|
Post by Cosmoline on Apr 10, 2018 18:51:11 GMT
Howdy! The examples I see of zwerchau seem to be striking with the true edge (after flipping the sword over in what appears to be a superfluous gesture), I may be looking at poor or incorrect references though. I must be missing something, there's no reason that I can think of why a katana could not cut to the right or left side of someone's head. You can think of it as a right shoulder guard, it can be on either side. It's a posture, like most anything it can be used offensively or defensively. You wouldn't have to retreat at all, you could even enter in as you clear the centerline - just don't impale yourself as you close! The more I look at duplieren the more suspicious I get of it. I'm going to have to look harder for better examples, I'm not seeing a decisive attack there, but I'm seeing a huge upper quadrant opening. My general starting assumption is that Old Masters weren't dumb, so I'm going to have to look more there. You don't have to wait out longpoint, a nice long sword held out at extension is a beautiful gift wrapped package for an offline beat. True/long/short/false gets really confusing with medieval swords. It gets a lot easier in the Renaissance and early modern. And a strong argument can be made that we shouldn't even be using the concepts in earlier schools. I.33 never mentions it. But whatever you call them, both edges are used in these systems. So for the zwerch you start out with one edge towards the opponent in a vom tag or other guard. The edge you hit with after going to a thumb grip in the zwerch will be the "short" edge based on that alignment. ANd the next zwerch will be with the other edge. You see similar issues for any thumb-grip master cut from Liechtenauer, and it crops up in cuts in I.33 as well. And using that back edge is something you can only do if you have two edges. So literally the katana can't do it. To get the second cut you have to spin the blade around. It may be a minor advantage, but it's still an advantage. It allows a cut where you couldn't get one without an additional move using the katana. But thinking about this more, I think the longsword's biggest advantage comes in harness when it can become a ferocious pole arm, spear and grappling tool. The construction is simply superior for these uses than the kantana, which has little or no bashing ability and no crossguard as a force concentration device. IIRC the katana is pinned together, not peened. This brings me back to an old thought I had on this debate--that the real comparison should be between langes messer and katana. Both of these were EDC weapons that had peripheral battlefield use, both can be deployed in a single strike from the draw. Both are mostly a strong-edge weapon, though the messer has a small short edge hook on the back.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2018 19:17:53 GMT
What is the purpose of rotating the blade, if it just puts the second edge whete the first one already was? It seems unnecessary? Zwerch shows you can turn your blade over, I'm failing to see how that means the katana cannot likewise cut to either side of the head or upper opening. The longsword already spins the blade around, why is that ok but suddenly a problem for katana?
I can strike with a blunt mune and crack skulls all day long, I'm perfectly free to swing that baby in either direction.
Tsuka-ate works just fine, the longsword has no monopoly on being used for delivering strikes with the bottom of the handle.
|
|
|
Post by howler on Apr 10, 2018 20:10:41 GMT
Howdy! The examples I see of zwerchau seem to be striking with the true edge (after flipping the sword over in what appears to be a superfluous gesture), I may be looking at poor or incorrect references though. I must be missing something, there's no reason that I can think of why a katana could not cut to the right or left side of someone's head. You can think of it as a right shoulder guard, it can be on either side. It's a posture, like most anything it can be used offensively or defensively. You wouldn't have to retreat at all, you could even enter in as you clear the centerline - just don't impale yourself as you close! The more I look at duplieren the more suspicious I get of it. I'm going to have to look harder for better examples, I'm not seeing a decisive attack there, but I'm seeing a huge upper quadrant opening. My general starting assumption is that Old Masters weren't dumb, so I'm going to have to look more there. You don't have to wait out longpoint, a nice long sword held out at extension is a beautiful gift wrapped package for an offline beat. True/long/short/false gets really confusing with medieval swords. It gets a lot easier in the Renaissance and early modern. And a strong argument can be made that we shouldn't even be using the concepts in earlier schools. I.33 never mentions it. But whatever you call them, both edges are used in these systems. So for the zwerch you start out with one edge towards the opponent in a vom tag or other guard. The edge you hit with after going to a thumb grip in the zwerch will be the "short" edge based on that alignment. ANd the next zwerch will be with the other edge. You see similar issues for any thumb-grip master cut from Liechtenauer, and it crops up in cuts in I.33 as well. And using that back edge is something you can only do if you have two edges. So literally the katana can't do it. To get the second cut you have to spin the blade around. It may be a minor advantage, but it's still an advantage. It allows a cut where you couldn't get one without an additional move using the katana. But thinking about this more, I think the longsword's biggest advantage comes in harness when it can become a ferocious pole arm, spear and grappling tool. The construction is simply superior for these uses than the kantana, which has little or no bashing ability and no crossguard as a force concentration device. IIRC the katana is pinned together, not peened. This brings me back to an old thought I had on this debate--that the real comparison should be between langes messer and katana. Both of these were EDC weapons that had peripheral battlefield use, both can be deployed in a single strike from the draw. Both are mostly a strong-edge weapon, though the messer has a small short edge hook on the back. Yes, the longer, balanced, versatile blade with guard, when used as a binding, short spear/polearm/grappling tool. This is why well over 90% of the responses on this thread have been compelled to give the general nod to longsword.
