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Post by frankthebunny on Dec 1, 2014 23:38:59 GMT
Perfect example of what I was talking about. I know I've seen better pics of these blades and yes, you can tell there is a line but you have to look closely. Again, a hamon might well be unnecessary functionally speaking but it's not just a line, it has more visual appeal. What I see when I'm looking at the pics in the link is a fuzzy looking polish and what looks like the reverse hazuya'd hamon. I know these are also heavily etched so maybe it wouldn't look so grey and washed out if it weren't. They are not advertising the lamination as aesthetically pleasing, they don't even mention anything visual, they are advertising it's exceptional flexibility paired with being able to be sharpened to a razor edge and excellent resiliency in battle. If someone can prove that this blade, or any laminated blade is more flexible or sharper or any more resilient than any other well ht'd and tempered dh blade, I might consider going with laminated. I guess it should also go up against a Kaze to see if it performs better that a 9260 that also has a hamon. If not, then you might be paying $500 more than you need to.
Personally, I think all this lamination stuff on production swords is just another fad that sells more swords. At least for a while, then it will be back to the tried and true. I'd rather see improvements in tsuka construction, fittings and saya finishing.
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Post by VicoSprite on Dec 2, 2014 0:15:10 GMT
I guess that is where you and I differ Josh, I rarely read the advertising because it is all hype. I just look at the product for what it is, and make my own (however wrong or right) judgment.
When I look at the Ronin Elite here is what I see: First they are counting the habaki as part of the blade length, so that puts me off already. 2nd, I don't understand the polish, and if I was to purchase, I would have to redo it. 3rd, it is laminated, how? San mai? Soshu? I don't know. Lastly, the hamon, on a "higher end blade" I expected something more than the generic chinatana wave. So using deductive reasoning and dividing by the lowest common denominator we have.; A san mai dh blade for $900. No thanks. I would rather put that towards a second Kaneie.
But that is just me. I don't believe anything someone tells me and half of what I see. Having a ebay salesman tell me this one is sanmai means nothing to me if I don't see any evidence like what the Ronin displays.
As far as taking companies word for that the lamination actually helps in the performance dept, I would say that the burden of proof lies with the company to prove to me their claims, and if they don't, what they say has no bearing on what I think of the product.
What I do listen to however are people that actually use their sword and test them not to destruction, but by cutting a lot of targets that I will be cutting. People like let's say John Walter, when he thinks that Hanwei 5160 th blade is 'probably' the toughest blade out there, that has some bearing on my opinion.
If you want all out performance, get a Raptor or their new Rensho line or a bugei 5160.
If you want a blade that has a nice hamon, but will still last a lifetime, get a PC Musashi Daito, lol.
But lately I have been cutting with my 9260 dh Kris 29iv, and it has been stellar.
But spending $900 for a laminated blade? No thanks.
Spending $250 for an eBay special hon san mai and thinking you are going to actually get what you are paying for? No thanks and good luck to you with that.
Out of all the cutting I have done, my unokubi raptor, daito and kris 29 iv have all taken abuse by my lack of skill on knowing how to actually use the things, but none have taken a set, a chip, or have even dulled. So how can anything perform better than that?
Ok done rambling. Lol Cheers buddy, Cody
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Post by atrixnet on Dec 2, 2014 0:32:22 GMT
What do you cut, Cody?
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Greg E
Member
little bit of this... and a whole lot of that
Posts: 1,338
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Post by Greg E on Dec 2, 2014 0:56:22 GMT
Not all who collect, cut. And not all who cut, want to collect. I have yet to cut anything but the box a sword came in. So, as of now I have bought only those swords that appeal to me by looks. But once I start to cut with my blades, I will probably buy a TH mono steel blade. So until that time I will buy what interests me visually; steel types, sori types, hamon types and saya options. True that they may show up in the classified at some time, but I am having fun so far.
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Post by Robert in California on Dec 2, 2014 1:05:59 GMT
I buy for maximal historical authenticity. So, full rayskin wrap, one mekugi, folded steel or laminated or related, and clay tempered. And for beauty...so a hamon of a style I like. And so I am less than excited to cut stuff that might scratch the blade. Especially after spending days on a traditional finger stones polish. But that is me. Others buy swords for other purposes. Different strokes for different folks. RinC
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Post by VicoSprite on Dec 2, 2014 1:39:07 GMT
Atrixnet, bottles (the caps mostly), mats and occasionally my 4x4 stand. I don't have access to bamboo.
