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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jan 26, 2015 23:04:17 GMT
What is the point?? Does there spirit feel the need put on a false show and act all superior over other people? Its very disrespectful and puts others off wanting to go. The same applies to this 'martial art'. The teachers must have the same undisciplined and non refined attitude as them. It isn't the people doing the kata, it isn't their teachers. Both the competitors and teachers have put a lot of effort and training - which takes discipline - into getting to that point. The problem (if you see it as a problem) is that somebody organised a competition where doing kata like this is a path to winning. If you want people to do something, reward it. This kind of kata is rewarded, so people do it. I wouldn't call it "proper" martial arts, but the tournament organisers are willing to include it in a martial arts tournament. Not a new "problem": the Olympics were originally martial games - wrestling, boxing, running in armour, jumping, throwing javelins (for accuracy, not distance, in the beginning). Now we have ribbon gymnastics and synchronised swimming. At least they're doing their kata with concentration and putting effort into better. Better, IMO, than people who just plod through the motions trying to avoid sweating, solely because their next belt test needs them to do it. More honest than "teaching" people that because they can do slow-motion low-effort elbows to the face and knees to the going against a compliant partner, they have mastered Real Street Self-Defense. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2015 23:31:28 GMT
You say they havn't mastered self defence by being calm and training there motor skills slowly?
Strongly disagree. By saying that the reverse must be true then for being taught to display obnoxious, flashy moves makes them competant fighters.
The purpose of martial arts is self cultivation, self defence and fitness. To act outside of a peaceful nature and become a savage is not the correct way.
I'll counter argue and say yes, we have all been young and had violent outbursts by not being able to control ourselves.
Martial arts should teach us to have a calm and clear mind, and not raise out energy's up to the point where you are practicing with anger.
You criticised students being taught slow and repetive movements in a calm manner. This is actually the correct way to begin to learn, then as they progress they are essentially nurtured to more advanced stages of applications.
For example, knowing and sensing when you would have to make a certain technique applicable in a bad situation.
What isnt the correct way of teaching is having children from a young age being taught the opposite of this, and the emphasis being put on them to be fierce and aggressive in nature.
There was a situation I found myself in recently where I had a large, juiced up muscle head harrassing me in the gym.
I'm 5'7 and 170lbs, this dude was at least 250 and over 6 foot.
He was constantly being intimidating and scaring others by acting out his aggressive nature, giving him a false sense of invincibility.
This guy started targeting me and kept snarling at me for over half an hour. I could have easily snapped and met fire with fire but my training in the martial arts has always taught me to NOT act in such a manner.
Anyway, it got to the point where he started getting in my face in the changing rooms causing a scene in front of everyone. The gym workers were usless and afraid to do anything.
Yet I still kept my cool. When a person acts with aggression at others, all they are doing is building up more emotional intensity inside of people.
I let this idiot continue until he followed me outside and I knew his intention was to get in my face and punch me.
As soon as he got close, and after I let him fill his ego until the point when he thought he could actually punch me, I focused all that aggression and anger he had created inside of me and gave him the hardest knee into his (censored)s I have ever done.
He got lifted off his feet and you could hear the crunch. I calmly picked up my bag and walked away and left him on the floor for his buddy to clean up.
The point is, martial artists DO NOT and SHOULD NOT act in the manner I saw in the XMA video.
