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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2015 6:24:48 GMT
Derzis, I think we're on completely different pages.
I don't disagree with you and Jon for the sake of putting you guys down or trying to denigrate iaido. I too started off in JSA and just like Google found, and his instructor explained to him, every Japanese sword art is not the same, they are different. Some are traditional combat systems, some are modern systems of self-development bound up in Japanese spiritual goals, and many are somewhere in-between.
All JSA are not all 100% combat effective battlefield style martial art that you train in to become a well-rounded practitioner of Japanese swordsmanship. Different styles with different goals, and they usually state these on their websites or brochures. If your system's goal does not match what your training goals are, find another one that does. That's what Google did, good on him, that's the right thing to do. Some people feel the mismatch but pretend that what they're training in is X when it's actually Y, that's simply denial.
It's no different in the CSA, other than using a jian or dao. Some schools teach kata but don't teach the martial application, others do. They range in goals just like JSA.Some practitioners in CMA will train in a few systems because different styles have different strengths and specialization in different weapons.
It just boils down to one simple matter, do your school's and sensei's goals match what you're trying to get out of the martial art? If they do, all is well. If you want to be a master swordsman and your sensei teaches with different goals, then you picked the wrong teacher or school, time to keep looking. If you're not sure, read the books I suggested to understand properly what you're training in and how it compares to the traditional Japanese systems taught to the samurai. Those books are written by the leading Koryu scholars in the west, all are advanced koryu practitioners or teachers licensed to teach by Japan, and have lived and trained extensively in Japan, they know what they are talking about, and they know more about koryu than both you and I!
I don't wish to derail the OPs thread, so I'll leave it at that.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2015 6:55:37 GMT
First you need to remember te ZNKR kata are modern, developments, only meant to give the kendo practitioners how to handle a real swords. I beg to differ. ZNKR kata were created with 1 reason: to make a level playing field for grading standards for different koryu practitioners. These katas have roots in koryu, and I am sure no sensei is saying "don't show seme, metsuke etc in ZNKR, keep them for koryu." I agree with Google, and beg to differ and so do the references - traditional koryu did not employ gradings other than to instructors, this is a modern addition to koryu, which confirms what Google said in the first place.
From www.koryu.com/koryu.html
"Student-Teacher Relationship
What this means, for practical purposes, is that if you cannot go and spend a decade or more training in Japan, you MUST seek out someone who has. To participate fully in the koryu you must be in direct contact, through your teacher if needs be, with the headmaster (soke) or other fully licensed instructor (menkyo kaiden or equivalent). The relationship between student and teacher is the core of both the social structure and technical transmission. Without it, you might as well be learning tiddly-winks (no offense to serious tiddly-winkers intended)! Each student is taught individually, and not everyone learns the same things in the same sequence or at the same pace. Instead of the dan grades characteristic of the modern arts, the teacher issues a traditional license--and this process is not standardized or codified. When the teacher judges the student to be ready, the license is granted.
You can't generalize the koryu bujutsu
This is merely the briefest of overviews. One important fact to keep in mind when studying the koryu is that it is impossible to make entirely accurate generalizations. Each ryu is a unique and individual entity with a distinctive identity. The name of the highest license in one art may be the lowest level of license in another; some use entirely unique terms for their licenses. Some traditions function under the control of a single headmaster; others are divided into several lines under the guidance of fully licensed instructors. Some traditions have no headmaster at all. The best source for information on any given ryu is a member in good standing, for many of the details of a particular ryu's culture are never written down."
So, koryu are not standardised, the ranking traditionally is a licence issued by the head of the school to the instructor, defining the instructors rank. Some koryu have taken on modern concepts such as a dan-kyu coloured belt ranking alongside the traditional mokuroku ranking(which only defines the credentials of the instructors and what they are authorised to teach).
Consider that Google's statement was in fact correct. If you're studying a later 'iaido koryu' there is no need to get defensive every time someone suggests that it's not the same as the oldest traditional battlefield koryu, the plain fact is that it isn't the same, that is a historical fact, and that is neither controversial or a problem for me or most people.
PS this reply was meant to be sent BEFORE my last one...
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Post by jam on Aug 17, 2015 7:49:06 GMT
Nice enbu Google.
There is no need for speculation regarding ZNKR seiteigata. The reason for the kata's creation is stated in the front of the ZNKR book.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2015 9:53:35 GMT
Nice enbu Google. There is no need for speculation regarding ZNKR seiteigata. The reason for the kata's creation is stated in the front of the ZNKR book. Thank you jam, it's funny how some people will avoid reading at any cost but would rather speculate!
