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Post by Cosmoline on Aug 21, 2015 18:53:10 GMT
Well I got a bunch of different videos on those searches so I'm not really sure what to look at. Here, for example, is what I would point to as an example of the kind of light free play we're aiming for in our I.33 group:
And knowing very little about Japanese swordplay, I'm genuinely wondering what would be examples of good Japanese work with two people doing freeplay, sparring, demonstration or whatever. The one that looked interesting to me seems to be regarded as bad for some reason. So what's good? I'm not trolling, I'm really curious about it. And I suspect that we're just talking past each other because we're literally speaking different languages. Our systems tend to be highly analytical. That is, they break each piece out into small pieces, and start building the paradigm encounter piece by piece, then put the pieces together and make adjustments. The strength is it makes for highly logical swordplay where each position can be explained precisely. I can, for example, tell you what Roland and his opponent are doing at any point in the video there. The weakness to this approach is that it can become far too wooden and page-bound. And miss forest for trees. The Japanese systems seem to use a different kind of analysis based on form and tradition. Which is what I'm wondering about here. Do they, ultimately, lead to the same end results?
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Post by Kiyoshi on Aug 21, 2015 19:07:12 GMT
Here are some "real time" iaido techniques from mugai-ryu. I think that swordsmanship that we are discussing isn't really so different. Cuts and the like are due to having different swords, but things like spacing and timing are pretty universal. Spacing and timing, along with rhythm, are things that change mid-fight and must be learnt through experience.
The higher speed version is around the 2:00 mark.
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Post by Cosmoline on Aug 21, 2015 19:14:44 GMT
Thanks! That's just what I was looking for. And it does look remarkably similar to some moves using applied weakness.
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Post by Kiyoshi on Aug 21, 2015 19:19:58 GMT
That channel is only in Japanese but it contains a lot of those mini lessons along with enbu and the occasional cat video. Good channel.
Edit: Old documentary that shows Shinto-Ryu kumitachi. There are multiple parts if you are interested.
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Post by jam on Aug 25, 2015 7:27:11 GMT
I know very little about Japanese swordsmanship. I study German longsword and I.33 along with a bit of messer. That's why I'm asking--can you show me a video of the Japanese techniques done properly? Because as I said, the ones I've seen haven't been terribly impressive to me. So far you've just been broadly dismissive without citing any particular problem with any particular sequence in the video. Please include a link to a video you believe to be a good example. Otherwise we're just trading German for Japanese concepts back and forth. You seem determined to be vague, so please be SPECIFIC. That means citation to a video and a time stamp. As seen above, we may not even be discussing the same video. I'm talking about this one, as a basic demonstration of some basic cuts: It is of course artificial, and slow, and out of measure. It's a demonstration of the attacks alone, not the defenses and not all the elements of an encounter. But it shows some sword attacks I know to be valid, which reoccur in many of our systems in one form or another. Ok, I'll try to explain it a bit better. Every single technique in the video, (so the entire video ok?) relies on the applicant of the technique to be ALREADY in range of the opponent, and, for the opponent to have abandoned the control of that space ALREADY. The video offers no explanation as to why the opponent has already abandoned the space, it's just a basis for all the techniques in the video. This is why those snazzy little techniques appear to work to laypeople. If you separate the swordsmen by another one and half metres, and point the chudan at the opponent's throat, or where the opponent's throat will be if he tries to get into range, or in fact adopt any guard position other than pointing the swords at the sky, none of the techniques will work. You can see techniques driving a sword down the centre-line and taking control done properly in enbu from ono ha itto ryu kenjutsu, as that is a school with a long pedigree (400 or so years) of techniques where the centre-line is manipulated with such techniques. Here is an enbu.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Aug 25, 2015 7:59:58 GMT
Hmm. What do you consider "in range"? IMO, Kono starts out of range for the first 3 techniques; the opponent can't hit him without moving forwards. When he goes through the whole technique (rather than just a part of it), he steps forward to get into range. For the 1st technique, only getting close enough to cut the forearm.
3rd technique starts with the opponent's sword pointing at throat. The technique is specifically to move that sword out of the way.
The "lure an attack and counter" techniques start in range. So that the opponent can attempt to hit. These wouldn't work starting a metre further out, because the bait wouldn't be effective.
Kono's techniques do demand superior timing and judgement. Victory through skill, rather than athleticism.
