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Post by Derzis on Aug 17, 2015 23:37:31 GMT
So currently I see you all agree that znkr iai is a beginners tool for handling the sword, and that it's not combative if done at the same speed and big movements as taught. Wonderful! You started with koryu when training? I started with it. So, for me, koryu was the training tool, not Seitei. Seitei came after. Normally, during the class you will do both in same time - once you got the basics. And the Sensei will just remind you: "you pushed to center in shohatto", or "you kept the hand on the tsuka when backing up in seitei". These are the single observations a Sensei will do to a guy during the class regarding the difference between koryu and Seitei. "You mixed koryu in Seitei" (or vice-versa) from technical point of view. And nothing else.
Some Sensei keep koryu as a precious thing that little minions don't need to know until the Seitei is done properly. After they will decide who should learn koryu and not. I've met 3rd dan who never did koryu. This is another story. You need to start from somewhere, and some guys think that is easier to start with Seitei just because.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2015 23:46:02 GMT
Hey that first one seems familiar, seems like I've seen it before somewhere. Can't quite place it. Does it seem familiar to anyone else reading this thread?
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Post by Google on Aug 17, 2015 23:48:12 GMT
Yeah, I still see no reason that would prevent it from being useful as combative training. If you're phoning in your timing and distancing, that's on you. Or your teacher, I guess. As far as combative as taught? There's a lot of things that don't pass that bar. Please link me to a video that shows good timing in seitei, so we'll be on the same page. Just because many more things aren't combative as taught doesn't make znkr iai look better. That's not a standard. EDIT- I see you linked to Hakuo sensei. Is his shohatto how you perform znkr mae? It would be wrong then.
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Post by Derzis on Aug 17, 2015 23:49:44 GMT
Sure Jon. And for the sake of it, the same Sagawa Sensei (9th dan) did SEITEI too here:
If someone can show me differences between approaches in these 2 videos, please point them out
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Post by Google on Aug 18, 2015 0:02:00 GMT
This is a more relevant example of seitei, since hakuo's is some decades old and this is from 2008.
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Post by Derzis on Aug 18, 2015 0:09:55 GMT
No, since you don't have a koryu vid of him. You are looking for differences (big, sloppy, unrealistic Seitei vs manly, short, handsome koryu), and I say there are not.
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Post by Google on Aug 18, 2015 0:20:45 GMT
Seriously? This is how znkr iai looks in Europe today, what "no"? I said before that some perform koryu similar to seitei. In koryu you have freedom to choose, but seitei is... seitei. You can't just choose the size of movements or speed. You say there are none, I say there are. Now what?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2015 0:27:45 GMT
Can you point out the difference to us? They look pretty darn similar. Or are you insisting that the man is doing it wrong? This is getting surreal.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2015 0:32:27 GMT
To summarise what I've read so far, it sounds like there are plenty of iaidoka, even ZNKR practitioners, who have a healthy attitude and are happy to accept the meaning and purpose of their art, as described by their teachers and martial arts organisations, without wishing it to be something else. I have great respect for those practitioners.
I detect some iaidoka suffer from a severe case of 'koryu envy' and will insist against any amount of evidence and reason that they are real combat effective Japanese swordsmen too. This is self deception and delusion on a grand scale, sad wishful thinking.
I respect Google's realisation that the style he was studying did not fit his goals, and his evidence-based decision to find another style to study.
If people want koryu, then study koryu, if they want modern iaido, then study modern iaido, but if they're studying iaido and are trying to convince anybody that they have the same sword skills as a koryu practitioner, then they're kidding themselves and pissing into the wind. I will leave them to wallow in self-delusions of grandeur, but the truth of the matter is that with that mindset they have missed the whole point of iaido, and I feel sorry for them. At least they're getting some exercise so it's not a complete waste of time, but it's highly disrespectful to their school and sensei to be there for the wrong reason to feed their egos in effect. People should accept their school for what it is and get over it, or change schools, it's as simple as that.
