|
Post by Adrian Jordan on Aug 18, 2015 3:42:47 GMT
Please keep things civil and respectful. I realize that this is a conversation between grown adults, and that each of us have our own posting style, but keep the rules of the forum in mind. Barbed/sarcastic comments and back-handed complements are not in keeping with respectful discourse. Thank you.
|
|
|
ZNKR Kata
Aug 18, 2015 3:56:34 GMT
via mobile
Post by LG Martial Arts on Aug 18, 2015 3:56:34 GMT
As I've been taught by my sensei, ZNKR is not meant to be as combative as any koryu style simply because of the ZNKR system itself... I think you showed that clearly in the vid you posted and in your explanations. I will add (if it hasn't been done before - forgive me - haven't had a chance to read the whole thread) however, it can still be a deadly art by Iai practitioners. This is interesting. Seitei combative but not "that " combative. Thanks for the info. He tried to explain how to show the difference while doing kata? I will ask my sensei next class session.
|
|
|
Post by Google on Aug 18, 2015 8:21:44 GMT
Seriously? This is how znkr iai looks in Europe today, what "no"? I said before that some perform koryu similar to seitei. In koryu you have freedom to choose, but seitei is... seitei. You can't just choose the size of movements or speed. You say there are none, I say there are. Now what? Nothing, you just do what you have to do without bashing about something just because you had an argument with your old sensei. Repeat again? What you can chose in koryu and you can't in seitei? Timing you can change, nobody is watching how much pause you make the judges look for your depth in understanding the kata and its dynamics, at your technicality and so on not on 'flavor of the day'. But no need to answer to this. Enjoy your kenjutsu training :)
I repeat again- maybe in the U.S. you get to choose, but in EU the timing is not optional. Huge movements are mandatory. If you'd perform znkr iai like koryu, it would no longer be znkr iai. But I understand you sum it up to "me having arguments with sensei", so feel free to stop commenting if you think this is beneath you.
|
|
|
Post by Google on Aug 18, 2015 8:30:34 GMT
Jon, regarding if I think the 2008 video is different than Hakuo's- Of course it is! The timing is all different. As I stressed over and over, in the '08 video is a closer version of the way seitei is required to look. If yours looks the same, it is not combative as-is (while koryu can be). If it doesn't look the same, it is wrong technically, as shown in EU by all the high sensei there.
"You can change timing and size of movement" is the obvious answer, but you can't. znkr iai is seitei. It is standardized, not open to personal interpretation.
|
|
|
Post by jam on Aug 18, 2015 9:53:47 GMT
Great information! This is a debate on the western side as well of course. And one big question is what is "full speed"? Is it the kendo-like attacks we see in padded tournaments done at extreme velocity? I'm not so sure. Once you add sharps into the mix everything seems to change. The raw speed gives way to a measured caution and aggression is tempered by the desire to not die stupidly. I like this stuff. What style is this? This is I-just-made-this-$h1t-up-jutsu. There's not much good in the video IMO. What do you find so impressive about it?
|
|
|
Post by Derzis on Aug 18, 2015 11:21:33 GMT
Nothing, you just do what you have to do without bashing about something just because you had an argument with your old sensei. Repeat again? What you can chose in koryu and you can't in seitei? Timing you can change, nobody is watching how much pause you make the judges look for your depth in understanding the kata and its dynamics, at your technicality and so on not on 'flavor of the day'. But no need to answer to this. Enjoy your kenjutsu training :)
I repeat again- maybe in the U.S. you get to choose, but in EU the timing is not optional. Huge movements are mandatory. If you'd perform znkr iai like koryu, it would no longer be znkr iai. But I understand you sum it up to "me having arguments with sensei", so feel free to stop commenting if you think this is beneath you.