Since this discussion was about the performance advantages (or lack thereof ) of laminated blades, I assumed we were talking about our cutting blades. I have a Kaneie nagimaki naoshi that I don't cut with. So I understand the collecting aspect of having a blade that just turns you on. Naoshi are my favorite style blade, and I want to have a blade that I can use sometime soon, but I won't be using my Kaneie anytime soon. And I wasn't trying to down anybody who doesn't cut, or who isn't professionally trained, or trains in the traditional clothing and what not. None of these things I am or do. I just like having some fun cutting every now and then. I'm sure I look goofy doing what I call cutting, especially when my edge alignment is botched and bottles go sailing into the fence with one hell of a whomp, lol, but who cares, I enjoy it.
RnC, I have heard that the use of fingerstones on modern steels don't really work out too well due to the hardness of the edge? I would love to see some of your work. I was thinking about trying it out until I read that.
I got into cutting by watching asoundlikesilence, on YouTube. I thought, this guy seems like a normal guy, and he is amazing. I think around that time he had just won his jubei. After seeing how well his abilities progressed in such a short amount of time that I have been watching him, I could at least learn a tenth of what he does and I would be happy, and have a great time. And while his skills have progressed a lot, making my goal of learning a tenth even that much harder, lol. I have come a long way on my own, to the point where I am fairly accurate, and botch a lot less cuts, and keep making improvement. I am practicing shibori more, and from different angles, although this is challenging for me, I keep trying.
For those who have yet to cut, I say this, buy a cheap blade, and go out back and cut some water bottles. Just try it. Greg, if you can't afford a cutter, hit me up in pm, and if you will use it, ill send you a rdp or something. But only if you want to actually use it, and safely that is.
Ok enough rambling again, lol. Cheers guys, Cody
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Post by frankthebunny on Dec 2, 2014 2:02:00 GMT
I think you misunderstood my point. I more or less agree with what you've said and I also have been more influenced by performance related demonstrations over destructive ones, thus why I ask people to cut with my swords instead of try to break them I hear ya but I haven't seen a full wrap tsuka from an ebay seller that had an emperor's node or didn't make the finished tsuka shape bloated. One mekugi is only a good thing if the tsuka core is perfectly fit, which is also not very common with these swords. The folded steel of these budget swords really look nothing like historical authentic tamahagane and whether or not most of them are even really laminated is still unknown. I'll give you the clay tempered though :lol: and I can appreciate collecting for the idea of reflecting something more valuable or from the past. I doubt I will cut anything with my custom Huawei either, I have other swords to cut with and once I'm done customizing it, I kind of want it to stay pristine I mean I know it all comes down to what people like and what makes you feel good about your purchase but I'd really like to know if some of the claims are true or not.
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Post by frankthebunny on Dec 2, 2014 2:10:29 GMT
I think there might have been more to what you read Cody, it sounds like it's out of context. I think certain methods don't work as well or the same on some modern steels as they do on tamahagane. There are different methods and materials for different steel types as far as I know. Check out the hamon and polish on what I think is W2 steel in these videos He really makes the hamon pop out with his "finger stone polish"
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Post by VicoSprite on Dec 2, 2014 2:52:48 GMT
Ah gotcha Josh. And I don't understand as well. Maybe because aside from a Ronin Elite, an old Cheness model and some of the older munetoshi models, I really don't think that there are any other laminated models out there. I have yet to see a ebay katana that I think is really anything other than "damascus with a deceiving polish" . That's just my opinion on what I see though.
I guess I don't understand what you are looking for. And what claims in particular you seek to get to the bottom of.
Anyways, yea it could be out of context, a little bit of knowledge...but I will check out the link on the desktop you provided, I appreciate that. Cheers buddy, Cody
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Post by frankthebunny on Dec 2, 2014 5:20:29 GMT
The reason I started this thread was because I wanted to know why people want to buy laminated production swords. The claims I'd like to look into are those made by the ebay sellers and other production sword sellers saying their blades are of sanmai, hon-sanmai or any other complex lamination/construction. My opinion is that most of them are not what they claim to be and that even if they were, it's of little to no benefit anyway. Hope that clears it up
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Dec 2, 2014 5:54:21 GMT
One really important old-time benefit of sanmai and similar construction was more forgiving heat treatment. Traditionally, the blades were not always tempered - just quenched. Less likely to get a fragile blade if it's of laminated construction.
Perhaps this is still useful, given the possibility of bad heat treatment.
In the world of hand-forged Japanese kitchen knives, monosteel can be more expensive than sanmai (if a very high carbon steel is used) - apparently the monosteels can be harder to forge well, so sanmai knives can be cheaper.
