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Post by frankthebunny on Dec 1, 2014 1:21:43 GMT
So there's been a lot of discussion regarding blade lamination these days and I wanted to hear your opinions on why this appeals to you. Or why it doesn't. From what I understand, lamination like this was a way to make the blade flexible yet have the edge remain as hard as possible, beyond what differential hardening alone would allow. I'm curious though as to what the smiths of old would have chosen to use if they had modern steels and processes available to them. Would they still take the extra time to fuse different steels together or would they just go with a differentially hardened 9260 blade and call it a day? It's not like a sanmai, hon-sanmai or kobuse blade won't take a set on a really bad cut, right?
For me, I see this process as unnecessary with modern steel. I would still choose a blade with a hamon over a through hardened blade only because of the aesthetics of a beautifully made hamon. As far as edge hardness between th and dh blades, how much does this even matter for most of us that do some occasional backyard cutting? Do those that cut with a th 9260 have to sit down and resharpen their blades after every use, or after 10 uses, or never? I mean a well made and tempered 9260 blade will surely be as flexible and resilient as one could ever hope for so would a laminated blade have any benefit over this?
Again, I would choose a dh blade because of the aesthetics but on most laminated blades we've been seeing lately, you really have to look closely to even see that it's laminated. Let's also consider that the quality of the lamination might not be all that for an affordable sword, in fact there would be a lot more risk involved the more complex of a lamination you have. So, for no obvious benefit in the flexibility and strength of a blade and increased risks without a great aesthetic appeal...why would one want a laminated blade?
Here on the forums we see a lot of trends come and go and with every new one, it's something we absolutely must have and trumps all things before it. After it fades away, the old standards are still here. Are laminated blades just the new, new thing?
So, what are your thoughts?
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Dec 1, 2014 1:46:52 GMT
I feel that the need for laminated steel today is purely cosmetic. If I had a GO-TO blade or one for training it would be one of S7 or 3V through hardened. S7 is one of the toughest steels I know which is also low cost and easily obtainable. 3V is great all around, great for edge holding, has some spring like qualities, and very tough.
But if I wanted to collect blades then I would have one with made of tamahagane and with a great hamon, and one with laminated steel. Just to admire.
If I lived back in the day,and resources were tight, then I could understand why the good steel was sparingly used and only for the cutting edge.
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Post by frankthebunny on Dec 1, 2014 4:06:12 GMT
I forgot to mention that I was asking specifically about the common laminated blades found on the budget swords from the ebay sellers, etc. and not the nice looking ones with fancy patterns, fire scale, copper accents and so on. Just the ones that you can barely tell where the line is
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Dec 1, 2014 4:18:20 GMT
Well, it's my practice to stick to monosteel blades. I don't see there being enough of an enhancement in performance to warrant the risk that I see in a folded, pattern-welded or laminated sword at the prices I am(rarely) able to pay. Aesthetically, I find a nice DH monosteel blade as really gorgeous, and am not a huge fan of the gaudy hada you see on a lot of lower-cost swords.
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Post by LG Martial Arts on Dec 1, 2014 4:25:44 GMT
You mean like this? :lol: Attachments:
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Post by Onimusha on Dec 1, 2014 4:26:11 GMT
In the old days, tamahagane was all they had to work with. Nowadays, that's all the Japanese can legally work with. A lump of tamahagane contains x amount of really high carbon steel, y amount of "medium" carbon steel, z amount of low carbon steel, and possibly some wrought iron. The process of lamination, I think, is simply to make the high carbon steel go farther.
The various lamination patterns all have one thing in common. The high carbon steel forms the edge. I think that the various styles are just different smiths' ideas for counteracting forces from the directions they think those forces will come from in a fight.
If laminated blades were better than monosteel blades, the rest of the world wouldn't have abandoned lamination when they got better steels.
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Post by Krelian on Dec 1, 2014 5:37:40 GMT
My feelings on the subject almost mirror Adrian's precisely. The only time I'd be interested in folding or lamination is if it was done by a high-end specialty craftsman (but as FtB said that's not really what he was talking about)...
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Post by VicoSprite on Dec 1, 2014 12:06:10 GMT
I personally don't believe that any of the ebay stuff is laminated. Advertised as so, but never has the evidence in the blade itself. The only blade that I truly believe that is a laminated blade in the production market is the Ronin Elite. Now whether it is truly soshu kitea or san mai is hard to say without cutting one open, but you can see that there is an edge steel, and at least side steels. Cheers guys, Cody
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Post by atrixnet on Dec 1, 2014 15:01:14 GMT
Oh dear me and my awful sense of humor. Add that to the fact that it's early morning and I've not yet had anything to wake me up. I've read this thread and thought, dang, lamination tho. It's awesome and super super beautiful. But in reality it might be like having the most beautiful and fastest horse on the street where you live :lol:
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Post by Robert in California on Dec 1, 2014 16:27:31 GMT
Who cares if your horse is fast, as long as it looks good. (and guys and gals commonly have the exact same selection criteria in choosing a mate....except the guys put priority on looks and the gals put priority on money.... :-) Joke (attempted): Two young women chatting: W1: My boyfriend is rich! W2: But he is old and ugly. W1: There is no such thing as an old and ugly, rich man. (why else do beautiful young women "fall in love" with 80 year old, ugly, rich men?) :-)
But ahem! I digress. I have mono, folded, Sanmai and tamahagane. All fine. But since I have DH mono for "beaters", I might as well have the others for art. Same with paintings. Why spend extra for an original watercolor or oil painting when a nice poster can be had at Walmart for a few bucks, or if one insists, a cheap but ok print of the Mona Lisa?