|
|
|
Post by howler on Apr 10, 2018 20:22:08 GMT
What is the purpose of rotating the blade, if it just puts the second edge whete the first one already was? It seems unnecessary? Zwerch shows you can turn your blade over, I'm failing to see how that means the katana cannot likewise cut to either side of the head or upper opening. The longsword already spins the blade around, why is that ok but suddenly a problem for katana? I can strike with a blunt mune and crack skulls all day long, I'm perfectly free to swing that baby in either direction. Tsuka-ate works just fine, the longsword has no monopoly on being used for delivering strikes with the bottom of the handle. Significant difference between a cracking back cut with a squared or rounded back edge vs a cleaving/slicing back cut (sharpened) which cuts a few inches into a skull. And you would need significant force to do damage with the katana back edge in comparison to the longsword back edge. Now, a raking back cut where you can catch your adversary with the tip, the katana would do well, and maybe even better with the slight upward curve.
|
|
|
Post by coldnapalm on Apr 10, 2018 20:37:36 GMT
Odachi/O katana vs. katana would be an interesting thought experiment, but I assume that because the Japanese generally went with katana, that that would be the choice, as the bigger swords, like mountain swords, were more for specialized applications. Scholagladiatoria thought the virtues of the katana were due to it basically being a one handed sized sword made for two hands, giving it power and leverage. It would seem to me that the goofy balance alone vs longsword knocks odachi out of the competition. Actually Odachi and Okatana aren't that bad to swing around. I actually prefer Okatana personally over a katana...but than again, I use longswords one handed so it's pretty well established I go against the norm. Anyways, the balance isn't all that goofy. I still prefer longswords because of it's rather extensive advantages...but the point of this thread wasn't really what is better but more of what can I do with what I have...which is a katana user wanting to know how to beat longswords. And the method I mentioned does work reasonably well.
|
|
|
Post by howler on Apr 10, 2018 21:00:56 GMT
Odachi/O katana vs. katana would be an interesting thought experiment, but I assume that because the Japanese generally went with katana, that that would be the choice, as the bigger swords, like mountain swords, were more for specialized applications. Scholagladiatoria thought the virtues of the katana were due to it basically being a one handed sized sword made for two hands, giving it power and leverage. It would seem to me that the goofy balance alone vs longsword knocks odachi out of the competition. Actually Odachi and Okatana aren't that bad to swing around. I actually prefer Okatana personally over a katana...but than again, I use longswords one handed so it's pretty well established I go against the norm. Anyways, the balance isn't all that goofy. I still prefer longswords because of it's rather extensive advantages...but the point of this thread wasn't really what is better but more of what can I do with what I have...which is a katana user wanting to know how to beat longswords. And the method I mentioned does work reasonably well. Yes, I should specify that I only mentioned the goofy balance in comparison to longsword, not that certain longer katana would be bad to use vs many other options. If you both favor and practice (which I believe is Jon's primary contention) at certain things (even duel wielding), particularly if your a bigger, beefy dude, you can become very formidable, and your very novelty can be a challenge in and of itself. Though you do prefer (and would be most deadly with) longswords.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2018 2:41:17 GMT
If you think I'm wrong, that's ok. Screw me, get the longest sword you can manage. I just don't see the differences as being advantages or detriments, they're just differences. We, the person with the sword in hand, are more of a limiting factor.
