Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2018 15:27:44 GMT
I don't know how your swordsmanship is, I might not be able to take you with three of my best friends.
|
|
|
Post by Cosmoline on Apr 9, 2018 16:33:23 GMT
I categorically deny and reject the notion that the longsword has any advantage over the katana. Advantages are situational and dependant on circumstances. Learn how to use your weapon and your body. The longsword offers some features the katana doesn't. A short edge, a longer crossguard, a weighted pommel and typically a bit of additional length for the same overall weight. Whether or not these features are *advantages* is entirely user-dependent. Well let's break it down to a specific scenario. The design of the longsword permits the use of covering blows and master cuts. How would a katana user respond to the zwerch, the zorn-ort, or duplieren? How would the katana user deal with a fencer who stays at longpoint? It's so easy to say you'll just bat the blade away and cut, but in real bouts that becomes extremely difficult to pull off. And what about blade-assisted wrestling? The longsword would appear to provide significant advantages as a wrestling lever since it's made for use in half sword or as a war hammer. From what I've seen from the respective traditions, the katana is absolutely superior in high speed mid measure attacks where the bind is avoided. It doesn't do as well if the longsword can bind it, or at either extended measure or wrestling measure. This gets back to the OP--you beat the longsword by not playing to its advantages. Avoid the bind or and situation where short edge or treadthrough attacks can be deployed. Rely on explosive mid-range attacks to the flanks or hands. Be where the longsword isn't, but draw him out by offering the blade for bind then pulling around and cutting.
|
|
|
Post by zabazagobo on Apr 9, 2018 18:50:24 GMT
The way I see it with the length component is its fairly similar to having rifles of different velocity. The rifle with the greatest kick to it has the initial advantage as it can shoot more accurately from a distance whereas once the other closes distance this advantage diminishes. I think Cosmoline has the right of it. It depends on what each swordsman does in the context, if the katana user focuses on range rather than closing in, he's likely to lose. If the longsword user lets the katana user enter, he'll have a rougher time unless he successfully grapples. If the katana user focuses on slashing while being in the 'sweet spot' of range described by others, that could end badly for the longsword user. The idea of 'pulling around and cutting' is exactly what I was thinking of, (I think, hard to be completely sure when communicating via text). Rotating the body and making use of footwork to keep the opponent off-point so as to cut successfully is the best method I think. A direct charge is likely to be more in the longsword's favor the way I see it. What's everyone else think? Is a direct assault inherently disadvantageous to the katana user against a longsword?
|
|
|
Post by howler on Apr 9, 2018 20:58:25 GMT
So you wouldn't consider the longer blade, two edges, more substantial hand protection, and a more substantial pommel to strike with to be advantages given fighters of equal skill? While I do agree that advantages are dependent on the circumstance, (for instance, in a one on one duel I wouldn't want to pick say, a dussack over a full sized sabre) I think it is a little off to say that there are no advantages present in the qualities mentioned. Correct. The length of my sword doesn't matter, I'll move into position to use it. I can track the same vectors with the back of the sword or just turn the blade around so having an edge on one side or the other doesn't matter. Hand protection isn't a big factor as I don't block with the guard or the tsuba; a round tsuba is 360 degrees of protection instead of a bit of steel sticking out in line with the edges. A kashira is more than sufficient to strike with. Two equal fighters don't exist. May as well envision two perfect spheres on an infinite flat plane. People have different physiologies, psychologies, experiences, preferences, so on. Two people can go to the same classes the same number of times and come away with very different levels of skill however you want to quantify it. I think your main overall point, Jon, that you attain competency with WHATEVER weapon you choose, which is indeed the most important consideration, cannot be overstated. I only use the equal fighters design for illustrative and comparative purposes as thought experiment (think Einstein...who wasn't on a rocket ship, though imagined such). Question for you: At what point would sword length matter? Would you REALLY literally not say there is virtue in choosing a 4' longsword over a steak knife or pencil?
|
|
|
Post by elbrittania39 on Apr 9, 2018 21:05:45 GMT
We all agree a master katana wielder will routinley thrash a novice longsworder, but that doesnt mean skill is the only factor.
