pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jul 16, 2019 12:16:02 GMT
Thanks for sharing and the comments. I need to study that more.
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Post by zabazagobo on Jul 16, 2019 21:46:48 GMT
Totally fair points. I understand what you mean about smarting thrusts, brought back memories from a few years ago. Right side of my stomache just twitched in memory
It'll be interesting to see what develops as you continue to do this cross-style training. It's what I enjoy, by practicing with a variety of styles you really do learn more about each one. Of course, I really do need to spend more time with rapier, and even longsword, I spend a disproportionate amount of time with dual wielding katana shenanigans (although, to some credit, wakizashi have become more common).
Regarding the breathing and footwork, another shameless plug for 'zen martial arts' that focus a lot on maintaining calm and focus. Really helps in these situations. And it can really provoke your opponent to do something stupid seeing how calm you are. That calm stillness is infectious I've found and can wreck their rhythm and response accuracy. Timo had the right of it, by focusing on the breath work now you can later incorporate different strategies with greater success due to the increased calm and mental faculties. The nervous system can only take so much information before it overloads, so reducing the extraneous load will increase your action potency. But hey, it works for me so I'm unabashedly biased to this approach and recommending it haha
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Post by Jordan Williams on Jul 17, 2019 8:16:46 GMT
Got a cool update for you gents. As said, I quit Kenjutsu for HEMA for a while now. The HEMA family here is awesome and boasts some of Europe's and world's champions. Lucky Im based in Paris I guess. Summer training, and I just got a beater blunt katana for sparring full contact, was eager to put it into use. The best member of my club, a longswordman in the world's top 20 rankings, offer to use the katana against me using the longsword. Certainly gonna be an interesting match. This man has excellent techniques, footwork, endurance, on top of being a full head taller than me. He has never used the katana before but it is, after all, a two handed sword. I have some decent experience in general fencing, nowhere near competition level, but I'm familiar with both the longsword and the katana. Rules of engagement: NO THRUST, NO HANDS TO HANDS COMBAT. Otherwise all things permitted. The full vid: This sparring was one of the best I've ever done. Interestingly it confirms a lot of the consensus on this thread: 1) The longsword has excellent reach and can dictate the flow of the duel.I've always been in the "attack is the best defense" camp especially against a skilled opponent. Always pressing forward and utilize the greater reach of the longsword for quick combos I was able to score quite a few points, mostly in the hands and arms though. Real proud of my last hit, I was out of breath so I charge in crying "for the emperor" and landed a nice hit square in the ribs Banzai!!!! 2) Techniques, footwork and familiarity with the weapon makes up for a lot.In regards to point 1), despite having 40cm of reach advantage and being on the attack I could only score non-fatal hits except for the very last one where I got him square in the hips. He was really good at parrying most of my attacks, the only reason he took some hit was because he forgot the katana doesn't have a crossguard. 3) The katana might have a range disadvantage but you can make up for it by using counter-attacking and being very aggressive.You can see at 2:03 that was an excellent riposte, and very by-the-book from a kenjutsu standpoint. I took that blade full in the face and only thing I could think of was "damn that's some Procreateing beautiful hit". In this instance I also make the mistake of coming into the katana range where its signature windmill riposte is very deadly. Had my opponent been more aggressive with the katana and manage to get in close I was pretty sure the fight would have been a lot more one-sided. That would be pretty doable given he got very good footwork and stamina. Example at 3:03: nice step forward with a textbook cut right to the head. Contrary to popular belief the longsword is not anywhere slower than a katana. However I think the misconception arise from the conception of distance. If the katana is in a distance to hit the longswordman that means the longswordman is NOT in his optimal range. Where the katana can get a full swing in the longsword would have to do a bind (which I didn't) and even then the curve of the katana and the shorter length would make getting a riposte in possible. Assuming skilled user with footwork of course. Overall great experience. This kind of unequal arms contest is exactly I love the most about sword training. Learned a poo ton today from my partner despite the fact that he doesnt even do katana. Key takeaway for katana user: footwork, get in close range, use your counter attacks. Personal notes: -My breathing sucks big time. I tire way sooner than he does. -Footwork still needs work. Couldnt do any side stepping that is crucial in JSA. -Stance needs more work. Often Im unstable at the end of a combo making a counter/riposte