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Post by Google on Aug 12, 2015 20:06:55 GMT
This was a preparation for sandan. Even though I've stopped iaido a year ago, I remembered so thought I'd upload. I hope you enjoy.
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Post by The Lone Stranger on Aug 12, 2015 21:43:45 GMT
Not bad at all! Why did you stop?
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Post by LG Martial Arts on Aug 12, 2015 22:41:07 GMT
Very nice and smooth... the only thing I noticed is that you transitioned from one part of the kata to the next too quickly (not enough zanshin, which is just my opinion - could just be a difference in how our senseis taught us)... other than that, your technique is very good.
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Post by Google on Aug 13, 2015 4:16:57 GMT
I think it's a different in the teaching, but yeah I went a bit too fast here :) After sandan I started disagreeing with the line my sensei was taking, so I stopped. Currently I'm involved in Katori Shinto Ryu and much more satisfied!
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Post by Cosmoline on Aug 15, 2015 1:49:29 GMT
It looks beautiful, though as with a lot of this stuff from the Japanese arts I can't figure out where the imaginary opponent is supposed to be or what he's meant to be doing. Presumably back in the day this was for when you're having tea or otherwise not ready for combat and you can nail an assassin? But if the enemy is in measure in front of you, surely you'd never draw *back* with the sword and give up the center, because he could just travel after and stab you in the face or chest.
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Post by Google on Aug 15, 2015 10:19:27 GMT
First you need to remember te ZNKR kata are modern, developments, only meant to give the kendo practitioners how to handle a real swords. Your questions are better to be directed at koryu iai, the old arts, so I'll answer from that perspective-
It is meant for various surprise scemarios, where instant reaction is needed. The kata in my video are based on these. The 1st horizontal cut is to stall the opponent- I realize they are about to attack, and I put my sword between us. It gives me a few moments to analyze the situation. Drawing the sword up (is this what you meant by drawing up?) can easily be made into a block, and if needed, I can easily move out of the attackers line while cutting downward, not necessarily straight forward.
In other kata they attack from far, so I deflect and take advantage of momentum. Other times they are close, so I use other techniques. I can make a video if you'd like, it's really quite interesting.
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Post by Derzis on Aug 15, 2015 12:30:55 GMT
First you need to remember te ZNKR kata are modern, developments, only meant to give the kendo practitioners how to handle a real swords. I beg to differ. ZNKR kata were created with 1 reason: to make a level playing field for grading standards for different koryu practitioners. These katas have roots in koryu, and I am sure no sensei is saying "don't show seme, metsuke etc in ZNKR, keep them for koryu."
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Post by Google on Aug 15, 2015 16:48:08 GMT
First you need to remember te ZNKR kata are modern, developments, only meant to give the kendo practitioners how to handle a real swords. I beg to differ. ZNKR kata were created with 1 reason: to make a level playing field for grading standards for different koryu practitioners. These katas have roots in koryu, and I am sure no sensei is saying "don't show seme, metsuke etc in ZNKR, keep them for koryu." I've heard both reasons, and I need to check back exactly where it is written. However, it still does support the claim that modern znkr is not meant for actually fighting, as opposed to koryu. No one will say to keep metsuke etc. outside of seiteigata just like they won't keep it out of kendo (opposed to koryu kenjutsu)- it's still part of how to handle a real sword :)
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Post by Derzis on Aug 15, 2015 20:12:33 GMT
I am sure you learn to use half sword because it helps you in kendo. Or hitting in the wrist or face with the tsuka is just for learning how to use a sword in a kendo fighting. But you are right, if your sensei told you so, you just follow what he said. Please ignore me. PS But still I have a question: Keep metsuke? What is that "keep"?
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Post by Google on Aug 15, 2015 22:16:36 GMT
In the beginning there were only 7 kata, the rest were added through the years. I'm not sure why exactly it is even necessary for kendoka to train with a real sword, unless they want to preserve the understanding and feel of how it was used. In that sense, it's logical to show halfswording and hitting with tsuka :)
"To keep metsuke" was to your "keep them in koryu" phrasing.
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Post by Derzis on Aug 15, 2015 22:30:42 GMT
Kendo teaches you distance, timing and how to spot openings, create traps for the opponent etc - you can say kendo is teaching you to duel with a sword. It is somewhat true that now kendo is becoming stick fighting - but this is an other story. Kendo is one way of "what can happen once the sword is out". Nothing more, nothing less. Some kendoka practice iaido, some not. Seitei was not meant only for them
You said: Your questions are better to be directed at koryu iai Again I beg to differ. You can't have 2 measures when learning a sword kata - seitei or koryu. You might have different technical approaches (mae vs shohatto, ushiro vs atarito, ukenagashi vs ryuto, etc etc etc) but not the physical/mental approach. I was sarcastic there. My bad. It should be read as a whole whatever was said in between " ... "
You can't 'keep metsuke' in kendo since once the point was given, the guys are stopped and sent back to the starting points. It is a difference between 'metsuke' that you should do for your own sake - as long as you don't fight blindfolded - and 'keeping metsuke' which actually is part of doing something else.
PS Even h-levels are having SEITEI kata in their grading exam. And you can't say that some are kabuki and others are 'real deal'.