It's there for those you have eyes to see... For heaven's sake, it's even here for people terrified of using printed material and no research ability - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_Nippon_Kendo_Renmei_Iaido
For convenience I've cut and pasted it (bolded emphasis is mine)
"Zen Nippon Kendo Renmei Iaido is the iaidō style of the All Japan Kendo Federation (AJKF, Zen Nippon Kendo Renmei or ZNKR). This style of standardised iaido is also known as Seitei Iaido (制定 居合道) or Zenkenren Iaido (全剣連 居合道).[1]
History
The AJKF was founded in 1952, immediately following the restoration of Japanese independence and the subsequent lift of the ban on martial arts in Japan. To popularise iaido and to make it easier for kendo practitioners to learn iaido, an expert committee was established by the AJKF to review the situation. The committee subsequently selected the basic techniques from major iaido schools to form the curriculum of Zen Nippon Kendo Renmei Iaido. In 1969, the AJKF introduced its seitei curriculum of seven standardised iaido kata.[1] These were drawn from elements of the major sword schools, including Musō Jikiden Eishin-ryū, Musō Shinden-ryū and Hoki-ryū. Three more kata were added in 1981 and two more in 2000, increasing the number of seitei iaido kata to the current twelve. These kata are officially known as the "All Japan Kendo Federation Iai" (全日本剣道連盟居合 Zen Nippon Kendō Renmei Iai?), or Zen Ken Ren Iai (全剣連居合) and commonly referred to as seitei or seitei-gata.[1]
The twelve seitei-gata are standardised for the tuition, promotion and propagation of iaido within the kendo federations. Although not all kendo dojo teach seitei iaido, the AJKF uses them as a standard for their exams and shiai. As a result, seitei iaido has become the most widely recognised form of iaido in Japan and the rest of the world."
So there it is, no need to speculate. :)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2015 10:28:33 GMT
What part of drawing a sword and pointing it at someone else is not combatively viable? Is there a magical shield around the kissaki? Umm... Koryu swordsmanship = kenjutsu + iaijutsu and a few more bits. There is more to Japanese swordsmanship than iai!
From a random iaido website:
"Saya-no-uchi -- the essence of Iaido
"Saya no uchi" is a truncated phrase. A full-length phrase is "Saya no uchi de katsu", those of which meaning is: Victory in the scabbard of the sword. The real intention is: One must obtain victory while the sword is un-drawn.
This seems to be inconsistent for the reason which a disciplinant wields his blade, but it is agreeable as the ultimate aim of the real swordmanship. The essence of Iaido is a non-combative discipline engaged in for the individual's spiritual cultivation. Through the blade we seek to improve our spirit and become better people, to promote peace and good feeling beyond the walls of the Do-Jo and into out daily lives."
It wouldn't be my first choice if I wanted to learn the full martial application of a sword...
Funny reading the aims if iaido how you can find egotistical a**holes in iaido dojos in the western world, kind of runs counter to the purpose of what this budo system is meant for, but I've even seen them in aikido dojos for that matter which has even loftier aims. Guess the prospective 'wannabe samurai' students forgot to read the dojos brochures, websites and charter, ignored what the sensei told them and mistakenly thought the Japanese writing at the entrance said "Enter here to become a modern day samurai warrior"
Like I've always said, many an Eastern martial art is completely wasted on westerners...
PS - if you don't know sojutsu, you can't be a real samurai kids!
Better leave it there, this whole exercise was fairly pointless...
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Post by Google on Aug 17, 2015 10:32:24 GMT
Nice enbu Google. There is no need for speculation regarding ZNKR seiteigata. The reason for the kata's creation is stated in the front of the ZNKR book. Thanks, Jam. Appreciated. I still don't understand how znkr iai can be considered combative- They practice slow, big movements in order to learn how the sword handles. And it's great, for beginning. Afterwards you must perform with top speed, which just isn't found in the znkr iai. In Muso Shinden ryu eventually you do move very fast, and some use small movements. That is while not regarding the "spiritual pressure" so emphasized by (at least european) sensei, which usually just sums to a constipated face. Real opponent won't really care if projected with "pressure". Usually it just ends up having a constipated face and too rigid movements. How can you handle the sword without "seeing" teki (it came up here, just want to address it)? The kata says to hit a person in certain areas and in certain ways, obviously you have to visualize where you hit. The fact that the kata itself isn't combative is irrelevant. Lastly- Not only hachidan can talk for iaido. There are even people at the sandan and above who know what they are doing. And I think I have every right for it, even if you disagree.