Thread was started Aug 21, 2016 , I wonder if the guy got anything useful out of it.
|
|
|
Post by howler on Apr 12, 2018 3:56:42 GMT
If you think I'm wrong, that's ok. Screw me, get the longest sword you can manage. I just don't see the differences as being advantages or detriments, they're just differences. We, the person with the sword in hand, are more of a limiting factor. Thread was started Aug 21, 2016 , I wonder if the guy got anything useful out of it. No doubt sword wielder is most important factor, though sword differences, at some point, can become advantageous or detrimental (the only thing I disagree with some people on who say no difference AT ALL...preposterous). Otherwise, there would be no evolution in size, shape, etc...as seen in various blade cultures throughout history and everyone would be dueling and fighting with short steak knives...no advantage in making them longer. Now, one could say, Jon, that they believed that advantage/detriment (whatever it was) to be minimal, as level of effect is rather the question. Another thing to ask is at what point you believed it would make a difference (pencil vs longsword/katana vs steak knife).
|
|
|
Post by howler on Apr 22, 2018 21:26:29 GMT
Thread was started Aug 21, 2016 , I wonder if the guy got anything useful out of it. He said he had problems finishing the strike after entering outside his sword, due to the opponent’s crossguard (page 1, video around 2:22). If he already couId make it this far, imo he should move on further towards the opponent and manipulate his strukture, using one of his arms which he would need to release from the tsuka. Once the opponent is offbalancened, this minimizes the risk of a counter cut. For example he could pull (using his right hand) or push (using his left) the opponent’s arms towards his own right hip and then move on with a left slice to the neck (quickest option), a stab or a right hand oberhau (slowest option). He also could go with Musashi Myamoto's advise and push into him with the body (at the right shoulder area), which is even simpler, and then (perhaps after having threatened the face with the kashira) come down with a two handed oberhau. Speaking of potential can of worms, Markus (notice I'm tactically placing the blame for this question on YOU ), you actually pointed out some things on another thread (Windlass XIV vs. Battlecry Agincourt) that leads us (or me, at any rate) to an intriguing question. How would katana fare against the Battlecry Agincourt? Remember, the Agincourt is now roughly the same size as the katana and basically two handed, so you lose reach advantage. Would blade balance, double edge, guard potentiall advantages still be enough to overcome Katana strengths after losing that reach advantage?
|
|
|
Post by howler on Apr 22, 2018 23:51:00 GMT
Speaking of potential can of worms, Markus (notice I'm tactically placing the blame for this question on YOU ), you actually pointed out some things on another thread (Windlass XIV vs. Battlecry Agincourt) that leads us (or me, at any rate) to an intriguing question. How would katana fare against the Battlecry Agincourt? Remember, the Agincourt is now roughly the same size as the katana and basically two handed, so you lose reach advantage. Would blade balance, double edge, guard potentiall advantages still be enough to overcome Katana strengths after losing that reach advantage? Lol, that`s not fair You do know that I like sissy swords Sissy would be those latter day court/dress swords, basically made for fashion with rudimentary (and sometimes none at all) capability/functionality.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2018 0:39:24 GMT
I am a devoted fan of substantial feeling swords / weapons. The featherweight lightsaber thing never did it for me but we all have our individual preferences and proclivities.