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Post by Derzis on Aug 18, 2015 0:33:06 GMT
Seriously? This is how znkr iai looks in Europe today, what "no"? I said before that some perform koryu similar to seitei. In koryu you have freedom to choose, but seitei is... seitei. You can't just choose the size of movements or speed. You say there are none, I say there are. Now what? Nothing, you just do what you have to do without bashing about something just because you had an argument with your old sensei. Repeat again? What you can chose in koryu and you can't in seitei? Timing you can change, nobody is watching how much pause you make the judges look for your depth in understanding the kata and its dynamics, at your technicality and so on not on 'flavor of the day'. But no need to answer to this. Enjoy your kenjutsu training :)
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Post by Derzis on Aug 18, 2015 0:42:05 GMT
To summarise what I've read so far, it sounds like there are plenty of iaidoka, even ZNKR practitioners, who have a healthy attitude and are happy to accept the meaning and purpose of their art, as described by their teachers and martial arts organisations, without wishing it to be something else. I have great respect for those practitioners. I detect some iaidoka suffer from a severe case of 'koryu envy' and will insist against any amount of evidence and reason that they are real combat effective Japanese swordsmen too. This is self deception and delusion on a grand scale, sad wishful thinking. I respect Google's realisation that the style he was studying did not fit his goals, and his evidence-based decision to find another style to study. If people want koryu, then study koryu, if they want modern iaido, then study modern iaido, but if they're studying iaido and are trying to convince anybody that they have the same sword skills as a koryu practitioner, then they're kidding themselves and pissing into the wind. I will leave them to wallow in self-delusions of grandeur, but the truth of the matter is that with that mindset they have missed the whole point of iaido, and I feel sorry for them. At least they're getting some exercise so it's not a complete waste of time, but it's highly disrespectful to their school and sensei to be there for the wrong reason to feed their egos in effect. People should accept their school for what it is and get over it, or change schools, it's as simple as that. To summarize this: koryu envy is non existent since Seitei and koryu are both in curriculum of the three schools mentioned before. Your exam for grading until 8th dan will have Seitei in it - go figure. The rest is just blackthornism pure and simple. When you decide to stop pretending you know something about iai?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2015 0:58:37 GMT
To summarise what I've read so far, it sounds like there are plenty of iaidoka, even ZNKR practitioners, who have a healthy attitude and are happy to accept the meaning and purpose of their art, as described by their teachers and martial arts organisations, without wishing it to be something else. I have great respect for those practitioners. I detect some iaidoka suffer from a severe case of 'koryu envy' and will insist against any amount of evidence and reason that they are real combat effective Japanese swordsmen too. This is self deception and delusion on a grand scale, sad wishful thinking. I respect Google's realisation that the style he was studying did not fit his goals, and his evidence-based decision to find another style to study. If people want koryu, then study koryu, if they want modern iaido, then study modern iaido, but if they're studying iaido and are trying to convince anybody that they have the same sword skills as a koryu practitioner, then they're kidding themselves and pissing into the wind. I will leave them to wallow in self-delusions of grandeur, but the truth of the matter is that with that mindset they have missed the whole point of iaido, and I feel sorry for them. At least they're getting some exercise so it's not a complete waste of time, but it's highly disrespectful to their school and sensei to be there for the wrong reason to feed their egos in effect. People should accept their school for what it is and get over it, or change schools, it's as simple as that. What thread are you reading? There isn't any koryu envy going on here. What evidence or reason are you citing? There's no self-deception or delusion, aside from your insistence that the physical and mental skills imparted by this practice as evidenced by the gentleman that both Derzis and myself posted don't exist. You are so invested in the myth you copy-and-pasted from somewhere else that because this thing has the "do" syllable it can't have any practical value despite it being all but shoved in your face. Perhaps if you had stuck with whatever it was you were training in before a little longer you'd have the ability to recognize it when you saw it, since apparently whatever you're involved in now isn't helping your perception. Derzis is coming on strong, but it's important stuff and people tend to get prickly about things that matter a great deal to them. Laughing at people for caring about something is pretty juvenile, as is continued vulgarity and trolling. But why stop now, we're already seven pages in, I bet we can get this baby into the double digits in no time. Look, I'll be the first person to cheer *anybody* for finding a school and teacher that better suits their goals. The second best thing I ever did was separating from my first group. Good on him for recognizing that he wasn't happy with the arrangement he had. It can be a hard decision, and I hope he's happier with whatever he's doing now.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2015 1:02:18 GMT
It's hard to deny koryu envy when I'm seeing it right through this thread, and so is everyone else. The limits of what humans can rationalise to convince themselves of something is indeed impressive.
