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Post by jam on Aug 17, 2015 13:58:42 GMT
What each student takes away from their martial arts training is unique and personal, and IMO should be the basis of discussion to understand only, not to debate the rights and wrongs.
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Post by Google on Aug 17, 2015 14:24:03 GMT
There is a place to debate right or wrong, but it depends on the purpose one trains. If I want to be proficient with the sword, I can't practice iaido only. If I practice for my mental well-being, it doesn't matter if it's not combative. There is also the historical use and purpose of those systems. There are no right or wrong purposes today.
If ones claims to be efficient in sword fighting but did only solo kata, I would be justified in my skepticism.
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ZNKR Kata
Aug 17, 2015 14:56:03 GMT
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Post by Derzis on Aug 17, 2015 14:56:03 GMT
I have no idea what internal thing is doing for you, but in a real fight you better run instead giving your lazy punch. And if right after the guy is down you just turn your back, you are in big sht. But this is me and how interpret 'internal' meanings. Sound like you're missing the whole internal psychological state, this is drawn from esoteric Shinto practices, the Chinese equivalent has Daoist origins, the point is it's not a real fight, iaido is moving meditation, that stuff about self improvement in every iaido description is not a feel-good statement to welcome westerners to Japanese culture, it's the WHOLE point of iaido and why it was created. This isn't simple expedient street fighting wisdom of keeping your wits about you, it's more than that. It wouldn't make sense to practice a subset or small portion of greater art that simply is concerned with responding to a surprise attack with a sheathed sword, while ignoring the rest of the art that it came from, if it was about learning to kill. You have very liberal interpretations of the paragraph you posted, but my opinion is irrelevant, I suggest you ask your sensei for his interpretation rather than make assumptions. If you assume you already know all about it then there's no room to learn so it's kind of pointless having a teacher, so best use the resources your paying for to get the most value for your dollar. For a guy who says that cutting with a katana is from shoulders, who reads for the first time a description of a kata you are too opinionated for me, e-sensei.
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ZNKR Kata
Aug 17, 2015 15:04:55 GMT
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Post by Derzis on Aug 17, 2015 15:04:55 GMT
Waits to see if there are no others coming after him. And if he puts it in he is still ready for any other attack until he is alone. This what he is doing. What you do after you had your duel? You go to a beer with sword in hand? Again, Blackthorn, I give you this: You have the guts to talk about iai when you know nothing about it. I can't do that about CSA or Hema. And I will never do. But this is me, not you
Derzis, with koryu kenjutsu, since it's about being on a battlefield, there is no great emphasis on iai, which idiot goes forward into battle after he's lost his primary weapon, spear or naginata, with sword in saya? Once you defeat one opponent, they don't stop, they keep coming, that's how battle works. You've probably thrown away your saya if it hasn't been smashed to pieces between your armour and your opponents weapon. You engage opponents with sword drawn. Do you train for that in ZNKR iaido? How about combat against yari? Wakizashi against katana? There's no place to stop for a beer (nor a warm saki rice wine) on the battlefields of ancient Japan Iai happens anywhere BUT on battlefield. I don't make the mistake you do. Just relax and don't post links on subjects you don't know. Tell me better how is working with your CSA training.
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ZNKR Kata
Aug 17, 2015 15:27:04 GMT
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Post by Derzis on Aug 17, 2015 15:27:04 GMT
This works better when we discuss the subject instead of try to win an argument. Rhythm and timing I s important. It isn't just a matter of hitting harder and moving faster than the other guy, otherwise there wouldn't be a reason to do anything besides cardio and weight training. Going faster is less important than having psychological and mechanical superiority. It doesn't matter if I go faster than the other guy if he can get where he needs to be first - and that is going to be a universal that applies regardless of what village, nation, or continent your system was developed in. Jon, you are both correct and wrong. Mechanical superiority (technique) is key, that is why we have endless repetition of kata at various speeds. However, for REALISTIC fighting one must understand that speed and power are parts of training. What good is my iai if I can't react in time? What good is my cut if it can't actually hit the opponent easily, or if I can't regroup when it misses? Only full-speed contact drills can teach that. If it's the situation for empty hand systems, so it is for weapons. If a complementary drill is needed, the znkr should mention it, and not hope that some sensei has the wits to do it by chance. What good is your kenjutsu if you engaged ? There are 3 options for outcome and 2 are not favourable to you: you get killed or you get hurt while killing. The one with killing and not a scratch means the guy is lousy swordsman. You killed a man for nothing instead just avoiding it. Iai gives you the tools to avoid a conflict- stance, no openings etc from a non harming posture.. I understand the benefits of both but I don't prepare myself for war with swords. For real life empty-hands will do and running will do even better. How to shoot a bow or a gun is coming handy too but this is other subject. All MA are about attitude first, what you do with knowledge Is up to you. Btw, kenjutsu is not kata based? You think you will do a kata in real life and kill the guy? No. It is your own understanding of distance, capacity to read intentions and openings etc that will save the day or not.