The best thing is to figure out what you work best with and what works in accordance with your tastes and preferences and work as hard as you can on taking it as far as you can go. Being mentally physically and emotionally aligned with your weapon and fighting system is worth so much more than six to eight inches of reach.
|
|
|
Post by howler on Apr 23, 2018 1:03:08 GMT
I am a devoted fan of substantial feeling swords / weapons. The featherweight lightsaber thing never did it for me but we all have our individual preferences and proclivities. The best thing is to figure out what you work best with and what works in accordance with your tastes and preferences and work as hard as you can on taking it as far as you can go. Being mentally physically and emotionally aligned with your weapon and fighting system is worth so much more than six to eight inches of reach. That's the truth. Was about to crack a "that's what she said" joke...but I'd NEVER do that.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2018 1:14:41 GMT
There's never a bad time for a "that's what she said" XD
|
|
|
Post by howler on Apr 23, 2018 1:52:49 GMT
There's never a bad time for a "that's what she said" XD If I were a politician...THAT would be my slogan, to make a world where there is never a bad time to scream (along with Howard Beal's "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore") "that's what she said". I'd probably go down in flames, but it would be worth it, as the concession party would be a wing ding, what with the fringe element naturally the bulk of the crowd.
|
|
|
Post by Jordan Williams on Apr 23, 2018 6:55:41 GMT
When you think about it, take away the fancy hilt and the smallsword really becomes quite scary. 100% made for fatal wounds, all serious business at least for the fighting smallswords.
|
|
|
Post by Hrimnir on Apr 23, 2018 7:26:29 GMT
So i have this theory that this thread will still be going (somehow) after the inevitable heat death of the universe. Note, i'm not complaining, i'm just making a statement of fact ;-).
|
|
|
Post by howler on Apr 23, 2018 8:07:31 GMT
Sissy would be those latter day court/dress swords, basically made for fashion with rudimentary (and sometimes none at all) capability/functionality. Oh, I like smallswords, too (would love to see more well-made, affordable smallswords on the market, btw) - and like that you don't accept the "sissy" term for all of them (AFIK, you have a CS...) I share both yours and @jonfrances opinions. I think everybody likes weapons he can put trust in, and reach - while being important – isn’t (can`t) be the decisive factor, always. Everybody should find the tools that fit best to his style, mentality, goals, wants etc. And sometimes tools can teach us, too. Over time, I’ve come to like lighter, more nimble swords in general, and the Agincourt gives a robust construction on a well-thought out design, a very agile blade retaining the basic longsword characteristics (which you’ve pointed out) in a compact package, and while standing behind somewhat on the reach side (still being just long enough to stab directly from a bind vs. most opponents), it holds other advantages, too. Remember, smallswords (or at least the ones I'm thinking) which were used early on and at the height of real dueling are no court/dress swords which came later (fighting to "first blood" at best) and were often mere fashion accessories that wouldn't stand up to real use.
|
|
|
Post by howler on Apr 23, 2018 8:10:19 GMT
So i have this theory that this thread will still be going (somehow) after the inevitable heat death of the universe. Note, i'm not complaining, i'm just making a statement of fact ;-). Of course, we are talking Longsword vs Katana, the two darlings of the blade universe. When the red dwarfs and the last super massive black hole explodes into nothingness, there will still be those two swords...and the debate.
|
|
|
Post by elbrittania39 on Apr 23, 2018 9:06:55 GMT
The smallswords hate is very undeserved imo. Its basically a giant rondel dagger. A triangular edgeless spike made for efficiently impaling a person. I wouldnt want one on a battlefield, but for self defense you could do a lot worse.
Of course, true dress swords are a different story and there are plenty of garbage pinky thin "sabers" that probably would do less than a sturdy walking stick in a fight.
|
|
|
Post by howler on Apr 23, 2018 18:52:32 GMT
The smallswords hate is very undeserved imo. Its basically a giant rondel dagger. A triangular edgeless spike made for efficiently impaling a person. I wouldnt want one on a battlefield, but for self defense you could do a lot worse. Of course, true dress swords are a different story and there are plenty of garbage pinky thin "sabers" that probably would do less than a sturdy walking stick in a fight. Yup. At 22oz. the CS smallsword is a veritable gorilla (on the heavy side, historically), but 31" of stout blade that will not break and can do a very good job of blocking other weapons is a very dangerous thing and moves like a light saber by comparison.
|
|