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Post by Derzis on Aug 17, 2015 11:08:48 GMT
I still don't understand how znkr iai can be considered combative- They practice slow, big movements in order to learn how the sword handles. And it's great, for beginning. Afterwards you must perform with top speed, which just isn't found in the znkr iai. In Muso Shinden ryu eventually you do move very fast, and some use small movements.
Lastly- Not only hachidan can talk for iaido. There are even people at the sandan and above who know what they are doing. And I think I have every right for it, even if you disagree. You are so right! damn, kabuki with high-speed :))) . But by no means I will stop you to say something.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2015 11:12:49 GMT
What part of drawing a sword and pointing it at someone else is not combatively viable? Is there a magical shield around the kissaki? Umm... Koryu swordsmanship = kenjutsu + iaijutsu and a few more bits. There is more to Japanese swordsmanship than iai!
From a random iaido website:
"Saya-no-uchi -- the essence of Iaido
"Saya no uchi" is a truncated phrase. A full-length phrase is "Saya no uchi de katsu", those of which meaning is: Victory in the scabbard of the sword. The real intention is: One must obtain victory while the sword is un-drawn.
This seems to be inconsistent for the reason which a disciplinant wields his blade, but it is agreeable as the ultimate aim of the real swordmanship. The essence of Iaido is a non-combative discipline engaged in for the individual's spiritual cultivation. Through the blade we seek to improve our spirit and become better people, to promote peace and good feeling beyond the walls of the Do-Jo and into out daily lives."
It wouldn't be my first choice if I wanted to learn the full martial application of a sword...
Funny reading the aims if iaido how you can find egotistical a**holes in iaido dojos in the western world, kind of runs counter to the purpose of what this budo system is meant for, but I've even seen them in aikido dojos for that matter which has even loftier aims. Guess the prospective 'wannabe samurai' students forgot to read the dojos brochures, websites and charter, ignored what the sensei told them and mistakenly thought the Japanese writing at the entrance said "Enter here to become a modern day samurai warrior" ;)
Like I've always said, many an Eastern martial art is completely wasted on westerners...
PS - if you don't know sojutsu, you can't be a real samurai kids! :D
Better leave it there, this whole exercise was fairly pointless... Umm... this has nothing to do with the conversation. Nor does sojutsu, or your imagination that anyone is claiming to be real samurai. Are you feeling well? I'm sure that random website you quoted is lovely.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2015 11:14:44 GMT
Derzis, if you are studying iaido, why don't you ask your sensei and get his opinion rather than disagreeing with Google and every reference I can find. if you can't trust books or fellow iaidoka then I would hope you'd trust your own sensei?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2015 11:23:37 GMT
Umm... Koryu swordsmanship = kenjutsu + iaijutsu and a few more bits. There is more to Japanese swordsmanship than iai!
From a random iaido website:
"Saya-no-uchi -- the essence of Iaido
"Saya no uchi" is a truncated phrase. A full-length phrase is "Saya no uchi de katsu", those of which meaning is: Victory in the scabbard of the sword. The real intention is: One must obtain victory while the sword is un-drawn.
This seems to be inconsistent for the reason which a disciplinant wields his blade, but it is agreeable as the ultimate aim of the real swordmanship. The essence of Iaido is a non-combative discipline engaged in for the individual's spiritual cultivation. Through the blade we seek to improve our spirit and become better people, to promote peace and good feeling beyond the walls of the Do-Jo and into out daily lives."
It wouldn't be my first choice if I wanted to learn the full martial application of a sword...
Funny reading the aims if iaido how you can find egotistical a**holes in iaido dojos in the western world, kind of runs counter to the purpose of what this budo system is meant for, but I've even seen them in aikido dojos for that matter which has even loftier aims. Guess the prospective 'wannabe samurai' students forgot to read the dojos brochures, websites and charter, ignored what the sensei told them and mistakenly thought the Japanese writing at the entrance said "Enter here to become a modern day samurai warrior" ;)
Like I've always said, many an Eastern martial art is completely wasted on westerners...
PS - if you don't know sojutsu, you can't be a real samurai kids! :D
Better leave it there, this whole exercise was fairly pointless... Umm... this has nothing to do with the conversation. Nor does sojutsu, or your imagination that anyone is claiming to be real samurai. Are you feeling well? I'm sure that random website you quoted is lovely. I'm having a poke at you, gosh, it's a joke! Hence the emojis!!! O_o BTW, I was addressing the kids who just finished watching their latest obscure anime where the characters have really big eyes and draw their katana really fast lol! :)
Maybe some references or source material about the combative nature of ZNKR, or is this more speculation? Sounds like you're pi$$sing in our pockets and telling us it's really just raining...