impossible. Food for thoughts:This match up is very interesting and unique IMO. It could turn the whole debate around. On one hand we have a less skilled opponent with a longsword and a very skilled fencer with a katana. The fact that I was able to match his blows and hit him at all means the longsword is certainly more advantageous, so I do have to dismiss the "advantage is situational" here. Usually when we spar with longswords the score would be more like 3 or 4 for me and 10 for him. Note that we are not even using thrusts. If I was allowed to thrusts the favor would tilt much more in the longsword favor. On the other hand, the more skilled fencer using a weapon much shorter than he is used to, with many features missing (no crossguard, no pommels) were able to dish in very nice strikes. Most of his strikes are head strikes, and damn good ones. While most of my hits are grazes/nicks on the arms/hands. If I give him the katana for a few more lessons I'm sure he would be much better at it. So... we could argue this both ways, and still ends up at "it all depends on the skills of the users"Thoughts? Comments?Will keep this up and let you guys know. Some thoughts. Your opponents legs are quite open, and legs are always an easy target when you have more reach. His height makes your swords length a much lesser advantage than if you were equal in this regard, so it would be good of you to either make a lot of use of measure play or bindwork. No shame in arm and hand hits. Can't hold a sword if you don't have a hand. It looks like you're relying a lot on first intent strikes and most from the same general area. This makes your movement very predictable and gives your opponent a fairly easy idea of how and when to riposte. Try to vary what you do, use upwards as well as downward strikes, and if your opponent is retreating be careful of his counter charge. You can also use this to your own advantage. Make your charge predictable and then cut them off when they become used to it. Let them attack first as well sometimes. It's not bad to be a defensive fencer. The front foot holds the balance more often than not. If you press them the moment they take it off the ground you could very well force them into a bad position where they can't create measure quickly.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Jul 17, 2019 8:19:32 GMT
One more thing, the longsword is a cut and thrust weapon and by not allowing thrusts you rob yourself of basically 50% of its offensive and defensive potential and 50% of your potential strikes.
But otherwise it looks great.
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Post by markus313 on Jul 17, 2019 10:36:44 GMT
I've always been in the "attack is the best defense" camp especially against a skilled opponent. Always pressing forward and utilize the greater reach of the longsword for quick combos I was able to score quite a few points, mostly in the hands and arms though. Thoughts? Comments?I sincerely hope you don’t get this the wrong way, but I’d strongly second what others have already mentioned and that is to mind your distance. I see a lot of overextending from both of you, and pressing in straight on is extremely dangerous, especially as the shorter fighter. Now this is a trend seen with (interpretations of) the German systems, exaggerated by the rules common in modern sports play. By rushing in, often times you’re flat out giving the opponent the place to strike you, and it’s easy for him to uncross from your attempts for gaining control, having a shorter blade. A better tactic is to bait your opponent in and displace and/or counter-strike, imho – which should work quite well with a longer weapon, but is good advice regardless of reach, height and athleticism.
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Post by Dalaran1991 on Jul 17, 2019 12:19:05 GMT
jordan: thanks for the comments. It was a friendly sparring and since I have no legs protection we decided upper body only. Regarding the thrusts I already explained the rationale, a thrust fro, a katana is dangerous if it connects, so better take out thrusting from both sides. Still no excuse, 40cm of reach advantage is still a lot for cuts and slashs. markus: thanks for the comment. I know I do need a lot of work on my distance, and this is something our maestro told me all the time (including the varying your attacks everyone already said). In Europe HEMA/longsword takes a little bit too much influence from sports fencing for my liking, and we are all taught to do ridiculous lunges, foil style. Is it effective? Yes definitely if you pull it off right. Most of the time you just end up overextending like you pointed out. I do believe my opponent's footwork/distance is pretty much flawless though. He retreats and advance at a whim so charging in it's the only way I see this working out for me. He had trouble with the shorter katana so sometimes he overextends a bit, but if you look at 3:03 thats a perfectly executed yokomenuchi (strike to the head while stepping offline). I need to learn from him...
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Post by Dalaran1991 on Jul 17, 2019 12:24:58 GMT
About fencing defensively / taichi / jedi mind tricks to draw the opponents in:
I certainly see why some of you advocate that but aside from rare dueling situation I dont see how this works out.
