices then they would still work perfectly fine. You can't of course slice effectively with a dull edge, but you certainly can hit with them. There was the moroha zukuri / kogarasu-maru with a sharpened back edge portion so it isn't like the idea never occured. Even without the back edge, an attack like a zwerchau delivered with a katana would drive the acute tip of the kissaki into the opponent due to the curvature. Yeah, the "raking" effect of the back edge point. Often, that's the part that hits anyway, tearing into the opponent. |
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Post by Cosmoline on Aug 28, 2016 1:31:12 GMT
Trauma to the head from mune-uchi is not trivial. Doesn't the fact that "it can do real damage even through a mask" when you are talking about a feder kind of suggest that? A mune has a much more concentrated surface area than a rounded feder. Steel to the dome is steel to the dome. Similarly, you're not going to want a meaningful strike to the neck or throat. You wouldn't just laugh off a waster or feder hit to those areas just because the striking implement isn't sharpened. There are various grips that are employed for different situations. We'd probably have to be in the room together to know if we're on the same page with regard to the specifics of the grip or nomenclature. I suppose if you discount the fact that real blades would be sharp, there isn't a huge difference between a katana simulator and a longsword simulator. but I can assure you there would be a HUGE difference between being hit with the dull side of a katana and the short edge of a longsword. The one may give you a concussion, but the other will remove headache issues forever ;-) Raking aside, I'm pretty sure you can't take a head or limb off with the dull side of the katana. That really would be magical. Two edges allow that kind of attack. Whether that's ultimately a worthy advantage is a debate point I suppose, but I'm sold on its utility. Many of the strikes with longsword are short edge and it's used a great deal in I.33. On the other hand there are equally old systems such as Persia's where the back edge is kept dull and used for displacements and other things. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2016 2:39:21 GMT
You don't have to take a head clean off, crushing is serious. The closest simulator I could get ahold of on short notice was a coconut from a local ethnic grocery shop, and a standard swing with the blade inverted cracked the thing in half. By standard swing, I mean no more force than typical for a meaningful cut and not the excessive windup one might assume.
Now I'm not saying it will be likely to literally split a skull in half, but it should be enough to drop someone and at that point you can do whatever you want so it's kind of moot. You don't just take a shot like that to the head and stand there.
Likewise, you don't have to take a limb off if you break it, whether it's on the ground or just hanging on by tissue, it's out of play. It isn't about leaving a bruise or welt that's for the rattan folks, it's breaking and crushing. And of course totally optional because you can just as easily not turn the blade over and make the cut if you so desire. I mean, yeah sure crush the head if you want, but if you can swing at the temple you can just as easily target below the jawline and take the whole thing off anyway (and from a mechanically superior grip in the first place).
A zwerchau would actually be even more effective with a curved blade. Once it's turned over, it would essentially wrap around the other swordsman's attack. Look at the shape of the arm if you were to throw a hook - the arm is essentially curving inward like a scythe, a falx, or.... a turned around katana.
I'm not trying to play katana salesman - they are my primary sword interest but I know longswords are also cool. The nicest thing I own is my longsword, I'm not going to downplay the things. We all prefer things for various reasons. I can definitely see preferring the training approach from longsword / HEMA over the JSA angle, appreciating the aesthetics of one over the other, and so on. When it looks like I'm seeing something like "katana can't do X", I'll take a moment and think about whether that runs contrary to something I've either already done or if it seems like something that can be done, and work through it to find out. Almost every single time, it turns out that what can be done with one could be done with the other.
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Aug 28, 2016 13:08:40 GMT
“If your sword's too short, add to its length by taking one step forward. .. -
Get inside the length of the long sword.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Aug 28, 2016 13:35:02 GMT
“If your sword's too short, add to its length by taking one step forward. .. - Get inside the length of the long sword. That is probably the best advice given. Actually it is a must. GET INSIDE THE LENGTH OF THE LONG SWORD. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2016 16:06:50 GMT
He's already able to do that, one of his problems was having his weapon checked after closing in, and either unfamiliarity or disinterest in wrestling which allows the longswordsman to control him with ringen.
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Aug 29, 2016 11:43:47 GMT
He's already able to do that, one of his problems was having his weapon checked after closing in, and either unfamiliarity or disinterest in wrestling which allows the longswordsman to control him with ringen. turn left inside the reach of the long sword so the long blade is against your opponents body and strike to the side. |
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). In many aspects, reach is speed. Take your arm and stick it in front of you with your thumb facing straight up and spin your wrist so your thumb is now facing the side, now do the same thing with a foot long ruler in your hand. The speed of the movement is basically the same, but the distance covered is doubled or more (infinite is an exaggeration...I like to do this sometimes, which I admit is a negative personality quirk...to try to emphasize a point), and this is clearly much faster (a reach thing measured in time). This is just the time of the hand. The time of the foot is even slower, and a longer weapon can circumvent that all together (making the longer weapon faster in this way...I think Silver talks of this). Getting in close, say, in a phone booth, even the Katana is worthless (compared to a bowie), but this is not due to speed. I think we are seeing the same thing, both the advantages and disadvantages of these swords, but are calling these advantages different things. I do know this, I would have to be insane to face a katana wielder (or longsword, polearm) without a...I was going to say handgun...but lets say RIFLE...AT DISTANCE! 