If you cant value the nurturing relationship a teacher should have with his student then perhaps you should find a better teacher rather than criticising the teaching methods of genuine martial artists.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jan 27, 2015 1:50:51 GMT
You say they havn't mastered self defence by being calm and training there motor skills slowly? Strongly disagree. [...] You criticised students being taught slow and repetive movements in a calm manner. No. I criticised students who "plod through the motions trying to avoid sweating". Slow is a good way to start learning. Calm is good all the way through learning. Repetitive is a good way to learn. Putting in the minimum possible effort to do the motion, without any consideration of the martial purpose of the moves, is not a good way to learn. By saying that the reverse must be true then for being taught to display obnoxious, flashy moves makes them competant fighters. No, I didn't say that. I said "I wouldn't call it "proper" martial arts". They're not learning fighting; they're learning dancing and performance. What I did say is that people learn to do kata like that (i.e., XMA kata) because they can win tournaments by doing so. They don't do it to debase traditional martial arts, they don't do it because it's a path to learning to fight. They do it to win tournaments. If you don't like it, blame the people who organise the tournaments - they're the ones rewarding XMA behaviour. I focused all that aggression and anger he had created inside of me and gave him the hardest knee into his (censored)s I have ever done. I don't think you learned that by plodding through patterns putting in as little effort as possible. Or by no-effort knee strikes against compliant partners. While you said "To act outside of a peaceful nature and become a savage is not the correct way", it does seem like aggression and anger can have a place in fighting, even in martial arts. If you cant value the nurturing relationship a teacher should have with his student then perhaps you should find a better teacher rather than criticising the teaching methods of genuine martial artists. Deceptive "feel good" teaching is a nurturing relationship? Elbow strikes work, knee strikes work. But it's good to do real drills and bagwork, not just go through the motions slowly and without effort (I'm thinking of the worst of Krav Maga (or what claims to be Krav Maga) teaching here). I don't have anything against people teaching martial arts-based stuff as dance, as relaxation, as self-cultivation. What I would say is wrong is teaching somebody a Taiji form, done slowly and gracefully, health and relaxation style, and then convincing them that they can defend themselves because they know that form. If you want to argue in support of that kind of thing, go ahead, but you won't convince me that's true martial arts. If the "light and easy" approach was good enough to learn martial arts properly, why would it be called 功夫, "gong fu"? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2015 2:20:20 GMT
Hold on a second now. No one here is claiming those practicing another style for health and fitness is claiming they can use it to defend themselves.
Well mind you, people surprise themselves what they are capable of when backed into a corner...
Lets stay on topic, what benefits does XMA promote? Fighting skills? I think we have already established that it's not practical. Fitness? Okay, I can see that benefiting you but why not take up any form of exercise? Health benefits? I highly doubt people taking this up in there 30's upward will be able to jump around with a sword screaming as loud as possible. Nor would they want too, as I'm sure maturity factors in here.
So the whole thing is just for a showy performance then? Don't like it lol.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jan 27, 2015 2:49:30 GMT
Hold on a second now. No one here is claiming those practicing another style for health and fitness is claiming they can use it to defend themselves. You claimed to disagree with my complaints about "plodding and low-effort", and wanted to counter-argue. If you don't think that "plodding and low-effort" teaches effective self-defence, teaches martial arts properly, then there isn't much to argue about. Lets stay on topic, what benefits does XMA promote? The short answer is "none". So the whole thing is just for a showy performance then? Don't like it lol. It's to win tournaments. I don't like it either. But neither do I hate it. It's just something some people do. I don't think it belongs in martial arts tournaments, but that's up to the people who organise the tournaments. Perhaps they feel it brings in more paying attendees? Doesn't bring me in to tournaments. Was never big on MA tournaments anyway, even those without XMA. I never grokked the usual tournament fighting; might explain my 1-0-6 tournament record. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2015 3:01:08 GMT
There really is nothing to argue about.
Glad we could wrap this up :)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2015 3:47:15 GMT
Screaming and aggressiveness doesn't automatically disqualify something from being a legitimate art - Jigen Ryu springs to mind immediately, I'm sure it isn't alone. There's a place for calmness and poise, and there's a time to go screaming in like something that smashed it's way out of hell and is going to flatten everything that gets in its way.