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ZNKR Kata
Aug 17, 2015 15:40:30 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2015 15:40:30 GMT
This works better when we discuss the subject instead of try to win an argument. Rhythm and timing I s important. It isn't just a matter of hitting harder and moving faster than the other guy, otherwise there wouldn't be a reason to do anything besides cardio and weight training. Going faster is less important than having psychological and mechanical superiority. It doesn't matter if I go faster than the other guy if he can get where he needs to be first - and that is going to be a universal that applies regardless of what village, nation, or continent your system was developed in. Jon, you are both correct and wrong. Mechanical superiority (technique) is key, that is why we have endless repetition of kata at various speeds. However, for REALISTIC fighting one must understand that speed and power are parts of training. What good is my iai if I can't react in time? What good is my cut if it can't actually hit the opponent easily, or if I can't regroup when it misses? Only full-speed contact drills can teach that. If it's the situation for empty hand systems, so it is for weapons. If a complementary drill is needed, the znkr should mention it, and not hope that some sensei has the wits to do it by chance. If your kata says you react in time to your oponent's intention or action, then to perform the kata you must do so. Is your training teaching you to fail to react, to fall short of your target, and to move in a way that prevents you from recovering and puts you in an untenable position? If someone performs in such a manner would you call it a good presentation of the kata?
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Post by Google on Aug 17, 2015 16:04:48 GMT
Jon, you are both correct and wrong. Mechanical superiority (technique) is key, that is why we have endless repetition of kata at various speeds. However, for REALISTIC fighting one must understand that speed and power are parts of training. What good is my iai if I can't react in time? What good is my cut if it can't actually hit the opponent easily, or if I can't regroup when it misses? Only full-speed contact drills can teach that. If it's the situation for empty hand systems, so it is for weapons. If a complementary drill is needed, the znkr should mention it, and not hope that some sensei has the wits to do it by chance. If your kata says you react in time to your oponent's intention or action, then to perform the kata you must do so. Is your training teaching you to fail to react, to fall short of your target, and to move in a way that prevents you from recovering and puts you in an untenable position? If someone performs in such a manner would you call it a good presentation of the kata? The rhythm of modern iaido cannot react to proper attack. It is easily detectable if you try using it against realistic attackers and not just kasoteki. I think the way way iaido is practiced within the znkr causes all the bad habits you listed above. It is considered good presentation of kata, but I don't consider it a presentation of realistic fighting.
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Post by Google on Aug 17, 2015 16:06:44 GMT
Jon, you are both correct and wrong. Mechanical superiority (technique) is key, that is why we have endless repetition of kata at various speeds. However, for REALISTIC fighting one must understand that speed and power are parts of training. What good is my iai if I can't react in time? What good is my cut if it can't actually hit the opponent easily, or if I can't regroup when it misses? Only full-speed contact drills can teach that. If it's the situation for empty hand systems, so it is for weapons. If a complementary drill is needed, the znkr should mention it, and not hope that some sensei has the wits to do it by chance. What good is your kenjutsu if you engaged ? There are 3 options for outcome and 2 are not favourable to you: you get killed or you get hurt while killing. The one with killing and not a scratch means the guy is lousy swordsman. Killed a man for nothing instead just avoiding it. Iai gives you the tools to avoid a conflict- stance, no openings etc from a non harming posture.. I understand the benefits of both but I don't prepare myself for war with swords. For real life empty-hands will do and running will do even better. How to shoot a bow or a gun is coming handy too but this is other subject. All MA are about attitude first, what you do with knowledge Is up to you. Btw, kenjutsu is not kata based? You think you will do a kata in real life and kill the guy? No. It is your own understanding of distance, capacity to read intentions and openings etc that will save the day or not. Exactly, and znkr iai does not teach that properly. Koryu does.
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Post by Cosmoline on Aug 17, 2015 17:15:53 GMT
Great information!
