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Post by Cosmoline on Aug 26, 2015 17:47:34 GMT
I am in no way a "troll." In fact I have been very specific with my questions, and I think the answer is I'm simply not understanding how JSA work. I'm reading the fights using a different language coming from a very different perspective.
I have, several times. But again I think it's apples and oranges. We approach things analytically, just as the sources did. Each piece is taken out, divided and subdivided. Then each piece is brought back in to reconstruct a kind of paradigm fight. A fight that will likely never unfold that way. It's the way western masters explained their art. And it is apparently very different from the way modern Japanese masters do. That's part of what I'm learning here.
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ZNKR Kata
Aug 26, 2015 17:55:04 GMT
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Post by Derzis on Aug 26, 2015 17:55:04 GMT
Not understanding is OK. Nobody needs to understand everything. When I said you are a karateka commenting on Kung-Fu I was right. And the rest of your answer is just again reinforcing that. The entire Japanese martial idea is " finish the job as quick as possible if you enter into the mele ". Empty handed or not. Maybe from here you will understand something... Or not
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Post by Cosmoline on Aug 26, 2015 17:58:36 GMT
I apologize if I've ruffled JSA feathers. That was not my intent. I have been trained both in sword fighting and in everything else to break a thing apart and question each aspect of it directly. I do appreciate the feedback, even if I challenge it. I challenge everything. Which is one reason I really like the western arts, even if the masters are all dead. There are no final answers. Just stacks of endless possibilities unfolding from basic premises.
The Japanese arts are a living tradition of great sophistication and elegance. But they seem to approach things differently.
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Aug 26, 2015 18:03:25 GMT
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Post by Derzis on Aug 26, 2015 18:03:25 GMT
You can't break a thing from YouTube. First you have to learn it how to do it, second comes with why? and breaking apart. And after you take what you have and go into the world. Is shu-ha-ri. Otherwise you will always be close but not cigar.
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Post by Kiyoshi on Aug 26, 2015 18:03:53 GMT
Your challenges are coming off as rather rude. There are many aspects of swordsmanship in any style that are difficult if not impossible to put into words. Best way to learn is hands on. I advise finding a competent (key word) JSA practitioner and having a training session or three with them. They might be able to help you understand. Giving a poetically painted scenario will not work. Timing, rhythm, and thinking on your feet will. Give any layperson a choreographed fight and they can figure out what could have been done to win. Block this, cut here, and you will win. Doing it is the real test.
Did you ever fantasize in your head fights as a kid? I did. When I did it, I always knew the exact motion to make against my imaginary foe, the exact cool moves, etc. But I would not have been able to do them in real life. Training is conditioning. JSA teaches these in a way that is probably foreign to you because you are not looking at things in a JSA perspective. Everything is painted purple when you are standing behind a purple window.
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Post by Cosmoline on Aug 26, 2015 18:11:38 GMT
Oh that describes every freeplay or sparring session I've had. I have a Plan A but it almost never works! I suspect that's universal. Still need to have a plan though, or it's even worse. I think the end goal must be the same--to win the sword fight. But there are different ways to go about this.
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Aug 26, 2015 18:14:24 GMT
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Post by Derzis on Aug 26, 2015 18:14:24 GMT
Oh that describes every freeplay or sparring session I've had. I have a Plan A but it almost never works! I suspect that's universal. Still need to have a plan though, or it's even worse. a Japanese Sensei will say forget plans and train in a way that you will naturally adapt to the situation. But this is not coming in a blink of the eye either. Why they say iai is Zen? Because nothing counts but "now". Westerners invented "expect the unexpected " and the Japanese are close to "expect nothing"
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Post by Google on Aug 26, 2015 20:07:17 GMT
I apologize if I've ruffled JSA feathers. That was not my intent. I have been trained both in sword fighting and in everything else to break a thing apart and question each aspect of it directly. I do appreciate the feedback, even if I challenge it. I challenge everything. Which is one reason I really like the western arts, even if the masters are all dead. There are no final answers. Just stacks of endless possibilities unfolding from basic premises. The Japanese arts are a living tradition of great sophistication and elegance. But they seem to approach things differently. Don't worry, some of us in the JSA just degrade to name calling and sarcastic remarks when their answers aren't really answering anything. I didn't read your sub-thread, but I find similarities between katori shinto ryu and western swordsmanship. Maybe you'd like to look there? Or maybe we can talk in PM, without people obviously getting all hurt when they try to justify themselves but fail in face of objective comments.
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Post by Derzis on Aug 26, 2015 20:28:12 GMT
Makes sense as a drill for martial practice purpose if you take out the music until 2:22. At least not countless swings against partner's sword, but minim effort for each attacker with the intention to take him out, not to make a pullover with him
And at the end, a passage from an interview with Yoshio Sugino explaining the essence of sword fighting Japanese way.
"As I said before, in Shinto-ryu one does not receive the other’s sword, the moment of receiving is left out and one just cuts directly. If one thinks of facing off in a real fight with live swords then perhaps they may understand. If one actually draws a live sword and thrusts it in front of the eyes the tip of the blade is very frightening. There one discovers how to get through this. In an actual fight there is no time to receive. One does not know how the opponent will change and come at you next. Therefore, we cut the opponent directly from a receiving posture."
Just a reminder: Sugino Sensei was not an iai sensei.
All interview is here: www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/interview-yoshio-sugino-katori-shinto/
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