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Post by Timo Nieminen on Aug 25, 2015 22:06:49 GMT
If I draw BACK with my blade after touching at longpoint, the other fellow can follow my blade in what we call nachreisen or traveling after. But my basic question remains, why wouldn't you just thrust if I come into thrusting range while drawing the blade back over my head and basically sticking my chest at the tip of your sword? Because, as I step forward and thrust, you step back (staying out of reach) and cut my forearms. But in kata, it can be just getting into position for the functional part. Likewise, the stops, pauses, withdraw-and-repeat. Some kata are connected strings of single attack and counter. Other kata have longer "fight" sequences within them, but usually still have connecting non-combative parts.
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Aug 25, 2015 22:43:11 GMT
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Post by Kiyoshi on Aug 25, 2015 22:43:11 GMT
I would like to point out that thrusting is actually pretty dangerous if you don't have just the right timing. A cut downward won't stop just because the guy has been stabbed. Second, it isn't as hard as you think to evade a thrust with good sabaki. After that, I'd like to echo that these are individual concepts taught in a form that are supposed to be practiced and understood until the ideas are ingrained unconsciously. It is difficult to ascertain the meaning of a form from an outside perspective. There probably won't be many good videos of JSA free sparring since it isn't normally shown at enbu and not all schools partake in its practice.
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Post by Cosmoline on Aug 25, 2015 22:50:00 GMT
I was thinking more along the lines of thrusting into a protected position such as ochs, but maybe the lack of a crossguard increases the hand exposure.
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Aug 25, 2015 22:57:33 GMT
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Post by Kiyoshi on Aug 25, 2015 22:57:33 GMT
I don't know what ochs is but generally it is frowned upon to do a committed thrust into someone in kamae. A good swordsman won't be in a kamae vulnerable to a thrust without knowing how to defend against one.
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Aug 26, 2015 2:40:06 GMT
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Post by Derzis on Aug 26, 2015 2:40:06 GMT
The only wrong one in sword fighting is the dead one. The one that thinks he knows everything is always the dead one. It was enough to let you think you have an easy fight when a guy is in wakigamae to have the surprise of your life. A fight is won using the surprise factor too. That drill teaches you this: when the opponent has no other blade as reference to calculate the distance, he is already in trouble. In Lancelot sparing he is using this a lot, hiding the length of the blade especially when his opponent has a shorter blade.
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Aug 26, 2015 2:59:17 GMT
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Post by Kiyoshi on Aug 26, 2015 2:59:17 GMT
I think it is probably best if we let them be. I don't think we would be able to change their mind any more than they would ours. Until they have a run in at a sparring session where they are defeated and can accept their loss and why, I doubt they will change their view.
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Post by Cosmoline on Aug 26, 2015 5:25:44 GMT
How can he not know the length of the blade? In the video the man drawing back with the blade over his head has just had it in longpoint. Also, what difference does blade length make if I'm sticking the sword in your head? I think the point is that the video isn't showing sparring, but a demonstration of kata. And I will certainly admit that they're beautifully done and show exceptional grace. I just don't quite get how that system works in fighting. I suspect that if these moves were being done in freeplay or sparring, they would be used differently. They'd have to be.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Aug 26, 2015 5:33:02 GMT
So I guess what I've been seeing are "kata" of various systems or two person kata drills. Are there any good examples of actual freeplay or sparring? Outside kendo, there isn't much. Many koryu JSA don't spar at all (as part of the official curriculum). Some do. Maniwa Nen Ryu spars AFAIK. Jikishinkage Ryu: Gendai JSA are more likely to spar: Toyama Ryu: Ishiyama Ryu: Other sparring gendai JSA include Kobu Shin Ryu and Bujinkan. More modern JSA sparring: You'll also see sparring with weapons other than sword. Two koryu I know of do significant sparring. Owari Kan-Ryu (sojutsu) has a big focus on sparring (and they will spar hard): Tendo Ryu (naginata) also spars: An interview where the role of shiai in training in Tendo Ryu is discussed: www.koryu.com/library/mskoss13.html
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Post by Cosmoline on Aug 26, 2015 5:37:26 GMT
Thanks Timo! There's some interesting stuff there.
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Post by jam on Aug 26, 2015 9:51:35 GMT
Cosmoline, you are not going to get to be fully satisfied with the answers to your questions, mainly because the answer to them lies in many years of training in a particular school.
What I will say though, is that when you watch an "enbu", which is an exhibition of a particular school, you are normally seeing a modified version, or sequence, of their kata. Kata are the means of transmitting the core principles of the school, their techniques and also to develop spirit and concentration.