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Post by Google on Aug 17, 2015 11:28:36 GMT
You are so right! damn, kabuki with high-speed :))) . But by no means I will stop you to say something.
Why are you being sarcastic instead of talking on-point?
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Post by Derzis on Aug 17, 2015 11:34:27 GMT
Nice enbu Google. There is no need for speculation regarding ZNKR seiteigata. The reason for the kata's creation is stated in the front of the ZNKR book. The creation reason is one thing and the reality is another. You have a book that says the creation of the man was to make a person happy, but I don't think is still viable now.Reality now says that Seitei is there to give a common field of play when judging ones skills when the time for grading has come for any practitioner of Shinden, Jikiden and Hoki ryus. But the entire argument is not about Seitei creation but about how kabuki is seitei and how manly is koryu.
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Post by jam on Aug 17, 2015 11:35:31 GMT
Blackthorn, ZNKR iaido is combative imo. Most of the kata are very closely related to koryu iai.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2015 11:35:32 GMT
Don't worry about Derzis, he often leaves people confused, I'll put it down to a language barrier or something as most things somehow get lost or misunderstood in translation.
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Post by Derzis on Aug 17, 2015 11:35:39 GMT
Derzis, if you are studying iaido, why don't you ask your sensei and get his opinion rather than disagreeing with Google and every reference I can find. if you can't trust books or fellow iaidoka then I would hope you'd trust your own sensei . I don't need to ask, since those question were answered in May this year
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Post by Derzis on Aug 17, 2015 11:38:15 GMT
You are so right! damn, kabuki with high-speed :))) . But by no means I will stop you to say something.
Why are you being sarcastic instead of talking on-point? Ok, you want to talk on point? Good. Who told you to do it high speed? Jo-ha-kyu says something to you? Ki-ken-tai-ichi?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2015 11:41:30 GMT
Derzis, if you are studying iaido, why don't you ask your sensei and get his opinion rather than disagreeing with Google and every reference I can find. if you can't trust books or fellow iaidoka then I would hope you'd trust your own sensei . I don't need to ask, since those question were answered in May this yearSo what did your sensei tell you?
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Post by jam on Aug 17, 2015 11:41:47 GMT
Hi Derzis
Yes, seiteigata are used for that purpose, and some other purposes. But they were created to help to introduce the practice of iai to japanese kendo students, the practice of ZNKR iaido. There is only one kendo but many kenjutsu, there is only one iaido but many iaijutsu. This is what they wanted to do with the -do.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2015 11:45:07 GMT
Umm... this has nothing to do with the conversation. Nor does sojutsu, or your imagination that anyone is claiming to be real samurai. Are you feeling well? I'm sure that random website you quoted is lovely. I'm having a poke at you, gosh, it's a joke! Hence the emojis!!! O_o BTW, I was addressing the kids who just finished watching their latest obscure anime where the characters have really big eyes and draw their katana really fast lol! :)
Maybe some references or source material about the combative nature of ZNKR, or is this more speculation? Sounds like you're pi$$sing in our pockets and telling us it's really just raining...
"This brings us to the final portion of the action, what might be termed the climax in Western literature. The iaidoka has arrived at the moment of “kyu.” The finish of the kata is the final kirioroshi. Teki has been driven back, and in this moment when he is open, the iaidoka finishes the action. This kirioroshi must be powerful, containing all of the energy and tension that has developed through the jo and kyu sections of the kata. This is culmination of the entire kata. Everything in the kata has to drive to this point, with the energy and intention of the iaidoka leaving no room for any other resolution once teki has fully committed to the attack. Following kyu the kata is not over, but the tension and drive have been resolved. The iaidoka cannot allow himself to become inattentive because his foe has been defeated, but must maintain zanshin, awareness until conditions change, and the kata is truly complete." -http://ejmas.com/tin/2007tin/tinart_boylan_0703.html
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Post by Google on Aug 17, 2015 11:51:05 GMT
Why are you being sarcastic instead of talking on-point? Ok, you want to talk on point? Good. Who told you to do it high speed? Jo-ha-kyu says something to you? Ki-ken-tai-ichi?
Ki ken tai ichi can be easily performed at high speed. I don't think jo ha kyu as taught today is a good rythm for real fighting. Again, it is too slow. I've seen many iaijutsu who perform at very high speed, and I can't see how jo-ha-kyu can defeat them.
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