There were reasons swords evolved to have certain traits, and to say that those traits are totally and utterly irrelevant seems to fly in the face of all of history and all of martial arts.
|
|
|
Post by zabazagobo on Apr 9, 2018 21:29:53 GMT
We all agree a master katana wielder will routinley thrash a novice longsworder, but that doesnt mean skill is the only factor. There were reasons swords evolved to have certain traits, and to say that those traits are totally and utterly irrelevant seems to fly in the face of all of history and all of martial arts. I agree with this perspective. It can't be ignored that each weapon's design conveys strategic opportunities, and just ignoring their traits and focusing on expertise doesn't help solve the problem of what happens when they compete. There are definite advantages the longsword's design has against a katana, and that's partly why I argue the best option for the katana user would be to dual-wield. Otherwise...the longsword technically has an advantage thanks to several design factors. This returns to the idea that a katana user would have to emphasis a passing cut along the opponent rather than trying to land a direct strike: the reach advantage of the longsword is an intimidating factor that can't be ignored. I wonder how an o-katana or shorter odachi would play into this hypothetical as that would eliminate the reach advantage of the longsword against a standard length katana.
|
|
Zen_Hydra
Moderator
Born with a heart full of neutrality
Posts: 2,624
|
Post by Zen_Hydra on Apr 9, 2018 21:37:06 GMT
I think this conversation has drifted rather significantly from the original topic. All this talk of off-hand weapons and odachi is definitely out there in the weeds. If we are changing the weapon arrangement, why not just jump from a katana to a yari and call the issue resolved?
|
|
|
Post by howler on Apr 9, 2018 21:44:52 GMT
We all agree a master katana wielder will routinley thrash a novice longsworder, but that doesnt mean skill is the only factor. There were reasons swords evolved to have certain traits, and to say that those traits are totally and utterly irrelevant seems to fly in the face of all of history and all of martial arts. Yes, there must be general advantages and disadvantages given certain traits. Otherwise everyone would be carrying a "do it all" steak knife type blade on their side that chops wood, guts fish, gores wild boar, smites humans, cuts grass, shaves faces, etc...
|
|
|
Post by howler on Apr 9, 2018 21:51:17 GMT
We all agree a master katana wielder will routinley thrash a novice longsworder, but that doesnt mean skill is the only factor. There were reasons swords evolved to have certain traits, and to say that those traits are totally and utterly irrelevant seems to fly in the face of all of history and all of martial arts. I agree with this perspective. It can't be ignored that each weapon's design conveys strategic opportunities, and just ignoring their traits and focusing on expertise doesn't help solve the problem of what happens when they compete. There are definite advantages the longsword's design has against a katana, and that's partly why I argue the best option for the katana user would be to dual-wield. Otherwise...the longsword technically has an advantage thanks to several design factors. This returns to the idea that a katana user would have to emphasis a passing cut along the opponent rather than trying to land a direct strike: the reach advantage of the longsword is an intimidating factor that can't be ignored. I wonder how an o-katana or shorter odachi would play into this hypothetical as that would eliminate the reach advantage of the longsword against a standard length katana. Indeed, the nod to the longsword (general versatility) is probably due to its evolving over such a FEROCIOUS evolutionary blade period and over such a large region of Europe and elsewhere. On that vast battlefield it dealt with everything and was not isolated on a tiny island like Japan, and was not (mainly) restricted to ritualized duels that took a few moves in a few seconds and was designed for flesh on flesh.
|
|
|
Post by zabazagobo on Apr 9, 2018 21:57:31 GMT
I agree with this perspective. It can't be ignored that each weapon's design conveys strategic opportunities, and just ignoring their traits and focusing on expertise doesn't help solve the problem of what happens when they compete. There are definite advantages the longsword's design has against a katana, and that's partly why I argue the best option for the katana user would be to dual-wield. Otherwise...the longsword technically has an advantage thanks to several design factors. This returns to the idea that a katana user would have to emphasis a passing cut along the opponent rather than trying to land a direct strike: the reach advantage of the longsword is an intimidating factor that can't be ignored. I wonder how an o-katana or shorter odachi would play into this hypothetical as that would eliminate the reach advantage of the longsword against a standard length katana. Indeed, the nod to the longsword (general versatility) is probably due to its evolving over such a FEROCIOUS evolutionary blade period and over such a large region of Europe and elsewhere. On that vast battlefield it dealt with everything and was not isolated on a tiny island like Japan, and was not (mainly) restricted to ritualized duels that took a few moves in a few seconds and was designed for flesh on flesh. Exactly. It's really amazing how many different situations the design of a longsword had to accommodate. Makes one wonder what the design of the Japanese sword would have been like if it had to adapt to similar criteria (full plate armor, etc.). Maybe a TH spring steel blade in kissaki-moroha zukuri would have been the answer haha.