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Post by Google on Aug 16, 2015 11:07:52 GMT
All kendoka should practice kendo, and all iaidoka should practice kendo, imo. Again, I accept your statement znkr iai was created to have an equal platform, the two reasons stand together. I find the znkr iai not suitable for actual fighting, as I've learned from my sensei and assured by the highest ranking iaidoka in Europe, including hanshi that came for seminars. The requirements needed for proper execution of kata ("by the book", since there are actual official guideline books on this) are too different from real fighting. In koryu you don't have these problems.
Given the uber-ritualized nature of iaido today, I can definitely say that not all iaidoka were created equal. It is obvious while watching some of them.
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ZNKR Kata
Aug 16, 2015 17:57:37 GMT
via mobile
Post by Derzis on Aug 16, 2015 17:57:37 GMT
I know one single thing. When someone says that you don't need to see the teki in seitei but you will see it in koryu for me is wrong- doesn't matter what someone says. Katas are training tools not necessarily accurate fighting scenarios. Based on fighting understanding I found no flaws in seitei regarding their scenario. Doesn't matter how the cuts are linked they make sense. Maybe because the ones that created them used koryu as inspiration? Definitely yes. But again this is me.
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Post by Google on Aug 16, 2015 18:30:23 GMT
When did I say you don't need to see teki in znkr iai?
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Post by Derzis on Aug 16, 2015 20:44:18 GMT
In here: only meant to give the kendo practitioners how to handle a real swords. And all the answer gave to Cosmoline. But I was maybe wrong.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2015 23:27:22 GMT
I'll echo in that I don't see anything in this particular example that would prevent it from being combative training. Because the form was put together by people who knew what they were doing it will serve you equally as a vehicle for technical training or for the self improvement, "soul polishing" or whatever language offends you the least. The cool thing is you can have both if you want them, or focus on the aspect that appeals more to you without really losing anything because it is intertwined. Two sides of a coin.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2015 1:20:10 GMT
Jon, Derzis, it's nice to speculate, but Google is correct as is what his sensei told him.
I'm not going to bother copying slabs of text out of a book to cite an authoritative source so I'll supply a reference:
"Koryu Bujutsu, Classic Warrior Traditions of Japan", edited by Diane Skoss, chapter "The Koryu Experience" by Hunter B. Armstrong, section "Batto & Iaido", pages 31-36.
We all have opinions, coloured by our own personal biases, which is why we refer to reliable sources when we want to get to the truth of the matter. If we want to hang on to our opinions and speculate ad-infinitum, we are equally free to do so.
If anyone is serious about koryu, and are dedicating time and effort into learning these arts, then I recommend buying the three books in the series, it will settle any matters of contention about koryu, and it's a worthwhile investment in further understanding the background, history and context of the koryu.
"The mind of the beginner is empty, free of the habits of the expert, ready to accept, to doubt, open to all possibilities." — Shunryu Suzuki
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2015 1:53:15 GMT
What part of drawing a sword and pointing it at someone else is not combatively viable? Is there a magical shield around the kissaki?
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ZNKR Kata
Aug 17, 2015 4:01:58 GMT
via mobile
Post by Derzis on Aug 17, 2015 4:01:58 GMT
Jon, Derzis, it's nice to speculate, but Google is correct as is what his sensei told him. I'm not going to bother copying slabs of text out of a book to cite an authoritative source so I'll supply a reference: " Koryu Bujutsu, Classic Warrior Traditions of Japan", edited by Diane Skoss, chapter " The Koryu Experience" by Hunter B. Armstrong, section " Batto & Iaido", pages 31-36. We all have opinions, coloured by our own personal biases, which is why we refer to reliable sources when we want to get to the truth of the matter. If we want to hang on to our opinions and speculate ad-infinitum, we are equally free to do so. If anyone is serious about koryu, and are dedicating time and effort into learning these arts, then I recommend buying the three books in the series, it will settle any matters of contention about koryu, and it's a worthwhile investment in further understanding the background, history and context of the koryu. "The mind of the beginner is empty, free of the habits of the expert, ready to accept, to doubt, open to all possibilities." — Shunryu SuzukiThe last phrase explains you. Let the guys with 8th dan in the art to talk. I echoed what they say, not my opinions. But why am I not surprised you join in? You got your Jian? How it handles? Let iai out of books please. Unless you want to write a book about it.
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ZNKR Kata
Aug 17, 2015 4:14:32 GMT
via mobile
Post by Derzis on Aug 17, 2015 4:14:32 GMT
What part of drawing a sword and pointing it at someone else is not combatively viable? Is there a magical shield around the kissaki? Yes it is, because a book says so. And iai is the art of suiciding yourself for people with no guts since they cut their shadow - to give one example how a beginner mind can work, without restrictions....open to all possibilities. PS Blackthorn before reading those books, read the seitei katas explanation book - since I see that with all your iai experience you didn't. As a 7th Dan was saying when talking about seitei, iai is easy since is written and is hard because is written. A kata is an instrument of learning, but you don't train in making chips by making katas with how to cut tomatoes. And the ingredients are: a knife (katana) a potato (teki) and the recipe (situation). You learn those situations to know what is the most effective answer you (as a whole body-mental-sword) can use in a specific iai setup. If you try to hit the face of a guy with tsuka when the sword is already coming to you, it is your fault, nobody to blame there. But maybe you know better.
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