Is it you in the video? There is no difference between your kirioroshi done by you in seitei and koryu. I think that you stress too much on 'big cuts' that a sensei said just because he can see you can't touch your 'imaginary opponent' if your tsuka is touching your head when you do your cuts. But anyway, this subject is overly discussed and why there is a pause or not or why it is a change in rhythm or not your sensei should explain it and you should have an answer too. Otherwise is just kabuki.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2015 11:30:44 GMT
Jon, regarding if I think the 2008 video is different than Hakuo's- Of course it is! The timing is all different. As I stressed over and over, in the '08 video is a closer version of the way seitei is required to look. If yours looks the same, it is not combative as-is (while koryu can be). If it doesn't look the same, it is wrong technically, as shown in EU by all the high sensei there. "You can change timing and size of movement" is the obvious answer, but you can't. znkr iai is seitei. It is standardized, not open to personal interpretation. I will requote myself from six pages ago: "I'll echo in that I don't see anything in this particular example that would prevent it from being combative training." If the difference here is timing, then the movements themselves are not in dispute. If your only contention is the timing, then change the timing. Changing the timing wouldn't be ZNKR? OK, who cares? We are looking at movements, not the purity of a system in accordance with a subsection of it's practitioners.
|
|
|
Post by Derzis on Aug 18, 2015 11:34:03 GMT
This is interesting. Seitei combative but not "that " combative. Thanks for the info. He tried to explain how to show the difference while doing kata? I will ask my sensei next class session. :D Thanks, I am looking for the answer :)
|
|
|
Post by Google on Aug 18, 2015 11:39:53 GMT
Jon, regarding if I think the 2008 video is different than Hakuo's- Of course it is! The timing is all different. As I stressed over and over, in the '08 video is a closer version of the way seitei is required to look. If yours looks the same, it is not combative as-is (while koryu can be). If it doesn't look the same, it is wrong technically, as shown in EU by all the high sensei there. "You can change timing and size of movement" is the obvious answer, but you can't. znkr iai is seitei. It is standardized, not open to personal interpretation. I will requote myself from six pages ago: "I'll echo in that I don't see anything in this particular example that would prevent it from being combative training." If the difference here is timing, then the movements themselves are not in dispute. If your only contention is the timing, then change the timing. Changing the timing wouldn't be ZNKR? OK, who cares? We are looking at movements, not the purity of a system in accordance with a subsection of it's practitioners. Who cares about purity znkr iai? I do, since the whole point of creating it was to standardize the sword inside an organization. If you start changing seitei to your liking, you'll just get a koryu-like standardized system that doesn't standardize anything. You can't defend the seitei and then dismiss it when your point fails. Regarding you "not seeing anything...", I can't make you see then. I've explained over and over where are the differences, if you can't see them I can't say more.
|
|
|
Post by Google on Aug 18, 2015 11:46:49 GMT
I repeat again- maybe in the U.S. you get to choose, but in EU the timing is not optional. Huge movements are mandatory. If you'd perform znkr iai like koryu, it would no longer be znkr iai. But I understand you sum it up to "me having arguments with sensei", so feel free to stop commenting if you think this is beneath you.
Is it you in the video? There is no difference between your kirioroshi done by you in seitei and koryu. I think that you stress too much on 'big cuts' that a sensei said just because he can see you can't touch your 'imaginary opponent' if your tsuka is touching your head when you do your cuts. But anyway, this subject is overly discussed and why there is a pause or not or why it is a change in rhythm or not your sensei should explain it and you should have an answer too. Otherwise is just kabuki.
Yes, that is me. And if you do the same way in koryu, then your koryu is also impractical. And if you think I can't reach an opponent when the tsuka touch my head, think again. It is quite easy and more quick. The fact you bring my sensei into it instead of giving proper answers is derailing, evading and sometimes downright condescending. If you have no good answer for the long pauses in seitei, just say so. It's ok not to know.
|
|
|
ZNKR Kata
Aug 18, 2015 12:30:18 GMT
via mobile
Post by Derzis on Aug 18, 2015 12:30:18 GMT
Is it you in the video? There is no difference between your kirioroshi done by you in seitei and koryu. I think that you stress too much on 'big cuts' that a sensei said just because he can see you can't touch your 'imaginary opponent' if your tsuka is touching your head when you do your cuts. But anyway, this subject is overly discussed and why there is a pause or not or why it is a change in rhythm or not your sensei should explain it and you should have an answer too. Otherwise is just kabuki.