|
|
|
Post by howler on Apr 9, 2018 22:00:48 GMT
I think this conversation has drifted rather significantly from the original topic. All this talk of off-hand weapons and odachi is definitely out there in the weeds. If we are changing the weapon arrangement, why not just jump from a katana to a yari and call the issue resolved? Your correct that in the 32 pages of this thread all those combinations (which are very interesting, btw) have indeed been discussed. The standard katana is great due to its various characteristics (smaller size sword wielded in two hands for power). When you go odachi you create a different thing which is way heavy and unbalanced compared to similar sized longsword. All hail polearms/spears/rifle (discussed, also) which swords were mere side arms/handgun by comparison.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2018 23:31:42 GMT
I categorically deny and reject the notion that the longsword has any advantage over the katana. Advantages are situational and dependant on circumstances. Learn how to use your weapon and your body. The longsword offers some features the katana doesn't. A short edge, a longer crossguard, a weighted pommel and typically a bit of additional length for the same overall weight. Whether or not these features are *advantages* is entirely user-dependent. Well let's break it down to a specific scenario. The design of the longsword permits the use of covering blows and master cuts. How would a katana user respond to the zwerch, the zorn-ort, or duplieren? How would the katana user deal with a fencer who stays at longpoint? It's so easy to say you'll just bat the blade away and cut, but in real bouts that becomes extremely difficult to pull off. And what about blade-assisted wrestling? The longsword would appear to provide significant advantages as a wrestling lever since it's made for use in half sword or as a war hammer. From what I've seen from the respective traditions, the katana is absolutely superior in high speed mid measure attacks where the bind is avoided. It doesn't do as well if the longsword can bind it, or at either extended measure or wrestling measure. This gets back to the OP--you beat the longsword by not playing to its advantages. Avoid the bind or and situation where short edge or treadthrough attacks can be deployed. Rely on explosive mid-range attacks to the flanks or hands. Be where the longsword isn't, but draw him out by offering the blade for bind then pulling around and cutting. Thank you (and others) for patience today, very difficult to post from work. The zwerchau looks to me like a bog standard yokomen uchi (hit the side of the head). Interestingly enough zwechau seems to involve a 180 degree rotation of the longsword blade so it is kind of amusing to think people wouldn't have time to turn a single edged sword over or that it's some inefficient action don't have the same argument when this cut is brought up. In any event, there's a few ways to respond to that - void the cut with a step back, duck, assume hasso no kamae, hit the sword sharply from below so it kips up over the head... Zorn-ort, assume hasso no kamae on contact to take the thrust offline. Duplieren, there's a few things you can do. Lift the sword, catching the opponent's blade on the tsuba in exactly the same manner one would use the crossguard. Or press in strongly to the centerline as the duplierist attempts to circumnavigate the point of contact. Or invert the sword, raising the kashira so that the blade is pointing down and you've recovered the inside and closed the line. If the longsword stays in longpoint, then there's a stalemate. He can stay there all day long. He's gonna get tired holding that sword out at extension. :-) If we're doing blade assisted wrestling / leveraging, then we're well beyond the point where reach makes much difference. Be that as it may I've done a bit of work that involved trapping limbs with either the blade or the handle, and a good bit of disrupting balance and dropping the opponent with the sword in or out of the scabbard (generally with bokken for what should be fairly obvious reasons). This gets a little close to my personal taboo of not wanting to talk too closely about system specific work, if that feels like a copout I'll have to be content with conceding that particular point. I've done work that largely involved voiding and avoiding contact, but also quite a bit of blade-on-blade action that would not look too different from working from the bind (since that's what it is...), plenty of the swords we had to work with showed extensive scuffing and scraping, with more than a few rolled or chipped edges. There's nothing inherent to a katana that prevents it from working that way, they don't shatter like icicles just because they touch each other.