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Post by jam on Aug 25, 2015 8:22:36 GMT
A strong chudan is pointed as I describe and the kissaki only, or first 2-3 inches touch/cross. Any closer is in range as the sword can be manipulated. Most ryu range themselves before practicing techniques. We can see that in the ono ha ito ryu enbu. You will see it in most kenjutsu (except Kono of course).
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Aug 25, 2015 9:33:20 GMT
Isn't that where some of these techniques start? See, e.g., the 1st at 0:11, and the 2nd at 1:02.
Yes, you can be vulnerable to manipulation of the sword if in closer. Which is one use of other kamae, to avoid that. In koryu demos, common to see other kamae in use when stuff start really close. Sensible.
Fighting in closer can work, even in middle guard vs middle guard. The opponent's sword restricting your sword can be a bigger problem than the risk of them manipulating yours (which can provide a good opening), so other guards/kamae can be good. Risk goes up, and opportunity goes up. If the increased opportunity is worth the increased risk, why not? Usually a bad idea unless you're better than your opponent. The boxing equivalent is good boxers fighting within punching distance with their hands down. Bad technique for a beginner, but works for them.
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Post by jam on Aug 25, 2015 10:25:23 GMT
To my eye they start about 1 metre to 1 1/2 metres too close for all the techniques compared to how close you would get to a koryu trained kenjutsuka in chudan no kamae.
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Post by Derzis on Aug 25, 2015 14:04:25 GMT
Kono's techniques do demand superior timing and judgement. Victory through skill, rather than athleticism. This is going beyond the reality of those vids. What is that "superior" and compared to what? A sword fight needs very little to end. I really did not get his tactical purpose for techniques he tries. He is researching old techniques the samurai was using on the battlefield but his targets are protected by armor. It doesn't make sense to me what he is doing with the stick from this point of view. For me those are not kata but tryouts of "what might work". While I understand the research per se, when I check his sword vids, that "superior judgement" is basically an expression of "sen no sen" (attack on attack) in sword fighting where each millisecond counts - and he is actually very close to what is done in other schools.
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Post by Cosmoline on Aug 25, 2015 20:09:25 GMT
In re this example, cited by Jam:
I will explain some of my confusion. At 1:05 the fighters advance at long point into measure. So far, so good. Then at 1:07 the fighter on the right draws BACK! This is something I've seen repeatedly in Japanese sword sparring. And in our methods, we train never to do this unless we're setting a trap of some sort. So the question I have is why doesn't the fighter on the left immediately thrust into a high ochs or other protected thrust into his face? Instead, he draws BACK to his right and tries a middle-slice which for some reason contacts while the other guy's oberhau doesn't. I can't tell from the angle exactly how he pulls this off.
OK, now at 1:20 the fighters are again at longpoint and again the gloved fighter pulls BACK while the other fellow just stays there, not thrusting or traveling after. Why? The Mr. Gloves launches what I consider a terrible false time attack, actually stepping with his body toward the sword at longpoint and drawing back even further with his. Instead of thrusting into him in pflug, the other fellow draws back with HIS blade and then makes a middle-cut to the belly. The whole thing looks wrong.
And again they go back to longpoint, and at 1:56 Mr. Gloves advances, again in false time moving in FRONT of his blade(!!) toward a low longpoint guard, but instead of launching out into his thrust from longpoint, the other fellow just shoots up into a very high kron, catches the blade on that dinky crossguard, and then pushes hard (?!). The gloved fighter doesn't yield to the pressure or grapple, but steps back (!!).
At 3:03 they are again at longpoint, and the fellow just cuts to the other guy's hands. That's fine, but it's not clear what the application is supposed to be. The other guy is just standing there, and would presumably be able to respond.
At 4:19 and 4:20 the fellow on the left comes in in high vom tag, while the other is at longpoint. What's surprising to my eye is that the fellow in high vom tag keeps on moving in with his chest leading, well within range of a thrust. But the guy in longpoint doesn't thrust, he waits for the oberhau and parries it, again without working the bind from there.
At 6:30 they do this kind of odd dance where they just touch blades from a stiff oberhau, but then they don't work the bind and don't try to wind for the center. They WITHDRAW and do it again, then withdraw and do it again. For us, withdrawal with body and blade is usually suicide, unless it's some kind of near-guard trap and that's not what I'm seeing here. It's profoundly risky to pull back with your blade and step back, as it cedes the center and invites traveling after. I'm not a "lay person," I'm someone who's been given some nice bruises for making this kind of mistake with longswords and S&B. So basically I'm still confused as to what's going on here. It is an ancient art, and one with a long living pedigree. So why does it come out looking so ... wrong?