It isn't the fact that these XMA people are loud, or assertive, or even that they jump up in the air - you look closely enough for long enough, I don't doubt for a second you'll find that and more in traditional martial arts. Leaving aside the lack of cultural context, which can be a very big deal if that's what you want, there's a lack of efficacy in the movements, not to mention the fact that the props they are using really aren't very good placeholders for the weapons they are ostensibly representing. But it's visually stimulating, lots of rapid movements to capture an audience's amusement (especially when throw in exciting music and bill the event as "The Battle of Wherever", it's gets average people pumped.) and this sort of thing is unfortunately going to appeal to a much larger base than anything traditional.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2015 3:59:22 GMT
Screaming and aggressiveness doesn't automatically disqualify something from being a legitimate art - Jigen Ryu springs to mind immediately, I'm sure it isn't alone. There's a place for calmness and poise, and there's a time to go screaming in like something that smashed it's way out of hell and is going to flatteni everything that gets in its way. It isn't the fact that these XMA people are loud, or assertive, or even that they jump up in the air - you look closely enough for long enough, I don't doubt for a second you'll find that and more in traditional martial arts. Leaving aside the lack of cultural context, which can be a very big deal if that's what you want, there's a lack of efficacy in the movements, not to mention the fact that the props they are using really aren't very good placeholders for the weapons they are ostensibly representing. But it's visually stimulating, lots of rapid movements to capture an audience's amusement (especially when throw in exciting music and bill the event as "The Battle of Wherever", it's gets average people pumped.) and this sort of thing is unfortunately going to appeal to a much larger base than anything traditional. Even the great Bruce Lee described it himself as putting on a show by jumping around kicking and screaming and being filled with a cocky feeling. |
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Post by LG Martial Arts on Jan 27, 2015 4:20:16 GMT
Check out the XMA Headquarters webpage: "Jump, Kick, Flip & Fly like a Superhero on wires! Olympic Trampolines, Spring Floor, Mini Tramp and a 9000 cube pit of FUN!... WHO ARE WE? The flagship XMA World Headquarters is a state-of-the-art, one-of-a-kind facility to combine so many disciplines coordinated by extensive programming under one roof. As seen on the Emmy Award-winning Discovery Channel documentary, XMA (Xtreme Martial Arts) signifies the transition of martial arts from the traditional towards the contemporary. Having evolved from ancient forms of self defense, the modern martial arts movement is now more sport and entertainment while still remaining true to the time-honored principles of Honor, Discipline, Integrity, and Respect. This is not evolution, its the XMA Revolution! XMA is a fusion of all martial arts styles, blended together with performance arts, high-flying acrobatic maneuvers, and the hottest Hong Kong, chop-socky-style action! At the basic levels, XMA is a non-violent, performance based program. Martial arts is used as a tool to develop Life and Leadership Skills through curriculum based belt ranking training. At the high end, students can reach elite levels, compete on the international stage, and even go head-to head with Hollywood’s Elite! Our mission is to develop well rounded individuals that think globally and are socially conscious who will lead others, one black belt at a time!" xmahq.com/about-xma/I think that accurately represents what this whole "art" is all about: "XMA is a non-violent, performance based program", plain and simple. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2015 4:25:51 GMT
LOL! 'Non-violent' yet they represent the japanese sword and attitude towards the art in the complete opposite and appaling manner...
My father was also from Hong Kong in the same village as Ip Man and I havnt seen any high flying chop-socky action lol!
Idiots.
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Post by Maat22 on Jan 28, 2015 17:37:16 GMT
they are soooo..... angry. the guy smiled at the end but my god.... so serious, his stance looks like ryu's...
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Post by Robert in California on Jan 28, 2015 18:06:13 GMT
In the Dojo, perhaps it is my over sensitivity to seemingly unpleasant personalities, but sparring with nice people, I try my best to be gentle and work hard to be a good sparring partner without hurting them (and when I spar with kids, I make sure they both win, learn something if I have a point to teach them, and leave them smiling).
We occasionally get someone with a hostile attitude problem. And so try to defuse that attitude with humor and kindness.
When that does not work, then it is time to let them be themselves and act out their hostility on their sparring partner.
(which is fun for me, for opponents less than black belt level, because I can then use some chi).
Except for one Nidan Dojo instructor who I would not miss if he left. I kicked him hard in his sore knee and he came back with a kick that cracked my ribs. Kind of tough for a white belt to beat a black belt. Sort of a lop sided match, that.
But the guy was too rough with my kid, in a kids class, so I do not think I owe him favors. My kid quit the Dojo after that.
The guy and I have a current detente. We try to minimize contact with each other.
Not a bad guy, just rough and probably has issues outside the Dojo as well.
But back to that girl with the (fake?) sword and high energy, skilled perfornance.
Watch her face and spirit closely.
Does that belong in a young girl?
The really dangerous senseis I have know, are, at least outwardly, friendly, kind and peace loving.
I can only hope that girl leaves that angry spirit in the Dojo.
RinC
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Post by randomnobody on Jan 28, 2015 19:18:25 GMT
I used to know a girl from a kenpo or some such class I used to take, many years ago, who was probably about the same age as the young girl in the first video (the only one I bothered to watch). She was a much higher level than I was, brown belt at 9 years old, tested for her "junior" black belt at 10.
Anyway, hell of a fighter, that girl. I was twice her size and much older but could barely keep up and more often than not every sparring match between us ended in her favor. We were actually neighbors before classmates, and we'd "spar" (more like wrestle and general rough play) outside the class, as well, as she liked the challenge of a much larger opponent. I guess, anyway.