This is a debate on the western side as well of course. And one big question is what is "full speed"? Is it the kendo-like attacks we see in padded tournaments done at extreme velocity? I'm not so sure. Once you add sharps into the mix everything seems to change. The raw speed gives way to a measured caution and aggression is tempered by the desire to not die stupidly.
I like this stuff. What style is this?
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ZNKR Kata
Aug 17, 2015 17:36:17 GMT
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Post by Derzis on Aug 17, 2015 17:36:17 GMT
Exactly, and znkr iai does not teach that properly. Koryu does. I don't know, I always thought that the cut upwards in kesa is related to teki intention, position of his sword and distance from you, not something that is floating in the air. It is just one example. But this is becoming too redundant to say there is no difference between seitei or koryu approach unless you consider one kabuki and other "the real thing" . Tell me something, what you do different in seitei and not in koryu?
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ZNKR Kata
Aug 17, 2015 18:04:41 GMT
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Post by Derzis on Aug 17, 2015 18:04:41 GMT
If your kata says you react in time to your oponent's intention or action, then to perform the kata you must do so. Is your training teaching you to fail to react, to fall short of your target, and to move in a way that prevents you from recovering and puts you in an untenable position? If someone performs in such a manner would you call it a good presentation of the kata? The rhythm of modern iaido cannot react to proper attack. It is easily detectable if you try using it against realistic attackers and not just kasoteki. I think the way way iaido is practiced within the znkr causes all the bad habits you listed above. It is considered good presentation of kata, but I don't consider it a presentation of realistic fighting. No, the bad habits are coming from bad thinking. But how many are thinking the art they do when they train? To not be too harsh, bad habits come from not thinking the whole but pinpointing stupid things like: " Mae is wrong because I can stop the sword tsuka with my hand since it is coming on my centre." This is right in move by move, but when you put it in context you have to decide: you draw your damn sword and cut the guy or you simulate the draw to get him started and stop his hand ? Opinions, opinions and opinions. That is why that Sensei said seitei is easy because is written and is hard because is written. When reading you must think, when told, you can make it with just doing what you are told to do. At least until you start to think.
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Post by Google on Aug 17, 2015 20:11:20 GMT
Let me list you the bad habits- Weird timing, too big movements, too long pauses, and the irrelevant "spiritual pressure". Drawing for nukitsuke or nukiuchi should be made quick, in znkr iai they are slow. Big movements- the big cuts made in seitei are too obvious and easy to read and react to. Too long pauses- transition from nukitsuke to kirioroshi should be swift and fluid, in znkr iai it is too segmented and slow. Spiritual pressure- you can "spiritually press" and opponent all you want, they don't feel it nor care.
In koryu iai you use more natural and fluid timing, smaller movements and there are not many long pauses (there is a limit to how much you need zanshin).
Again, I don't know how they teach in the U.S. I've been to seminars in EU by high level hanshi.
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ZNKR Kata
Aug 17, 2015 20:18:49 GMT
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Post by Derzis on Aug 17, 2015 20:18:49 GMT
Great information! This is a debate on the western side as well of course. And one big question is what is "full speed"? Is it the kendo-like attacks we see in padded tournaments done at extreme velocity? I'm not so sure. Once you add sharps into the mix everything seems to change. The raw speed gives way to a measured caution and aggression is tempered by the desire to not die stupidly. Something like that and not quite. The main argument here is why Iaido is so slow when kenjutsu is so fast? Because sword is in saia guys, once out you can move it as fast you want - but don't cut yourself in the making, don't unbalanced yourself etc etc etc. But the action of taking out the sword from saia with the intention to cut the guy in same technique is iai. And with training you can be very good at it. The rest is killing a wounded opponent. Kenjutsu is duel, two guys wanting to go for it. The problem in reality is this: there is no fairness in the world. The guy who will be able to trick the other will survive, not the stronger or the fastest. There are no rules in there, once the sword is out and life is at stake, stick fighting is over and who knows to read his opponent wins.
