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Post by rammstein on Apr 27, 2008 3:02:24 GMT
Tsafa...why not use steel wasters?
I personally would LOVE to see the fight done with these because they are most similar to "real" swords.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2008 16:03:57 GMT
No way on steel. Just yesterday I got hit on the finger during drills with a blunt when someone did something they were not suppose to do. That was with padded gloves at half speed and it hurt like hell. Fingernail turning black today. We can do some slow stuff with blunts. For example enter into a bind and then try to throw the other person.
Make no mistake, blunt sword are not just similar to real swords. BLUNTS ARE REAL SWORDS. I can easily put the blunt edge 1/8 of an inch into a wood 2x4.
On the positive side I gained permission to take the padded RSW for two weeks in early August. So all systems are go. The padded swords hit pretty good too. Someone else was hit on the finger, without padded gloves, and they were dancing around in pain too. In that case it passes in a few minutes.
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Razor
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Post by Razor on Apr 27, 2008 16:25:51 GMT
Tsafa you should go to California so I can watch
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2008 16:34:50 GMT
Razor, you should come to Texas and you can get some too Looks like this may just turn into an SBG road trip. or... how about the SBG Gathering. [glow=red,2,300]THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE ![/glow]
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Razor
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Post by Razor on Apr 27, 2008 16:47:31 GMT
Razor, you should come to Texas and you can get some too Looks like this may just turn into an SBG road trip. or how about the SBG Gathering. [glow=red,2,300]There can be only one ![/glow] lol I wish I could Tsafa that would be lots of fun, we could train and spar and have a cutting party but my son has bone Cancer and I can not travel to far from home. SBC road trip would be cool because people on the forum could meet. I would like to meet you guys. A gathering....I like that Tsafa lol
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2008 16:55:14 GMT
Sorry about your son's situation. Maybe you could bring him??? It would be great, he can play with the padded swords too.
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Post by rammstein on Apr 27, 2008 18:01:38 GMT
Well that doesn't seem to be the concensus of those who participate in higher forms of WMA. Blunts and sharps are very different beasts.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2008 23:51:32 GMT
Well it depends. Do you mean a sword that is merely blunt? OR a sword designed to be non-sharpened and safe while exhibiting the same dimensions, weight, and handling characteristics of a real sword?
There is a difference.
Hanwei's 'practical' line of european swords are more designed like real swords with thicker edges and in some cases some creative fullering.
The swords to which I was referring, are albions. Designed to be completely different than merely 'blunted swords'.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2008 0:42:21 GMT
Rammstein, I was meaning that that a blunt sword or sword like object can break a head open, break fingers and other bone joints. Ram, I don't care if the weapon is balanced, not balanced, historical or not historical, the issue if it can be used safely in all out balls to the wall sparring.
When we meet I will have my armor with me so we can consider other possibilities but the fall back is padded weapons.
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Post by swordboy bringer of chaos on Apr 28, 2008 1:24:35 GMT
I say go for the padded weapons cause you can put powdered chalk in the weapon and clear up any arguement over who hit who before they start
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Post by rammstein on Apr 28, 2008 2:08:03 GMT
In "general" the WMA attitude (which is very heavily used in the SCA which is something I LOVE) is that there is no "who hit who" arguments. If you did't feel the shot, don't call it. If you feel sure that your opponent was hit, hit him harder next time.
So can a club, it doesn't mean it's an apporpiate sword.
Steel blunts can be used very safely provided both sides can use them.
If you don't feel comfortable with YOUR skill level with blunts and are afraid of cuasing injury, that's ok. But (and I may be reading into this) if you don't want to be hit by blunts because you think adam isn't skilled enough...that's sort of insulting, no?
My vote goes with steel blunts.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2008 2:36:08 GMT
Nevermind Ramm.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2008 2:39:36 GMT
Sorry buddy, we're not doing something foolish just to amuse you. Plus fingers are a perfectly valid target in a real fight so are low legs and back of the head ... and yes a club is equally dangerous, a lot of people in the SCA have broken fingers even with gauntlets on. Staps break and fingers slip out. Fingers are the most commonly broken bone going back 40 years. Don't worry Sam, this is not going to turn this into anything dangerous.
