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Post by Cosmoline on Apr 23, 2018 19:47:34 GMT
When you think about it, take away the fancy hilt and the smallsword really becomes quite scary. 100% made for fatal wounds, all serious business at least for the fighting smallswords. Stick it on the end of a six foot hardwood pole and the smallsword gets even more frightening.
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Post by legacyofthesword on Apr 23, 2018 21:44:28 GMT
When you think about it, take away the fancy hilt and the smallsword really becomes quite scary. 100% made for fatal wounds, all serious business at least for the fighting smallswords. Stick it on the end of a six foot hardwood pole and the smallsword gets even more frightening.
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Post by howler on Apr 23, 2018 23:20:26 GMT
When you think about it, take away the fancy hilt and the smallsword really becomes quite scary. 100% made for fatal wounds, all serious business at least for the fighting smallswords. Stick it on the end of a six foot hardwood pole and the smallsword gets even more frightening. And INFINETLY more so when you have rows upon rows of them in (pike) formation. Omitting proper firearms, naturally.
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Post by zabazagobo on Apr 24, 2018 3:47:13 GMT
Stick it on the end of a six foot hardwood pole and the smallsword gets even more frightening. And INFINETLY more so when you have rows upon rows of them in (pike) formation. Omitting proper firearms, naturally. That is a fun image to think up, in a strictly hypothetical and not visceral way
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Post by howler on Apr 24, 2018 6:45:59 GMT
And INFINETLY more so when you have rows upon rows of them in (pike) formation. Omitting proper firearms, naturally. That is a fun image to think up, in a strictly hypothetical and not visceral way Well...a weee bit of fun viscerally as well...depending on the mood, of course.
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Post by Dalaran1991 on Aug 10, 2018 22:57:30 GMT
Reporting in after a long time off. So I've been training HEMA longsword for half a year now at one of the best club in Paris and I definitely got a lot better with timing and footwork. At the same time I also develop a big appreciation for the longsword. It's simply a very well designed jack of all trade weapons.
Sparring fight today with my bokken against a longsword friend and I got way better than when I started this thread. I mainly dodge his first attack, then charge in while taking his blade against mine and close in for a quick slash where the katana is much more maneuvrable. This is how I got in 2 clean hit today.
My problem now comes from another aspect: endurance. I have to move around A LOT more with the bokken against the longsword, and I find that I tired very quickly. Keep in mind that I've been training aikido, kenjutsu and various sport for a long time and I'm a very athletic guy. My problem is that during those quick burst of intense action I forgot to breath because I was so concentrated. I could easily do 100 strikes for suburito and not break a sweat but it seems all those training got thrown out of the window when you do full contact.
Anyone got some tips? Thanks gents
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Aug 10, 2018 23:43:52 GMT
The good news is that endurance wouldn't be such a big problem in a real fight. You'll either win or lose very quickly, and then you can either recover your breath, or you don't need to recover your breath.
You can work on that kind of short-burst endurance. Short sprints. Hit a heavy bag in short intense bursts (punching/kicking is the usual, but you should be able to do similar with a pell and sword). Lots more exercises will help. However, the first thing to try to do is to relax. If you're not breathing, you're probably too tense, and this will slow you down. Relax, and you'll have better endurance and move faster and better. This is difficult to learn. Do lots of training that puts you in that tense zone, and work on being relaxed. It will take time, maybe a long time. You can also do that kind of training when you are very tired - too tired to be that tense (I don't know how well this will transfer to staying more relaxed when not tired, but I think it does help.)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2018 5:08:05 GMT
It is gratifying to come back and see you getting success from recommendations made long ago, such as closing the line and riding in to close distance and take your opponent.
Analyze what is different about your solo practice where you can breathe, and the sparring where you discover you are holding your breath.
Find a way to put the kind of pressure you are experiencing in your sparring into your solo work. Make your solo work harder on yourself. See if you can change the equation so that you invest so much more mental attention into your suburi that when you face your opponent you find him less demanding than the hell you put yourself through. After all, you don't have to visualize him, he does his part for you so it should be half as much work.