Keep telling yourselves your training gives you the same sword skills as koryu training if it makes you feel better though, don't let me stop you.
The pointlessness and futility of continuing is obvious, and I guess this video really sums it up beautifully. Have a nice day! :)
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Post by Derzis on Aug 18, 2015 1:12:05 GMT
Blackthorn, when you will use your jian on street fight, let us know. Until then, read your own phrases smile to your vids and let iai alone please.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2015 1:27:14 GMT
Jon and Derzis - words of constructive advice: 1. Wikipedia entry on iaido defines it as non-combative. All the iaido organisations worldwide haven't seen that as contentious, and have left that there, if you disagree, go change it with supporting evidence. Good luck. 2. Contact ZNKR and ask them why their system is viewed as non-combative if you can't see why that is the case. 3. There are many governing bodies of the various schools of iaido, if you think that the purpose is other than what they all state, then feel free to contact them and ask. 4. If you can't see the difference between koryu and modern iaido, contact www.koryu.com/contact.html and ask them also. What's the worse that can happen? Feel free to repost the replies you get.
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Post by Derzis on Aug 18, 2015 1:59:40 GMT
1. Luckily Wikipedia has no ranks in iaido. 2. I don't need to go to ZNKR, they come to us and say what should it be. What is happening outside the doors, is not my problem 3. I talk just about the one I practice. I will not talk about other schools. 4. I know what koryu is and how seitei should look like - seminars and sensei are more than enough and much better than a site. The debate is not there unless you are having no links to the art.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2015 2:19:27 GMT
Jon and Derzis - words of constructive advice: 1. Wikipedia entry on iaido defines it as non-combative. All the iaido organisations worldwide haven't seen that as contentious, and have left that there, if you disagree, go change it with supporting evidence. Good luck. 2. Contact ZNKR and ask them why their system is viewed as non-combative if you can't see why that is the case. 3. There are many governing bodies of the various schools of iaido, if you think that the purpose is other than what they all state, then feel free to contact them and ask. 4. If you can't see the difference between koryu and modern iaido, contact www.koryu.com/contact.html and ask them also. What's the worse that can happen? Feel free to repost the replies you get. Who do you think you are to assign me an itemized list of tasks? This is a joke, right?
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Post by LG Martial Arts on Aug 18, 2015 2:38:54 GMT
OK guys... time to calm down before a mod comes in here and shuts the post down...
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Post by Derzis on Aug 18, 2015 2:49:19 GMT
??? That is coming from where? An 'ignore' button would be good since nonsense is allowed.
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ZNKR Kata
Aug 18, 2015 3:21:48 GMT
via mobile
Post by Derzis on Aug 18, 2015 3:21:48 GMT
As I've been taught by my sensei, ZNKR is not meant to be as combative as any koryu style simply because of the ZNKR system itself... I think you showed that clearly in the vid you posted and in your explanations. I will add (if it hasn't been done before - forgive me - haven't had a chance to read the whole thread) however, it can still be a deadly art by Iai practitioners. This is interesting. Seitei combative but not "that " combative. Thanks for the info. He tried to explain how to show the difference while doing kata?
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