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ZNKR Kata
Aug 17, 2015 20:40:18 GMT
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Post by Derzis on Aug 17, 2015 20:40:18 GMT
Let me list you the bad habits- Weird timing, too big movements, too long pauses, and the irrelevant "spiritual pressure". Drawing for nukitsuke or nukiuchi should be made quick, in znkr iai they are slow. Big movements- the big cuts made in seitei are too obvious and easy to read and react to. Too long pauses- transition from nukitsuke to kirioroshi should be swift and fluid, in znkr iai it is too segmented and slow. Spiritual pressure- you can "spiritually press" and opponent all you want, they don't feel it nor care. In koryu iai you use more natural and fluid timing, smaller movements and there are not many long pauses (there is a limit to how much you need zanshin). Again, I don't know how they teach in the U.S. I've been to seminars in EU by high level hanshi. Interesting, but this kind of things are said to beginners: Make it big, don't rush, stay etc. but just with the purpose of teaching how to make the 1st step before running. I don't buy spiritual pressure since it was never about spirit with the religious interpretation but about being "there" closing the openings and taking the advantage before an attack, in the end limiting the other guy attacking options. Who attacks a prepared target when is about life and death? A 21st century practitioner maybe, but not an old guy from those times. This is what seme means to me. Kishimoto in that movie is doing a kata in the end. That is pure seme and pure iai philosophy: sensed the intention, showed he is ready and let him live if he backs up.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2015 22:46:03 GMT
"Speed is a byproduct of efficiency of movement, and must be developed through proper training. In order to develop efficient movement – which we can substitute here as “smoothness,” you must first train to eliminate extraneous and inefficient movements. This training is typically started at a slower speed, and likely the genesis of “slow is smooth.” Slow does not automatically equate to smooth, as continuing to be inefficient at lower speed just means you are….slow AND inefficient. Going slow is just the start of the training process towards smoothness, as the correct movements need to be executed in order for the repetition to have any value. A runner who flails his arms or legs will never have an efficient stride, and no matter how fast he flails, will never reach his maximum potential as a runner. A runner who has a wonderfully efficient stride, but never trains to be fast will just be a slow runner with a very efficient stride. Hence, smooth does NOT equal fast. Efficiency in movement – aka being “smooth” – is required to achieve one’s maximum potential of speed, but it is very common to get stuck at “smooth” and keep hoping that the speed fairy will drop some magic dust on us to get to the next level. Speed is achieved through practice dedicated to reducing the speed [sic, probably means "time / interval / duration"] of the efficient movements, through high repetitions of correct movements and measurement via timed and scored performance metrics. It will not come just from doing more of the same stuff while just being smooth. This is where I see many trainers falling short in developing student skill." modernserviceweapons.com/?p=12670Of course you have to *get* to smooth before you can be *stuck* there...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2015 23:02:59 GMT
Great information! This is a debate on the western side as well of course. And one big question is what is "full speed"? Is it the kendo-like attacks we see in padded tournaments done at extreme velocity? I'm not so sure. Once you add sharps into the mix everything seems to change. The raw speed gives way to a measured caution and aggression is tempered by the desire to not die stupidly. I like this stuff. What style is this? I thought that guy looked familiar. Yoshinori Kono. He had some connection to Kuroda Tetsuzan. Some neat theory stuff from him. This seems like more of an expression of deceptive / hidden movement than speed. See how he's dropping under the opponents sword to be able to attack what had seemed to be a closed line to the inside wrist on that first portion? He's coordinating his movement in time while the attacker is in motion and committed. It's not a matter of him out-running or moving faster, this isn't blinding speed here. Whatever you think of the guy and wherever he got his schtick from, he's showing some neat stuff.
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Post by Google on Aug 17, 2015 23:15:55 GMT
So currently I see you all agree that znkr iai is a beginners tool for handling the sword, and that it's not combative if done at the same speed and big movements as taught. Wonderful!
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Post by LG Martial Arts on Aug 17, 2015 23:26:55 GMT
As I've been taught by my sensei, ZNKR is not meant to be as combative as any koryu style simply because of the ZNKR system itself... I think you showed that clearly in the vid you posted and in your explanations. I will add (if it hasn't been done before - forgive me - haven't had a chance to read the whole thread) however, it can still be a deadly art by Iai practitioners.
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Post by Cosmoline on Aug 17, 2015 23:34:22 GMT
Thanks! It's impressive to my eyes at least. It reminds me of some messer and longsword plays, and doesn't seem to be false time or reliant on a compliant foe. He plays the angles very artfully and even when he goes under or around the back of the blade he keeps himself protected. I'll look into more of his stuff.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2015 23:36:18 GMT
Yeah, I still see no reason that would prevent it from being useful as combative training. If you're phoning in your timing and distancing, that's on you. Or your teacher, I guess.
As far as combative as taught? There's a lot of things that don't pass that bar.
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