If a kata takes 60 seconds to perform, the technical element will only be maybe one second of that kata. But within that 60 seconds the student will learn range, timing, concentration and lots of other concepts, that the english word for is no longer in use in western culture, as our non-pyro martial arts died off.
If it means anything to you, 1.33 is something that we did "study", and in fact the document is there and people can make up what they want to try to make the techniques work. Our group, with many years of koryu training, interpreted them very differently to how Roland's group does. It is of no surprise then that his stage fighting background is going to look so right to you, as stage fighting is really the only swordsmanship westerners have exposure to. Koryu, with it's roots in real fighting, looks "odd" to westerners. However, I feel that it would look very familiar to those who actually fought and taught in the western schools before they died off.
The truth is that there is very little in 1.33 to form a sword system with, as all the basics are missing. So some considerable training in an extant weapons art would be necessary to then go on to interpret the techniques - IMO. I certainly wouldn't call myself an expert in 1.33, and I really don't see how anyone could call themselves an expert, or derive expertise from the document that I have seen, that is how I feel about that document.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Aug 26, 2015 10:37:51 GMT
Koryu, with it's roots in real fighting, looks "odd" to westerners. However, I feel that it would look very familiar to those who actually fought and taught in the western schools before they died off. That isn't why koryu training looks odd to many Westerners. It's because the training methods are quite different to what they are used to. To a Westerner who is familiar with the point of two-person kata, what is odd? Even solo kata. Yes, for most Westerners, stage fighting is their main exposure to swordsmanship. Movies, mostly. But the same applies to Easterners, too. Westerners involved in WSA often have a broader background. But this is heavily influenced by sport fighting. Western sport training isn't kata-focussed, so koryu training can be somewhat foreign. But I don't see anything odd about the techniques. Mostly the same kind of techniques (or even the same techniques) as seen in WSA. (Also CSA, though those tend to showcase anti-spear technique in their kata.) Jigen Ryu is one that often looks odd to Westerners (and to Easterners): but some of their stuff just looks like traditional Western pell-work, such as near the start of: The viewer might like to think about the sequence at about 3.40 onwards (which finishes with some nice stuff which can also be seen in taiji forms; the takedown at 3.14 is even more taiji).
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Post by jam on Aug 26, 2015 10:49:39 GMT
Yep, jigen looks weird. I actually think ono ha itto looks perfectly normal - I appreciate their enbu's greatly. I really love their hallmark techniques for taking the centre - really difficult to pull off, even at enbu speed. WSA, HEMA etc has it's roots in stage fighting and reenactment. I don't believe people fought as they show it. But I am a layperson I admit.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Aug 26, 2015 10:51:23 GMT
I still don't see why Kono's stuff is obviously defective. At least some of the techniques he shows start with sword just crossing at the tip, kamae with swords parallel with body and pointed up have known utility in JSA (and for similar reasons to Kono's use of such). Yes, he isn't doing kata, but showing individual techniques. Kono comes from a solid JSA background, so I don't see why it would be WSA-bait.
If one of the anti-Kono people can say clearly why his techniques are so bad, it would be good. I don't understand the complaints about range. At the times noted above, tips of swords just cross, and he begins the (whole) technique. Why is this too close? Sure, he could start further away, and take an extra step. But why?
Kono does come across as iconoclastic, but that doesn't automatically make him wrong.
Here's another JSA clip from the Kono side of things. Kuroda, who has worked with Kono (see interview linked above).
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Post by jam on Aug 26, 2015 11:07:26 GMT
It's just my opinion that it relies on a weak adversary. I could, quite feasibly, be completely wrong. I also think they drop their hands too quickly whe they cut, losing range and velocity at the target point.
Edit: The later video that you post has some interesting techniques in it, we do use similar principles in our school, especially from hasso (sword by the ear) no kamae. It's the system itself that they have created seems to be lacking in the rigorousness of the kamae. Just IMO of course, as I have said I could be completely wrong, and a I am almost certainly partially wrong.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Aug 26, 2015 11:09:46 GMT
Yep, jigen looks weird. :) I actually think ono ha itto looks perfectly normal - I appreciate their enbu's greatly. I really love their hallmark techniques for taking the centre - really difficult to pull off, even at enbu speed. I think it's interesting (and educational) to look at different training techniques. In the end, the techniques are normal enough, IMO. I haven't looked so much at JSA enbu. Have looked more at polearm enbu. Lots of beautiful technique. Still trying to sort out if there is any real difference between Western, Japanese, Chinese (and Korean) spear technique. Would like to know more about Indian spear. WSA, HEMA etc has it's roots in stage fighting and reenactment. I don't believe people fought as they show it. But I am a layperson I admit. You're looking at the wrong WSA. Much WSA is heavily sportified, such as sport fencing. But it comes from smallsword, real duelling. Sabre was still being taught in armies into the 20th century - continuous tradition linking it to the battlefield. Medieval stuff is reconstructed from literature, and people's individual roots are mostly in sport fencing and in JSA. Earlier stuff is speculative. Stage fighting isn't martial arts. It might draw on martial arts, but it isn't martial. Yes, it's the primary influence on opinion of how swordfighting works for people who don't do armed martial arts. So what? The first task for WSA training is unlearning of lessons from stage fighting. Much of what re-enactors do is not WSA, but stage fighting - from a martial arts perspective, ignore. Yes, WSA competition can be excessively sportified, but this isn't a Western problem. Just look at kendo, sport naginata, sport kali/arnis/escrima (or much, much worse, most sport CSA). Sport problem, not Western problem.