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Post by Dalaran1991 on Aug 11, 2018 10:29:50 GMT
Yes, the great advices from this forum is awesome supplement to my training. It complements my club practice very well since my master of arm's answer to everything is sparring, so having ideas to try out during sparring its great.
Anyway, i find it hard to simulate the same intensity during solo training due to the simple fact that it lacks the visual stimulation and the guaranteed sense of danger. "Everyone got a plan until they get hit". Pell work or suburi doesn't hit you back so even if you are imagini g the opponent is there, the intensity just isn't there. You can't fake the fight or flight response.
The second part is rythm. In live sparring the rythm of combat change every second. The longsword having superior range usually set the pace for the opening of combat, then the katana must immediately take advantage of an opening and charge un hard. Ya'all know how fast a longsword strike is, there's no stimulating it outside of combat. Its these kind of actions that consumes my focus so much i forget to breathe. When i focus on breathing i m slower to react. Guess our brain is just not used to multitasking.
Anyway practice makes perfect. I'm thinking of making a rotating pell that hit you back like the old medieval training, that might help
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Post by MOK on Aug 11, 2018 11:11:35 GMT
I think the way to get over that is just to focus on your breathing, regardless. In for 4, hold for 4, out for 4, hold for 4, repeat. If it impedes your reaction time, let it - this is training, not life and death combat; the only fail condition is not learning.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2018 22:41:19 GMT
A swing is a swing, whether in "combat" or practice, unless someone is phoning it in. If there isn't enough pressure in paired or solo practice, that can be fixed by taking the practice more seriously. The more *committed partner work you get, the better you should be able to get in visualizing it to work out with on your own time.
It is very crucial to get the pressure to have a frame of reference. Sparring or not, your partner or teacher should he able to throw something at you that commands respect. If they just half-ass it until you put on helmets and gloves or whatever you are really missing out.
*"sincere" is probably a better word. "Committed" has a connotation of heavy and hard like a haymaker. I mean "committed" to getting the most out of training*
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Post by zabazagobo on Aug 12, 2018 1:54:04 GMT
An exercise I've practiced with katana for a while that helps maintain breathing while swinging a sword around is to consciously breathe in a relaxed, slow manner (pick an interval that's comfortable to you) with deep breaths. While breathing in this way, using synchronized footwork complete a series of attacks along the four main axis the sword travels on: diagonal up-right to down-left, diagonal down-right to up left, horizontal left-right, vertical down and a direct thrust.
I often default to doing them in this order: above right shoulder down to the left and back up along that axis; above left shoulder down to the right and back up along that axis; horizontal left to right; lower left to above right shoulder and back down again; lower right to above left shoulder and back down again; bring the sword above the head and slash down, when the tip passes the level of your waist, thrust forward aggressively so that the tip ends at about neck height. I mix up the order of the sequence so as not to become bored as well as to practice transitions.
As you build up speed and force while doing those cuts, and change up the order of the swings as you practice, never let your rate of breathing speed up or increase in intensity no matter whether you're fast or slow, calm or aggressive. It's worked wonders for training my breathing to remain calm despite whatever activity's going on. The key is to maintain steady footwork and execute the entire sequence fluidly in continuous motion.
Another good, although somewhat silly, exercise is, with ample space to do so, sprint forward while swinging your sword along the diagonal planes above your waist (don't let the sword swing too low as a safety precaution). Swing the sword gracefully, but more importantly don't break your run/dash/sprint. It's great cardio and helps condition you to control your swings during fast footwork, although it is kind of silly; I refer to it as the 'Charging Nerd' exercise. It's more of a conditioning exercise than anything else, although I imagine if you could get this down with a claymore, zweihander or montante it could maaaybe be viable haha
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Post by koutlosh on Oct 13, 2018 20:42:08 GMT
Way to save your stamina could probably be in trying to apply "versetzen", "nachreisen" or "zucken" principles more often in that fight. Is there anything like those in JSA?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2018 21:15:44 GMT
There's going to be parallels in pretty much any weapon based art since human anatomy, space/distance, and timing/intervals aren't really exclusive to any particular culture.