-Assume you are more skilled, then attacking gives you the advantage of setting the initiative and overwhelm a less skilled opponent. -Assume you are less skilled. If you let a superior opponent sets the initiative you are deader than hell. By being aggressive at least you get to set the initiative and narrow the opponent's options. -Assume equal skills, it could work both ways.
I'm in the middle-intermediate range so in almost all fencing situation I just attack and it works for me. The other reason is that waiting/baiting makes me nervous. I know it's all about mind game, but there's just something honest and straightforward about charging in. Chivalry is not dead? :D
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Post by markus313 on Jul 17, 2019 15:00:11 GMT
About fencing defensively / taichi / jedi mind tricks to draw the opponents in: I certainly see why some of you advocate that but aside from rare dueling situation I dont see how this works out. -Assume you are more skilled, then attacking gives you the advantage of setting the initiative and overwhelm a less skilled opponent. -Assume you are less skilled. If you let a superior opponent sets the initiative you are deader than hell. By being aggressive at least you get to set the initiative and narrow the opponent's options. -Assume equal skills, it could work both ways. I'm in the middle-intermediate range so in almost all fencing situation I just attack and it works for me. The other reason is that waiting/baiting makes me nervous. I know it's all about mind game, but there's just something honest and straightforward about charging in. Chivalry is not dead? I honestly hope not to come across as trying to school anyone, but here is how I see it... Every attack sequence is dangerous, both to the attacked and the attacker. In reality, you wouldn’t know about the “skills” of your opponent. Rushing in can get you killed quickly, vs. the skilled and the ignorant, quite equally. So every attack made on you increases the chances for your opponent to get hurt, too. The more he tries to catch you the more he endangers himself also, which in turn increases your chances of survival - if you mind your distance. Distance is your friend and you should keep it (upon guard), and circular motion. And make your opponent respect your blows (admittedly a bit harder in all that gear). It will be a very different fight this way.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Jul 17, 2019 20:22:29 GMT
About fencing defensively / taichi / jedi mind tricks to draw the opponents in: I certainly see why some of you advocate that but aside from rare dueling situation I dont see how this works out. -Assume you are more skilled, then attacking gives you the advantage of setting the initiative and overwhelm a less skilled opponent. -Assume you are less skilled. If you let a superior opponent sets the initiative you are deader than hell. By being aggressive at least you get to set the initiative and narrow the opponent's options. -Assume equal skills, it could work both ways. I'm in the middle-intermediate range so in almost all fencing situation I just attack and it works for me. The other reason is that waiting/baiting makes me nervous. I know it's all about mind game, but there's just something honest and straightforward about charging in. Chivalry is not dead? As Markus alludes to, you shouldn't assume your opponents skill level. Ideally every fight in reality would be a new experience, and in practicing fencing you shouldn't go into a fight basing your moveset on previous assumptions. Don't think of or just throw aside defensive fencing as something frivolous like jedi mind tricks. Starting a fight defensively and not letting your opponent hit you in the first exchange lets you actually get an idea of how your opponent is going to fight. There's a lot more to fencing than just "rush in and hit them", and not actually letting your skills develop past that first exchange. You also allow your opponents to get really good at giving a riposte by just charging in, and then either getting hit or trying to strike out of measure. By sticking to only one tactic you cheat yourself of developing useful skills.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Jul 17, 2019 20:27:21 GMT
I've had some fencing matches over in literally the first tempo, and some last for multiple exchanges. One match even lasted around 3 minutes if I remember correctly. Varying your fighting style between aggression and defensiveness is not only good for skill development, but it also means your opponent won't be able to put you in a mental box as easily and predict your next movement.
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Post by zabazagobo on Jul 17, 2019 21:58:21 GMT
Jordan and Markus are spot on here. When you critique how HEMA in Europe caters to sport fencing, the technical shortcomings evident in the footage provide credence to your critique. Since you tend to rush in aggressively, as Markus noted, you tend to focus on attacking which leaves you open. As the sparring session went on your opponent was able to determine your rhythm and readily thwart your advances.