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Post by Derzis on Aug 26, 2015 11:20:17 GMT
How can he not know the length of the blade? In the video the man drawing back with the blade over his head has just had it in longpoint. Also, what difference does blade length make if I'm sticking the sword in your head? I think the point is that the video isn't showing sparring, but a demonstration of kata. And I will certainly admit that they're beautifully done and show exceptional grace. I just don't quite get how that system works in fighting. I suspect that if these moves were being done in freeplay or sparring, they would be used differently. They'd have to be.
You say this because you can see both participants. In 1on1 situation is different. But as Kiyoshi said ..
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Post by jam on Aug 26, 2015 11:33:40 GMT
I haven't looked so much at JSA enbu. Have looked more at polearm enbu. Lots of beautiful technique. Still trying to sort out if there is any real difference between Western, Japanese, Chinese (and Korean) spear technique. Would like to know more about Indian spear. I love all forms of sword arts. I feel very privileged to train in the systems I train in, but I hope that I can also appreciate other systems. I enjoy speaking to those, like yourself, with broad tastes and open minds. There are many paths to the top of the mountain. I sometimes become slightly infuriated with some HEMA guys who have clearly not even taken the time to look at the extant sword systems before they head off on the road of inventing their own, based on an old manuscript and what "feels right". If there is one thing anyone that has properly learned an extant sword art will tell you, is that it does not initially "feel right" at all - quite the opposite in fact. In any case, that the do this is fine, but I can't help but laugh when they then dismiss the koryu as not being real enough. Really?
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Aug 26, 2015 13:16:56 GMT
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Post by Kiyoshi on Aug 26, 2015 13:16:56 GMT
I agree. Swordsmanship doesn't exactly feel the most natural... At first. Once you get it down though, it is hard for anything else to feel natural. This applies to both CSA and JSA that I have studied. They use your body's natural mechanics but learning mechanics that you don't know from everyday life can feel really weird. Bagua jian is a good example. With such a long sword and such "unnatural" footwork, it is no wonder why people have a hard time learning it. Once you take it slow and build up, it becomes easier and you can glide across the floor easily.
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Post by Cosmoline on Aug 26, 2015 17:18:31 GMT
It's not what I'm feeling, it's what I'm seeing. Sticking your chest out and stepping INTO longpoint while drawing back with your blade overhead is either a really amazing ploy or suicide. But I think the answer to my confusion is that they're not actually doing freeplay or sparring, but something else associated with JSA.
There are a lot of missing pieces particularly that early. And I agree nobody can call themselves a master of that system--probably ever. Roland certainly doesn't. It's something we're all exploring together. My questions with JSA are very fundamental and very specific. I've even cited exact portions of sample videos. But for the most part the answers I'm getting are broad and sweeping. The most specific answer I've gotten is that one would draw the sword back and step forward toward long point to hide damage to the blade and conceal the blade length. Those strike me as very dubious. Not based on Hollywood. In fact you can find people drawing back and stepping toward swords ALL THE TIME in Hollywood and stage fighting. It's called false time as you must know. It's stepping with your feet first, and losing the cover of your sword. So my question is why you'd ever do this, since it places your head and chest in direct threat and gives up the cover of your blade.
I think the best answer I've gotten so far is that what I'm seeing in JSA isn't sparring or freeplay as I understand it but an exploration of the kata. And ultimately the comparison is apples and oranges. So what I see as a suicidal false time attack is a demonstration of a technique in the language of that particular art.
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ZNKR Kata
Aug 26, 2015 17:42:49 GMT
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Post by Derzis on Aug 26, 2015 17:42:49 GMT
You sound like a troll right now. You want to understand join a club. You want to be an e-master, comment on youtube. How about pointing to us some very good wsa training drills instead commenting e-master?
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