It goes on from there, but is very typical of the Japanese sparring I've seen. There must be something I'm not understanding about the way they present their art.
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Aug 25, 2015 20:57:37 GMT
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Post by Derzis on Aug 25, 2015 20:57:37 GMT
Cosmoline, your entire post shows that looking to something is not equal with understanding it when you have 0 knowledge. What for you is draw back, for a JSA is a guard used to trap the guy in front. That guard is done with 3 things in mind: 1. Hide the length of the blade from the opponent (trap) 2. Hide any damage the blade took during the fight 3. Gives you options to cut from down-up, middle or up-down. Kata is not fighting. (trap) You are like a karateka who's judging Kung-fu. Always wrong.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Aug 25, 2015 21:21:43 GMT
What is "superior"? Less telegraphic, able to read the opponent better. There's an interesting interview with Kono in Aikido Journal (more properly, an interview with Kuroda, but Kono was with him), which makes Kono's approach clearer: www.dojoofthefourwinds.com/kuroda.htmlI think his tactical purpose is fine. The use of deception to win a fight faster. Feint and attack; and feint, control, and attack. Useful basic technique. His bait and counterattack is not what I'd call "basic", but has its tactical place. Unarmoured duel, not battlefield. I wouldn't call what he's doing kata. Just demonstrations of individual techniques.
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Post by Derzis on Aug 25, 2015 21:27:33 GMT
We can continue like this long time Timo. What is clear actually is this: there are no katas in that video. And if you want to push further, he is the 'attacker' in his vid, not the opponent. Is the single way that those exercises might work - explaining his choice for iaijutsu not kenjutsu. Taking the lead.
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Post by Cosmoline on Aug 25, 2015 21:27:29 GMT
The only wrong one in sword fighting is the dead one. If I enter measure leading with my chest against longpoint, while drawing my blade BACK behind my head, how can I possibly beat a simple thrust to my chest or head? Physics are physics. Regardless of style, the thrust from longpoint beats a cut from high vom tag unless you cut in true time and counter the longpoint. The sword in longpoint has already taken the center. You can either move around it, push it aside or otherwise deal with it. What you must not do is to step right toward it while moving your blade back over your head, though this appears to be what they are doing.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Aug 25, 2015 21:28:13 GMT
At 6:30 they do this kind of odd dance where they just touch blades from a stiff oberhau, but then they don't work the bind and don't try to wind for the center. They WITHDRAW and do it again, then withdraw and do it again. For us, withdrawal with body and blade is usually suicide, unless it's some kind of near-guard trap and that's not what I'm seeing here. Kata, not fighting. The purpose of kata is to teach something. As you see here, it isn't like a choreographed fight. Think of short segments of the kata as a two-person compliant drill.
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Post by Cosmoline on Aug 25, 2015 21:28:44 GMT
Ah, well that makes a lot more sense. Thank you Timo.
So I guess what I've been seeing are "kata" of various systems or two person kata drills. Are there any good examples of actual freeplay or sparring?
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Post by Derzis on Aug 25, 2015 21:41:06 GMT
Fine, but if I enter measure leading with my chest against longpoint, while drawing my blade BACK behind my head, how can I possibly beat a simple thrust to my chest or head? Physics are physics. Regardless of style, the thrust from longpoint beats a cut from high vom tag unless you cut in true time and counter the longpoint. The sword in longpoint has already taken the center. You can either move around it, push it aside or otherwise deal with it. What you must not do is to step right toward it while moving your blade back over your head, though this appears to be what they are doing. You have 2 swords touching at the kissaki level. Are you in the cutting range? No. You saw the guy advancing with his body and going in the cutting range while going in wakigamae? No. I see no point of your comment
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Post by Cosmoline on Aug 25, 2015 21:46:58 GMT
Once the swords are touching, even on the weak, you're in long measure. A thrust or cut with a step in true time can absolutely hit. Either side can overbind and thrust. If I draw BACK with my blade after touching at longpoint, the other fellow can follow my blade in what we call nachreisen or traveling after. But my basic question remains, why wouldn't you just thrust if I come into thrusting range while drawing the blade back over my head and basically sticking my chest at the tip of your sword?
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Post by Derzis on Aug 25, 2015 21:50:05 GMT
Up and above I said kata is not a fighting scenario. Trust with katana, not quite often as 1st option for attack. Take your longsword from your thinking system first, imagine just slashing as 99% of 1st technique and repeat the drill in your mind. PS You really think the almost half blade touching is equal with just point touching?
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