Yes, that is me. And if you do the same way in koryu, then your koryu is also impractical. And if you think I can't reach an opponent when the tsuka touch my head, think again. It is quite easy and more quick. The fact you bring my sensei into it instead of giving proper answers is derailing, evading and sometimes downright condescending. If you have no good answer for the long pauses in seitei, just say so. It's ok not to know. Forget me, I am not the one complaining that seitei is different than koryu but you. And from video both seitei and koryu done by you are the same. The comment regarding wrong or good is not the point here, but the way someone is showing them. You will hear nothing from me on this matter. Some want to put their vids for show off or genuine comments. Not my cup of tea, neither applauding or destroying. I bring the Sensei in discussion because he taught you iai and he is the guy who trained you until last year. A student is teacher creation until the moment he starts to find his own answers. You like it or not it is not my problem
|
|
|
Post by Google on Aug 18, 2015 12:49:53 GMT
I don't show koryu in the original video :) You bring my sensei into discussion because you have no good arguments yourself, so you evade discussion by referring me to a third side. Instead of that, why won't you refer to the problems I bring up? You think I've seen only one sensei? Don't you go to seminars and stages held by high ranking iaidoka? If no, you should. It will broaden up your horizons.
|
|
|
ZNKR Kata
Aug 18, 2015 12:51:06 GMT
via mobile
Post by Derzis on Aug 18, 2015 12:51:06 GMT
In this case you have no idea what you are doing in the last kata. 1 koryu kata is mandatory for 3rd Dan and it is there in your vid. I am out now, for good. Enjoy your kenjutsu
|
|
|
Post by jam on Aug 18, 2015 13:27:55 GMT
It's great to see shared interests bringing people together with a sense of comaraderie.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
ZNKR Kata
Aug 18, 2015 13:49:43 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2015 13:49:43 GMT
Yeah, this thread is absurd. If you don't pay attention to what your kata is teaching you then you're just wearing out the knees on your Hakama and the Ito on your tsuka.
But it's your Hakama and your tsuka so enjoy or not as you like.
|
|
|
Post by Cosmoline on Aug 18, 2015 16:52:44 GMT
I'll explain what I'm seeing, and maybe you can explain what you find objectionable:
--There are two people showing techniques, not just a guy cutting air. --First technique involves manipulation of the weak around the opponent's blade, instantly creating both cover and taking the center while repositioning his body for a direct thrust to the chest. It's subtle and interesting enough I intend to try it out next time I'm fiddling with longswords. Usually we bind first, then try the old slip-around if the bind is on the weak. But this would short-circuit the other fellow's fulen and, if you can pull it off, would be a game-ender. --I'm not as confident about the second permutation. It creates an exposure when he's pulling under the other blade, and I doubt I'm fast enough to pull it off. But I'm sure it works for him. Once he's up under the blade he has protection and a direct line of attack on a re-positioned center. --Third reminds me of a zornhau or zornort. Driving down into the blade to create an opening and take the center. Then it's a cut or thrust as needed. --Fourth is a wonderful hand cut, taking advantage of the other fellow's error in entering measure with his sword still in a vom tag type guard. He even knows to continue cutting down into the hand, though I would have stopped at chest level and pushed into him while cutting down on the hands. So often these hand hits are just snipes which would do little more than score the skin. As with some of the messer techniques I was doing this summer, it's best to keep your contact with the hand and drive down while cutting across the hand and into the chest. --There's even wrestling on the blade! Hell yeah! when was the last time I saw ringen am schwert in Japanese swordplay? It's well done, though I think he could improve it by using the katana's long handle as a messer-style lever and arm catcher. But he gets it done. --He seems to be re-positioning himself very artfully. It reminds me of the style we're exploring in I.33 right now. A subtle re-alignment of your torso with a little bit of a shuffle rather than a big side step. If done right it gives you a direct line of attack to his center while he's cutting at air. --He seems to understand that the sword provides cover and esp. when steel is used allows you to overbind and deflect. For example when he crosses the line and comes up on the camera-side of the opponent's blade, any attempt by the other guy to strike or thrust will be easily deflected. We do this all the time--though usually not while trying to cross the line. In our system, the response to this threat is to accept a bind and create cover, then perform either mutatio gladii, shield strike or move in to ringen. I don't know what they'd do with katana, but it would be interesting to see how he addresses it. --Overall, he seems to understand that this is about killing the other guy without dying, and he's using the wooden swords in a way that would work with real ones. He's not using binds as we do, but as I understand it binds were not preferred with katana for pretty obvious reasons (no crossguard, no short edge, no weighted pommel).