There's no such things as 'jedi mind tricks' in what I'm advising, but that's a funny way of framing it. I'm advising psychological domination of your opponent, but that can only be attained through physical and mental discipline. Hence why I pitch the more 'zen' martial arts as a nice supplement to what you are currently training. They focus on relaxation and facilitating automaticity in action. As you mentioned, if you are having trouble with regulating breathing, this can be attributed to a lack of control and calm. These sorts of practice correct this.
With regards to another 'jedi mind trick', try assuming a relaxed and inviting guard (perhaps Fior's Tutta di Ferro, Meyer's change or better yet a low/lazy vom tag or relaxed zornhut) and calmly walk towards your opponent at a slow, casual speed. The rest generally takes care of itself. This is an excellent way of ascertaining your opponents' mindset.
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Post by Cosmoline on Jul 17, 2019 22:05:34 GMT
The lack of workable sparring katanas is an issue that's come up before in the forum. At this point there are even sparring steel Chinese swords, so it could certainly be done.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Jul 17, 2019 22:17:21 GMT
The lack of workable sparring katanas is an issue that's come up before in the forum. At this point there are even sparring steel Chinese swords, so it could certainly be done. Castille makes one. It's pretty good, I've seen one of the early ones at an SCA event.
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Post by Dalaran1991 on Jul 17, 2019 23:15:14 GMT
Funny you mentioned that because my main discipline is Aikido. The hakama and black belt I wear is from that discipline. That is the most relaxed, mind over matter kind of martial arts you can do that still actually deals with confrontation. The irony is that I quit Aikido because I found it too new agey or gimmicky. You would love it though brother. The whole idea of aikido is to maintain an inviting guard or even no guard at all, wait for the opponent to deliver a decapitating strike, then execute your techniques. Is it beautiful? Yes. Is it good training both mental and physical? Yes. Does it work or makes sense? Hell naw because nobody attacks you like that. Of course there are different ways of interpreting the arts, but I left it to do kenjutsu and HEMA where people are more serious about getting hit in the face. The katana my partner was using, I just got it from this site: www.katanas-samurai.com/Katana-de-Combat-cbaaaakwa.aspA bit pricey but it's an acceptable price for the European market. I left a review on the page, but basically this thing is The Rock of all katanas. It is forged of 9260 spring steel, actually pretty rare on the EU market. I've never held a katana that is so well constructed. The whole thing feels like a solid block. The Tsuba, Tsuka and Kashira feels like it's hammered shut. In short this thing will take most abuse you throw at it. Problem is that you trade solidity for weight... This thing is heavy. 1450gr or 3.2 pounds. Coupled with the fact that a katana is forward balanced means that this thing handled more like a warhammer rather than a slashing blade. Or I might just need to man up and buff up those shoulders :D One of my sparring partners got pretty mad sparring with me because he thinks it hits him too hard. But I took several hits in that video and Im ok, so it's workable. Any tips for handling a heavy katana gents? Might do a full review for it soon.
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Post by Cosmoline on Jul 17, 2019 23:40:42 GMT
If it's too dangerous to thrust with it, it isn't very good as a sparring sword. Not at full force anyway.