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Post by koutlosh on Oct 13, 2018 21:54:53 GMT
This is my assumption, I hope for some more detailed information about it. I am fan of finding similarities in fencing traditions of different cultures. It is strong confirmation that this principle is valid and works well "on the street" if there is more mentionts of same thing from all around the globe.
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Post by Dalaran1991 on Jul 15, 2019 22:39:06 GMT
Got a cool update for you gents.
As said, I quit Kenjutsu for HEMA for a while now. The HEMA family here is awesome and boasts some of Europe's and world's champions. Lucky Im based in Paris I guess.
Summer training, and I just got a beater blunt katana for sparring full contact, was eager to put it into use. The best member of my club, a longswordman in the world's top 20 rankings, offer to use the katana against me using the longsword. Certainly gonna be an interesting match.
This man has excellent techniques, footwork, endurance, on top of being a full head taller than me. He has never used the katana before but it is, after all, a two handed sword.
I have some decent experience in general fencing, nowhere near competition level, but I'm familiar with both the longsword and the katana.
Rules of engagement: NO THRUST, NO HANDS TO HANDS COMBAT. Otherwise all things permitted.
The full vid:
This sparring was one of the best I've ever done. Interestingly it confirms a lot of the consensus on this thread:
1) The longsword has excellent reach and can dictate the flow of the duel.
I've always been in the "attack is the best defense" camp especially against a skilled opponent. Always pressing forward and utilize the greater reach of the longsword for quick combos I was able to score quite a few points, mostly in the hands and arms though. Real proud of my last hit, I was out of breath so I charge in crying "for the emperor" and landed a nice hit square in the ribs :D Banzai!!!!
2) Techniques, footwork and familiarity with the weapon makes up for a lot.
In regards to point 1), despite having 40cm of reach advantage and being on the attack I could only score non-fatal hits except for the very last one where I got him square in the hips. He was really good at parrying most of my attacks, the only reason he took some hit was because he forgot the katana doesn't have a crossguard.
3) The katana might have a range disadvantage but you can make up for it by using counter-attacking and being very aggressive.
You can see at 2:03 that was an excellent riposte, and very by-the-book from a kenjutsu standpoint. I took that blade full in the face and only thing I could think of was "damn that's some Procreateing beautiful hit". In this instance I also make the mistake of coming into the katana range where its signature windmill riposte is very deadly. Had my opponent been more aggressive with the katana and manage to get in close I was pretty sure the fight would have been a lot more one-sided. That would be pretty doable given he got very good footwork and stamina. Example at 3:03: nice step forward with a textbook cut right to the head.
Contrary to popular belief the longsword is not anywhere slower than a katana. However I think the misconception arise from the conception of distance. If the katana is in a distance to hit the longswordman that means the longswordman is NOT in his optimal range. Where the katana can get a full swing in the longsword would have to do a bind (which I didn't) and even then the curve of the katana and the shorter length would make getting a riposte in possible. Assuming skilled user with footwork of course.
Overall great experience. This kind of unequal arms contest is exactly I love the most about sword training. Learned a poo ton today from my partner despite the fact that he doesnt even do katana.
Key takeaway for katana user: footwork, get in close range, use your counter attacks.
Personal notes:
-My breathing sucks big time. I tire way sooner than he does.
-Footwork still needs work. Couldnt do any side stepping that is crucial in JSA.
-Stance needs more work. Often Im unstable at the end of a combo making a counter/riposte impossible.
Food for thoughts:
This match up is very interesting and unique IMO. It could turn the whole debate around. On one hand we have a less skilled opponent with a longsword and a very skilled fencer with a katana.