Basically, these all strike me as techniques that would work in a sword fight. Without meaning any insult, much of what I see in traditional Japanese and Chinese swordsmanship, and esp. in the sportified stuff, is either sword dancing or just flat-out suicidal. The idea that you're reconstructing a lethal martial art about sticking the other guy with a length of steel seems to have been lost in the shuffle of time and politics. Bring it back, and the techniques all get better. But, you know, don't actually kill each other ;-)
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
ZNKR Kata
Aug 18, 2015 17:09:54 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2015 17:09:54 GMT
It's about exploring the physical interactions between opposing forces, structures, and shapes- what you do with that is up to you. As you can see no one was killed during the demonstration.
any chance of seeing this split off to another thread?
|
|
|
Post by Cosmoline on Aug 18, 2015 17:22:18 GMT
I'll start a new thread on this. Interesting discussion!
|
|
|
Post by Google on Aug 18, 2015 22:24:02 GMT
What's absurd is that instead of giving proper arguments and defending them, you result to personal attacks and other irrelevant sayings. You think I haven't paid attention or understood what was taught to me? Why, because I disagree with your explanations (which you were unable to defend)?
And to the guy who thinks I performed koryu in my video- The four are seitei gata, the fifth is something I improvised on spot. Insulting my understanding is just condescending. I can be just as condescending towards you, but I have respect and can tolerate different opinions.
I see here two iaidoka who can't get fathom anything that conflicts with their opinions. Moderators, please lock this embarrassing example of "discussion".
|
|
|
Post by Derzis on Aug 18, 2015 23:55:13 GMT
Right, you invented something that was very close to tozume from Okuden. I should have paid attention more to what you were doing there but I did not cared that much. Whatever was not seitei, was enough to me. For the rest, it is your experience vs others. You will never convince me with your arguments and I will not convince you with mine. Too different experiences. One good thing happened at the end: when someone says on his title on youtube "name-of-the-country iaido" expect sometimes not really iaido, but inventions. And when you invent something, you will fall in the pattern of your way of doing things. That's why I don't pay attention to youtube iai unless I want to study how h-levels are doing things. You asked me about the pause. I am wondering what pause? There are no pauses during the kata. After nukitsuke might be a very short one since you cut the guy already, he is in panic mode and wounded - his temple or eyes are unexpectedly cut before he could get the sword out, no need to rush - his attack is ruined anyway. The single one I see is the one after you did the kiriotoshi. You went from a normal state to killing a guy. Your pulse went rocket in 10 seconds and you are pumped with adrenaline. That pause is to calm down, keeping your body language and your mental on 'ready' mode. You look down but not to your dead guy just because when you look down your peripheral vision will be fully engaged instead having your sight caught by a face or a detail from surroundings if you look straight - and you have an advantage since the possible opponent will think that if you don't look directly to him, he has a chance. You don't stay too much in that pause since normally you are not yet breathing, you are just expiring during the conflict. Just after your noto you empty your lungs and you can start breathing from your diaphragm again but still alert, not relaxed. But the breathing part comes later in the training when you will train to do the entire kata on one breath. You can dismiss this explanation or not, it is your call. These things you should have known from your sensei or from your thinking about what? and why? you do that. Or maybe he decided is not yet the time to tell you. Kata is just a training tool to understand things beyond the techniques that will help in real conflict. Nothing less nothing more. And now I am really out.
|
|