Once one has what one needs (DH mono), one then one would like what one wants.
It is the old utilitarian vs. aesthetics debate.
Would you prefer a good looking spouse who can not cook? Or a so-so looking spouse who is an excellent cook?
Rodney Dangerfield has a cute quip about this topic. But it is a little risque.
RinC
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Post by VicoSprite on Dec 1, 2014 16:51:31 GMT
Aside from what is really laminated blades made in China (I think its funny that Hauwei has probably the best Lonquan smith working for them, and they haven't produced a laminated blade, but one can think these lower level smiths can pull it off is kind of funny, personal feelings) anyhow on to why. Is there any performance advantage? Minimal if any. But it does "look" cool the way the two different types of steels welded together look while the Hamon interacts with them. Especially when the border of the Hamon line is right where the weld is you get some cool activity. But then again why buy Chinese made katana for this type of things? Most Chinese made laminated blades aren't folded, they are mono welded to mono. All the folded "laminated" blades appear to be a polish job to make the ha appear mono, when it's not. True San Mai or hon San Mai for that matter would have a chunk of mono "meat" as some put it all the way to the kissaski, even on a botched job you would see it more to one side if it isn't centered, but if it was truly San Mai, it would be there. It isn't something that "fades" in and out. It's either there or it's not. This is just my personal opinion on the matter looking at the subject in a logical way.
Well I rambled off track...but like I said, aside from the activity with the Hamon to look at, there is no point for lamination with the modern steels. Cheers guys, Cody
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Post by frankthebunny on Dec 1, 2014 17:04:27 GMT
That is funny :lol:
For my personal cutting needs, which are as basic as you can get, I would do best with a th 9260 or 1060 or any well tempered and resilient blade with decent geometry, balance, and edge. I choose instead to own and use dh blades, preferably 1095 or t10, or any steel that shows the hamon well. I don't need the hamon to make the sword perform better, it just looks nice and I like admiring it. Worth the extra money in my opinion. Folded steel, on some swords and including tamahagane, could be something aesthetically valuable and is fairly easy to see. I personally don't like the cheap "damascus" stuff from makers like Shinwa but some of Huawei's folded steel was very pretty imho.
The problem I have with the ebay sanmai blades is you can barely see any evidence that it might be laminated. You have to look really hard and then if you look too hard, it might just be another fold line in a regular folded steel blade. It would be like owning a horse that looked almost exactly like a dog. "Hey, take a look at my new horse... no, you have to look really closely....no, wait, it has to be in the perfect lighting...., wait, I'll get a loupe.... oh, just forget it!"
On the other hand, if it were a case of increased function of some kind then it wouldn't really matter much if you could see that it's laminated. It would all be in the performance. Which I don't think it would be.
Has anyone cut with one and been able to feel a noticeable difference or get much different results in your cutting performance?
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Post by atrixnet on Dec 1, 2014 17:17:37 GMT
All: My point was beautiful horse vs reliable car. Which one are you going to use for your daily commute? I think frankthebunny got the joke tho. Jokes for karma today only?
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Post by Aurélien on Dec 1, 2014 18:10:58 GMT
Frankthebunny: "Has anyone cut with one and been able to feel a noticeable difference or get much different results in your cutting performance?" Yes, I have. Ronin Elite (soshu kitae) vs RDP (TH 1060). Absolutely no difference: against hard targets, the TH bents and the soshu kitae breaks . I stick with my Raptor!!!
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Post by VicoSprite on Dec 1, 2014 18:13:51 GMT
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Post by atrixnet on Dec 1, 2014 18:17:07 GMT
I love that website! The photos at that link don't really "pop" the way you'd hope a sanmai to look. I'd wager that to the untrained eye, no difference would be noted, or the seam would be considered a flaw!
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Post by VicoSprite on Dec 1, 2014 19:53:15 GMT
Very true. However one way of thinking is you can tell a noticeable seam between two types of tamahagane, how much more so would you be able to tell two different types of mono steel. Better yet, here is an example; www.roninkatana.com/ronin-elite- ... sion2.html If you look closely at the pictures, you can see a definite line going through mid way up the Hamon. Sanmai would have this same line. Cheers, Cody
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Post by wazikan on Dec 1, 2014 19:58:21 GMT
I think.that modern steels.exceed.what laminated steels can do. But dh is a must. A blade needs to flex and come back to true.
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Post by wazikan on Dec 1, 2014 19:59:57 GMT
In the old days they had to fold.the.impurities out if the blade then mix it with other steel to get better results. People can just buy a bar of steel free.of.impurities now
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Post by Onimusha on Dec 1, 2014 20:24:00 GMT
DH blades tend to bend and stay bent. Nothing flexes and comes back to true like a good spring-tempered, TH blade.
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