The fact that I was able to match his blows and hit him at all means the longsword is certainly more advantageous, so I do have to dismiss the "advantage is situational" here. Usually when we spar with longswords the score would be more like 3 or 4 for me and 10 for him. Note that we are not even using thrusts. If I was allowed to thrusts the favor would tilt much more in the longsword favor.
On the other hand, the more skilled fencer using a weapon much shorter than he is used to, with many features missing (no crossguard, no pommels) were able to dish in very nice strikes. Most of his strikes are head strikes, and damn good ones. While most of my hits are grazes/nicks on the arms/hands. If I give him the katana for a few more lessons I'm sure he would be much better at it.
So... we could argue this both ways, and still ends up at "it all depends on the skills of the users"
Thoughts? Comments?
Will keep this up and let you guys know.
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Post by zabazagobo on Jul 16, 2019 3:25:52 GMT
Very, very nice follow-up. Enjoyed the humor of who was wearing what for this video as well. It's great that you've been involved with such a great group of practitioners to study with- that's a huge treat. It's clear you've gotten some good experience under your belt as your rhythm is quite nice. Also fun to note, as was brought up in this thread if I recall correctly, that in this video where the practitioner inexperienced with katana used it rather efficiently a fair pitch is made for the universality of the body mechanics involved.
This video does support my assertion that with aggressive techniques and spatial manipulation (not to mention the exact sorts of counters on display here) katana are not as s.o.l. against a longsword as some like to describe. Same goes for shorter weapons against rapier; simply because one has reach doesn't matter if the opponent closes in and the advantage is eliminated. Many of the maneuvers demonstrated in this footage are concordant with other examples I've seen over the years. So that was a fun bit of my katana enthusiast self feeling a tad confirmation bias-y.
However, where the huge caveat comes in is...no thrusting. I've always found that to be one of the absolute best advantages of the longsword over a katana in that it follows a similar principle to rapier in that the speed is increased by closing distance faster with a very accurate entry. Without thrusts in the mix, there's some useful considerations missing here. Perhaps for a Meyer/German tradition where, much like with many Japanese traditions, cuts are emphasized more it's fair game. What was the rationale for no thrusts by the way? Just curious
Again, thanks for posting your new findings on the subject. Look forward to reading/seeing what comes next, always a fun time
What have you been trying for breathing exercises? As for footwork, have you tried something like tai chi? Flexing out the legs regularly does wonders for the sort of side stepping you describe. I'm awful at doing anything other than swordsmanship regularly, but when I do I'm much more limber
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jul 16, 2019 9:59:25 GMT
So far, so good. Two main points: 1. Use more varied combinations. A lot of your attacks were single moves, or two move combinations, with both beign cuts to almost the same target. OK, your rules had "no thrusts", so cut-thrust and thrust-cut combinations were out of the game, but at least you could change the angles of your attacks more in your combinations. 2. Control distance better. You're being hit in the head because you're delivering your head into your opponent's reach. Don't just go in and stay there. Go in, strike, and get out. Go in, feint, strike, get out. Feint going in to commit your opponent to closing, and then stay where you are (out of his reach) and strike. As your opponent counters, move back out of his reach and slice across his thighs (etc.).
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Post by Dalaran1991 on Jul 16, 2019 10:04:05 GMT
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Post by Dalaran1991 on Jul 16, 2019 10:10:24 GMT
So far, so good. Two main points: 1. Use more varied combinations. A lot of your attacks were single moves, or two move combinations, with both beign cuts to almost the same target. OK, your rules had "no thrusts", so cut-thrust and thrust-cut combinations were out of the game, but at least you could change the angles of your attacks more in your combinations. 2. Control distance better. You're being hit in the head because you're delivering your head into your opponent's reach. Don't just go in and stay there. Go in, strike, and get out. Go in, feint, strike, get out. Feint going in to commit your opponent to closing, and then stay where you are (out of his reach) and strike. As your opponent counters, move back out of his reach and slice across his thighs (etc.). Thanks for this man. Looking back at the video I'm pretty appalled, I did exactly the same thing every freaking time... Will put in more different angles attacks in my drills.
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