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Post by zabazagobo on Jul 18, 2019 0:00:29 GMT
Understand your views on aikido. Ju-jutsu is its more successful cousin Ever checked out Realistic Sparring Weapons? They might be worth nabbing based on your criteria. Flexible tips too, so thrusts won't smart as much. Ask Lancelot Chan about them, he's a nice guy. www.rsw.com.hk/products.htm
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Post by Dalaran1991 on Jul 18, 2019 0:08:42 GMT
Understand your views on aikido. Ju-jutsu is its more successful cousin Ever checked out Realistic Sparring Weapons? They might be worth nabbing based on your criteria. Flexible tips too, so thrusts won't smart as much. Ask Lancelot Chan about them, he's a nice guy. www.rsw.com.hk/products.htmYeah Jujutsu is cool, my best bud does it. Might do it one day when I have the time. Not really looking for a steel alternative here. If I wanted to do non-steel we have black fencer nylon katana. Or weighted shinai. But nothing beats handling a real, live steel weapon. Feeling the solid tsuka in your hands and hearing steel on steel, music to my ears :D I started another thread about this sparring katana. I don't think there's ever such a thing as a sparring katana anyway. We're just trying to make do with what we can. A katana does NOT flex, and if it does it doesn't return to its original position like a straight blade, so it can never be used for full force thrust. Then again we rarely do full force anyway. You would need buhurt armor for that.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Jul 18, 2019 6:25:21 GMT
Understand your views on aikido. Ju-jutsu is its more successful cousin Ever checked out Realistic Sparring Weapons? They might be worth nabbing based on your criteria. Flexible tips too, so thrusts won't smart as much. Ask Lancelot Chan about them, he's a nice guy. www.rsw.com.hk/products.htmYeah Jujutsu is cool, my best bud does it. Might do it one day when I have the time. Not really looking for a steel alternative here. If I wanted to do non-steel we have black fencer nylon katana. Or weighted shinai. But nothing beats handling a real, live steel weapon. Feeling the solid tsuka in your hands and hearing steel on steel, music to my ears I started another thread about this sparring katana. I don't think there's ever such a thing as a sparring katana anyway. We're just trying to make do with what we can. A katana does NOT flex, and if it does it doesn't return to its original position like a straight blade, so it can never be used for full force thrust. Then again we rarely do full force anyway. You would need buhurt armor for that. Castille makes one. castillearmory.com/product/build-your-own-katana/
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Post by markus313 on Jul 19, 2019 22:57:10 GMT
(...) When you critique how HEMA in Europe caters to sport fencing, the technical shortcomings evident in the footage provide credence to your critique. (...) That’s a large part of what makes me suspicious towards common HEMA. No respect for a sharp edge or the own life. Little if any regard for the quality of the blow. No fear of the afterblow or double hits. Too much gear. Or too little gear and too restrictive striking power. And that’s why I like them soft-top trainers. Though they’re not really dangerous, people still don’t like to get hit by one – wearing no more than protective goggles.
Not to speak of silly scoring systems… We need a more realistic-competitive, and yet more cooperative-communicative approach!
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jul 20, 2019 1:02:52 GMT
I'm in the middle-intermediate range so in almost all fencing situation I just attack and it works for me. The other reason is that waiting/baiting makes me nervous. I know it's all about mind game, but there's just something honest and straightforward about charging in. Chivalry is not dead? :D Except in this case, it doesn't work for you. The problem with charging in is what the opponent does. Charging in can work well if the opponent always moves back. In this case, charging in can be the way you are most likely to close into effective range. However, if the opponent stays still, or worse, also moves in, you give up your advantage in reach. Losing that reach advantage isn't, in itself, so terrible, unless you end up to close to use your (long) weapon effectively, but why lose a significant advantage for no gain? If you're both out of reach, you are safe. No urgent action required - you can take you time about getting in. If your opponent backs off, they'll either run out of space as you back them against the fence/railing/bushes/trees or out-of-bounds, or they have to move faster, in a circle. No hurry - you'll get them eventually. Otherwise, the goal is to be at a distance such that you can hit your opponent, and your opponent can't reach you. This often means that your target of choice will be arms (or maybe thighs). The only trick is that you opponent won't like to be at that distance. If you opponent has any ambition of actually hitting you, they will try to close from this distance. This is your opportunity to decisively hit them. You can get a bit more time for this by backing off (but you can't do this indefinitely, so hit soon). Back off, feint high, and hit the thighs. Generally, as they close, it will be either disengage and hit, or feint and hit (depending on whether they start with blades engaged). For your first attack on them as they close, you should be safely out of reach. Make the attack something that they can't just move-and-avoid, but have to parry/block. As soon as they commit to that, change your attack - this is the real attack, that you should hit them with. One or two attacks, or a disengage and attack, while still being out of your opponent's reach is the luxury that you gain from having the longer weapon. If you give this up by just charging in against your shorter-weaponed opponent, why bother with a long weapon? No Jedi mind tricks needed. You opponent won't want to be where you can hit them, and they can't hit you. They'll either back off to stay further away, which is harmless to you (and eventually, you'll catch them as they're committing to moving to the side, and get into effective reach), or close in. Hitting them as they try to close is a key skill for using a longer weapon. It is profoundly unsafe to assume that your opponent will always cooperate and stay at your ideal distance, i.e., where they can't hit you (sometimes they do stay there - take advantage of it when it happens!).
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