Point is, she had a kata much like these, designed for tournaments as well. It was actually very well choreographed and she executed every movement near flawlessly. Were it not for the horrifying facial expressions and shouts I'd not hesitate to call it something beautiful. That said, she'd already proven her martial skills before even being allowed to start on this "kata" and there was no real emphasis on it within the class, we had our own katas and were graded on those. This was just a competition thing.
As for how she turned out as a person? Well, despite being on several (boys-only) sports teams in her childhood, she had a very competitive nature that bled over into her academics just as much. She was also very popular and generally a fantastic person. Were I but a few years younger... Anyway, haven't shared one word with her in...probably a decade? But last I heard she'd gotten into a local college with local prestige and is now a marine biologist.
All that to say, as long as this silliness is just for the competition circuit and is not billed as genuine martial arts, I don't really see the issue. Most of these people probably practice the same kicks and punches day in and day out as anybody else, but because this stuff goes over so huge at competitions, they train mostly for this kind of thing. Strength, stamina, agility, flexibility, speed, coordination, and most importantly confidence are all still there.
Where this becomes a problem is the little upstarts who think they can take on anybody with their supercrazyfastwildaction-fu acting all snotty to other kids because they think they can. I knew a few little snots in my day, came to a draw with most of them.
Anyway, I've got nothing against it as long as it's taught as the performance it is and nobody uses sharp steel for it. When somebody inevitably does, well, I hope the rest of the world is smart enough to acknowledge it as the isolated incident it was.
Too much negativity here, some of it well-intended, perhaps, but we're making to many judgments without knowing enough.
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Post by Cottontail Customs on Jan 28, 2015 21:34:22 GMT
That first girl didn't seem especially angry to me, just very intense and focused and maybe some theatrical expression thrown in for good measure.
-Josh
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Post by randomnobody on Jan 28, 2015 22:05:56 GMT
Yeah, that's what I got. Didn't have time to watch the other videos on the first go-round, haven't felt suitably bothered since. I'm familiar enough with the XMA stuffs as I've seen it plenty over the past decade or so. Never really did it for me, but I can appreciate what it aims for, even if it's often misconstrued as something else and not everybody really makes it look good. I've seen some sloppy stuff praised. I'm reminded of a particular gif, or maybe it was a short video, of some woman twirling a katana-like object around some flourishes or whatever, then throwing it up into the air, spinning around, catching it, and "cutting"...with the blade backwards.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2015 22:29:14 GMT
I loved my Tae-Kwon-Do instructor for his attitude...real nice guy! He wasnt easy on me with his very good kicks, but got easily confused with me using backfists and other bread-and-butter stuff from my Karate days...he always grinned and said "(censored)!" xD No way he got angry from someone hitting him!
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Post by randomnobody on Jan 30, 2015 3:19:01 GMT
I remember the first time I went up to spar with my instructors. There were still two at that point, and they took turns playing punching bag. Told me to hit them as hard as I could, wherever I like, and see if I could hurt them. I couldn't, or at least it didn't seem like I could.
First time anybody "sparred" in that class it was always with the instructor (we didn't do the whole "sensei" thing) and they never so much as dodged or blocked, never mind fought back. They just played the age-old mind game of "come on, is that all you've got? HIT ME. Come on, I'm right here!"
Later on they spent more time just throwing you around because you could never touch them again. They were just too quick.
I kind of miss those days...
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Post by Maat22 on Jan 30, 2015 3:23:27 GMT
i agree that we shouldn't judge what they are practicing; because we have no context for what their training is.
i wasn't particularly saying anything about their expressions/emotional states during the actual hyungs/katas, because i share the same disposition while performing.
the first and second videos performers, their facial expressions made an impression on me.
Now i am projecting my experiences, but when Im finished a test or competition I like to smile as i bow to the audience, after all everything im doing on the "stage" is a form of entertainment for them, and I like to keep it light. While the performance is on, it is another story, the warrior comes out.
That first girl is a beast tho no doubt. And all three performances were impressive and quite beautiful.
wasn't trying to throw any 'shade' i was just kinda poking fun.
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Post by kronckew on Feb 1, 2015 9:34:09 GMT
nice dancing, reminds me of the egyptian belly dancers with their marvelously accurate swords. this one comes complete with added swishing sounds. neat sword guard alignment oin that blade too.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Feb 1, 2015 9:51:13 GMT
Well, to get into sword dances, there are some that are more directly martial arts inspired.
Two by Yoon Ja-kyeong:
And Chinese:
PS: These make more martial sense than some XMA performances.
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