|
|
|
Post by Cosmoline on Apr 10, 2018 0:07:55 GMT
The zwerch is a German sword system response to an attack from the shoulder or over the head. The nuances are complex but essentially your horizontal line stops his vertical attack, while your short edge (ie the one opposite the one you started out pointing at him) is cutting his head. The initial one requires very little change of position though a movement to the right is advisable (and standard for GLS). If your opponent sees it in time, it can be stopped by a hard parry at the cost of losing your initiative, and one response to that is the 180 degree version with the long edge. I've been trained to forcibly punt the parrying blade with the crossguard before trying this second zwerch, but it is vulnerable to the counter-zwerch. I don't know that a counter-zwerch is possible with a katana. IIRC it's short edge. In any case the goal is to nail the opponent with the first strike by surprise. Isn't that just a right shoulder guard? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hass%C5%8D-no-kamaeIf so, you'd have to be retreating against the thrust which isn't going to work from what I can see. That makes it much easier though. It's the *weak* position that's dangerous to double against, not the strong one. A strong push will just allow the doubling blade to snap through, while catching the opponent's on the crossguard. The need to wait out the longpoint guard tends to underscore the length advantage. But again I would suggest making explosive attacks to the hands and forearms with the katana. A longsword at longpoint can be quick along its line but is often sluggish moving to a new center. Again, I wouldn't say that the longsword is a *better* sword, simply that it demonstrably offers several advantages once out of the scabbard. Whether or not those advantages are utilized is up to the person wielding it and entirely situational. I would think the biggest single advantage is its ability to be deployed in halfsword against armor or in wrestling or even inverted. Maybe there are comparable katana moves, but with no crossguard or pommel you can't bash with it very well ;-)
|
|
|
Post by howler on Apr 10, 2018 0:23:13 GMT
The longsword offers some features the katana doesn't. A short edge, a longer crossguard, a weighted pommel and typically a bit of additional length for the same overall weight. Whether or not these features are *advantages* is entirely user-dependent. Well let's break it down to a specific scenario. The design of the longsword permits the use of covering blows and master cuts. How would a katana user respond to the zwerch, the zorn-ort, or duplieren? How would the katana user deal with a fencer who stays at longpoint? It's so easy to say you'll just bat the blade away and cut, but in real bouts that becomes extremely difficult to pull off. And what about blade-assisted wrestling? The longsword would appear to provide significant advantages as a wrestling lever since it's made for use in half sword or as a war hammer. From what I've seen from the respective traditions, the katana is absolutely superior in high speed mid measure attacks where the bind is avoided. It doesn't do as well if the longsword can bind it, or at either extended measure or wrestling measure. This gets back to the OP--you beat the longsword by not playing to its advantages. Avoid the bind or and situation where short edge or treadthrough attacks can be deployed. Rely on explosive mid-range attacks to the flanks or hands. Be where the longsword isn't, but draw him out by offering the blade for bind then pulling around and cutting. Thank you (and others) for patience today, very difficult to post from work. The zwerchau looks to me like a bog standard yokomen uchi (hit the side of the head). Interestingly enough zwechau seems to involve a 180 degree rotation of the longsword blade so it is kind of amusing to think people wouldn't have time to turn a single edged sword over or that it's some inefficient action don't have the same argument when this cut is brought up. In any event, there's a few ways to respond to that - void the cut with a step back, duck, assume hasso no kamae, hit the sword sharply from below so it kips up over the head... Zorn-ort, assume hasso no kamae on contact to take the thrust offline. Duplieren, there's a few things you can do. Lift the sword, catching the opponent's blade on the tsuba in exactly the same manner one would use the crossguard. Or press in strongly to the centerline as the duplierist attempts to circumnavigate the point of contact. Or invert the sword, raising the kashira so that the blade is pointing down and you've recovered the inside and closed the line. If the longsword stays in longpoint, then there's a stalemate. He can stay there all day long. He's gonna get tired holding that sword out at extension. :-) If we're doing blade assisted wrestling / leveraging, then we're well beyond the point where reach makes much difference. Be that as it may I've done a bit of work that involved trapping limbs with either the blade or the handle, and a good bit of disrupting balance and dropping the opponent with the sword in or out of the scabbard (generally with bokken for what should be fairly obvious reasons). This gets a little close to my personal taboo of not wanting to talk too closely about system specific work, if that feels like a copout I'll have to be content with conceding that particular point. I've done work that largely involved voiding and avoiding contact, but also quite a bit of blade-on-blade action that would not look too different from working from the bind (since that's what it is...), plenty of the swords we had to work with showed extensive scuffing and scraping, with more than a few rolled or chipped edges. There's nothing inherent to a katana that prevents it from working that way, they don't shatter like icicles just because they touch each other. Reading this (and Cosmo), you guys probably could kill me with a pencil, regardless of what my mitts were holding.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2018 0:41:20 GMT
The zwerch is a German sword system response to an attack from the shoulder or over the head. The nuances are complex but essentially your horizontal line stops his vertical attack, while your short edge (ie the one opposite the one you started out pointing at him) is cutting his head. The initial one requires very little change of position though a movement to the right is advisable (and standard for GLS). If your opponent sees it in time, it can be stopped by a hard parry at the cost of losing your initiative, and one response to that is the 180 degree version with the long edge. I've been trained to forcibly punt the parrying blade with the crossguard before trying this second zwerch, but it is vulnerable to the counter-zwerch. I don't know that a counter-zwerch is possible with a katana. IIRC it's short edge. In any case the goal is to nail the opponent with the first strike by surprise. Isn't that just a right shoulder guard? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hass%C5%8D-no-kamaeIf so, you'd have to be retreating against the thrust which isn't going to work from what I can see. That makes it much easier though. It's the *weak* position that's dangerous to double against, not the strong one. A strong push will just allow the doubling blade to snap through, while catching the opponent's on the crossguard. The need to wait out the longpoint guard tends to underscore the length advantage. But again I would suggest making explosive attacks to the hands and forearms with the katana. A longsword at longpoint can be quick along its line but is often sluggish moving to a new center. Howdy! The examples I see of zwerchau seem to be striking with the true edge (after flipping the sword over in what appears to be a superfluous gesture), I may be looking at poor or incorrect references though. I must be missing something, there's no reason that I can think of why a katana could not cut to the right or left side of someone's head. You can think of it as a right shoulder guard, it can be on either side. It's a posture, like most anything it can be used offensively or defensively. You wouldn't have to retreat at all, you could even enter in as you clear the centerline - just don't impale yourself as you close! The more I look at duplieren the more suspicious I get of it. I'm going to have to look harder for better examples, I'm not seeing a decisive attack there, but I'm seeing a huge upper quadrant opening. My general starting assumption is that Old Masters weren't dumb, so I'm going to have to look more there. You don't have to wait out longpoint, a nice long sword held out at extension is a beautiful gift wrapped package for an offline beat.