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Post by rammstein on Apr 28, 2008 2:39:47 GMT
?
Delete button is in the upper right hand corner of your post
If amuse = enlighten, you're spot on.
Unfortunately, testing with a padded weapon means that simply flailing around is an acceptable tactic due to the "bounce" of the blades. That means that whoever is stronger wins, which means you've obviously got an advantage with the SCA.
You cannot presume to call a flawed test an acceptable gauge of your own martial prowess, providing you win. Now if you think I care about this duel for my "amusmenet" that's a bit sad. I care about this because I want to see TRUE wma triumph over an imitation.
Using steel blunts which simulate swords better than anything else really, you can get a very accurate guage of how the combat would have gone had you used the sharp swords you're pretending to be holding. Steel blunts do cause injuries. But then, so do wooden blunts. Anything short of a pillow case is going to have some risk, so if you're not ok with that I suggest a hobby like knitting.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2008 3:00:27 GMT
Ram you have never handled these weapons, so you can't say how they handle. They have a steel frame and their is hardly any bounce. Second, once grappling starts the weapon hardly matters except as a finishing blow.
If you use steel and you have to limit the target areas, speed or power then you have just made it less realistic. Adam can try to hit my fingers if he wants. To take that realistic option away in favor of using steel is less realistic.
Ram you don't do any fighting so you have no concept of what is at risk.
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Post by rammstein on Apr 28, 2008 3:08:16 GMT
Incorrect AND presumptious. It turns out I HAVE handled padded swords.
COMPLETELY incorrect. Last time I checked, leverage of the weapon was extremely important in grappling. Unless my MS copies are lying to me, I'd say you must have missed that. And as adam pointed out, the width of the weapon makes grappling much harder than it should be.
Incorrect AND presumptious, yet again.
However despite how clear it is that steel will make the fight a lot more accurate (hell aluminium or wood would even be acceptable enough), it's your decision to use whatever weapons float your boat. However, you can expect a rather hefty degredation of this "duel" if you decide to call it anything other than a very loose interpretation.
I still think adam has the upper hand using any weapon but an empty soup can. And even then, I'd not count him out.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2008 3:15:52 GMT
Your the one that told us you don't fight in some earlier thread. You then told us you were quiting WMA in favor of Japanese. Then you told us you were kidding. Your just all over the place and unstable. Since you now tell us you do fight, why don't you join us in Texas
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Razor
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Post by Razor on Apr 28, 2008 3:43:45 GMT
What sparring weapons and what rules are going to be used should be all up to Tsafa, Adam, and who ever going to judge or ref it. We can type till are fingers hurt what we think is more realistic and with what weapon but when it comes down to it, both or experience swordsmen and they will DO what they think is best for them.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2008 4:12:49 GMT
Thank you Razor.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2008 5:45:26 GMT
While I do agree that steel wasters can be used safely...even at full force, the amount of armor required to do so might be something that adam and tsafa just does not have. Even most SCA armor is nowhere near enough armor for a full force, full contact match with steel wasters. Not only that, but the amount of armor this does require is QUITE expensive and the amount of damage that steel wasters would do at full force and contact might be unacceptable for them. So to say that steel wasters is best I think is kinda unrealistic to say the least. I do think that wooden can be done (and if you use some of the higher end wooden wasters, they have very similar weight, dimenstions and balance to real swords). And since the main arguement is that wraps can't be done well with real swords do to the shape of the sword, using padded weapons that will act similar to a rattan sword is kinda self defeating. However if adam or tsafa does not have enough armor to do any combat safely beyond padded weapons, then I see no point in pushing them to it. However, from the point of wraps as useful shot, I think using padded weapons is kinda a moot point. However, I'm sure there are opther thing that can be learned using the padded weapons for duels.
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