|
|
|
Post by Jordan Williams on Apr 10, 2018 1:45:44 GMT
I don't know how your swordsmanship is, I might not be able to take you with three of my best friends. Irrelevant as we are not on the topic of who is better, but on the topic of which weapon offers advantages.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2018 2:33:56 GMT
I don't know how your swordsmanship is, I might not be able to take you with three of my best friends. Irrelevant as we are not on the topic of who is better, but on the topic of which weapon offers advantages. Fair enough, I have no idea if you would have an advantage over me with your cavalry sword if I had ginunting - which is also irrelevant as this is not the "Any tip to beat cavalry sword using the ginunting" thread. This is also the last tedious post I'll reply to as I'm afraid of watching this thread take a hard left after finally getting interesting again.
|
|
|
Post by Jordan Williams on Apr 10, 2018 4:46:31 GMT
Irrelevant as we are not on the topic of who is better, but on the topic of which weapon offers advantages. Fair enough, I have no idea if you would have an advantage over me with your cavalry sword if I had ginunting - which is also irrelevant as this is not the "Any tip to beat cavalry sword using the ginunting" thread. This is also the last tedious post I'll reply to as I'm afraid of watching this thread take a hard left after finally getting interesting again. That was an example to see if you really did think that range offers no advantage. Think less of me/you terms and more you're facing someone who is your equal and you get to choose which one. Because if the cross and length of the longsword provides no advantage - than certainly the bow and length of the sabre shouldn't either?
|
|
|
Post by Timo Nieminen on Apr 10, 2018 5:18:18 GMT
When you go odachi you create a different thing which is way heavy and unbalanced compared to similar sized longsword. Typically balanced differently from a longsword, but often lighter, with weight saved from having a light pommel cap instead of a heavy counterweight pommel. To pick a longsword-sized odachi/o-katana at hand: 1180g. Here's a Chinese antique, longsword-sized, 1286g. Of course, you can Chinese/Japanese-style at longsword sizes for around 2kg, by going for a wide beefy blade, but there are comparable European examples: wallacelive.wallacecollection.org/eMuseumPlus?service=ExternalInterface&module=collection&objectId=60970&viewType=detailView
|
|
|
Post by howler on Apr 10, 2018 6:29:06 GMT
When you go odachi you create a different thing which is way heavy and unbalanced compared to similar sized longsword. Typically balanced differently from a longsword, but often lighter, with weight saved from having a light pommel cap instead of a heavy counterweight pommel. To pick a longsword-sized odachi/o-katana at hand: 1180g. Here's a Chinese antique, longsword-sized, 1286g. Of course, you can Chinese/Japanese-style at longsword sizes for around 2kg, by going for a wide beefy blade, but there are comparable European examples: wallacelive.wallacecollection.org/eMuseumPlus?service=ExternalInterface&module=collection&objectId=60970&viewType=detailViewOdachi/O katana vs. katana would be an interesting thought experiment, but I assume that because the Japanese generally went with katana, that that would be the choice, as the bigger swords, like mountain swords, were more for specialized applications. Scholagladiatoria thought the virtues of the katana were due to it basically being a one handed sized sword made for two hands, giving it power and leverage. It would seem to me that the goofy balance alone vs longsword knocks odachi out of the competition.
|
|