Another traditional advantage is reduced crack propagation. A crack in the edge is less likely to go all the way through. Differential hardening will reduce this too, but laminated is better. (And the worse the welding is, the better the blade stops crack propagation.) I've seen a number of antique laminated blade with cracks that stop (mostly cracked edges, but one that was bent severely and the outside metal cracked).
Another modern advantage is that the cladding can be more corrosion resistant. Not much of an issue for swords - who whould buy a sanmai 420J2/1095/420J2 sanmai blade? But good for kitchen knives and tools.
I don't think I've ever bought a sword because it's laminated, but I have bought some laminated swords (mostly not Japanese-style, though). I don't object to it, as long as the price is OK (and the cheapest have been very cheap, like well under $100, and genuine lamination (although one of those might just be folded, rather than laminated - I forget which)).
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Post by Maat22 on Dec 2, 2014 12:09:14 GMT
To address the original question, the reason i would go for a laminated blade is for authenticity. i find it funny that laminated would be a new trend, because from when i was young ( i still am cuz i am talking 12 years ago when i was 12) i was hearing about the mythical strength and sharpness of the katana... thanks to games like shinobi (now i know lots of that S*** is just that); but from back then people were attributing these indestructible properties to lamination (even tho i didnt know that is what it was called)
there is a NOVA (i think, i know it was aired on PBS cuz it is the one channel i get) special on katana production ... pretty interesting...
now i do think that spring steel is the most resilient steel around today, and probably the best choice for a modern day katana, laminating modern steel is probably overkill... unnecessary from purely a performance standpoint
however laminated steel still holds a certain mysticalness...
Katana production was a highly spiritual practice back in the day. Understanding the significance of the steels complexity (from the collection of black sand, to forging it into steel, and molding those steels into blades) requires a different outlook that we westerners lack for the most part. laminating the steels was necessary(as so many have pointed out) to make a super durable blade out of SAND.... pretty freaking amazing and magical.... so that is where I derive my appreciation for lamination....
black sand is a magnetic iron oxide called magnetite... this is stuff that bubbled out from the mantle hundreds of thousands of years ago (maybe millions) sooooo..... No i do not think that the smiths of old would have chosen to just use modern steel and done... cuz it wasn't about that for them...
I wouldn't call lamination the new new thing, i would call it the old old thing. lol
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2014 12:49:18 GMT
Smiths _now_ don't just choose to work in modern materials. Some do, but many work with traditional methods (to varying degrees) for whatever reasons they decide. Kind of like how some people choose to study obsolete weapons instead of modern ones.
No one should be surprised at this point that me-too ebay vendors or whatever latch on to any keyword they think will generate a sale or differentiate themselves for a moment.
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Post by Bob B on Dec 2, 2014 15:32:36 GMT
I seem to recall reading an article years ago pertaining to this. It may still be over at "the other forum". But if I recall correctly the forges are not litereally folding their own steel. They're starting off with a billet of already folded steel. Further more I seem to recall this was in regards to the Swedish powdered blades....please correct me if I'm wrong.
Josh...I'd go a step further in regards to laminating. I'd say a loose weld on these lower price point blades could be dangerous for use. I think at one point Cheness suggested using their laminated blade for light cutting and a mono steel blade for anything more.
When we talk about appearances, I haven't seen (to my memory) any folded/laminated or otherwise production sword that remotely resembles Nihonto. There's some sice shapes or sugata out there on some, but the steel itself the hada is usually huge and burly. The Nihonto I own are very tight hada and some are hard to see and if at all in some places. Books and reference material show close-ups and what not but from two feet away or whatever, you can't see the hada til in hand in a majority of them.
Bob
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Post by Onimusha on Dec 2, 2014 19:40:53 GMT
I've heard people swear that laminated blades have some sort of "shock absorption" quality. They say that they don't feel as much shock in the hands when they cut hard targets. It's plausible I suppose. Vibrations don't travel as well through soft materials, so maybe a core or spine of dead soft iron or low-carbon steel would absorb shock.
I somehow doubt that the various laminated eBay blades offered by Chinese forges are what they say they are, especially the ones that sell for $300 or less.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Dec 2, 2014 20:53:44 GMT
The only cheap modern laminated katana blades from Chinese forges I've verified are sanmai (where "laminated" means more complex than just "folded"). Pretty sure they start with a sanmai billet before it gets forged to shape, so shouldn't be much more expensive than plain folded. Doesn't take any extraordinary skill, doesn't take any extraordinary cost, so I don't see why such blades can't be much cheaper than $300. Still needs the same amount of steel, and not much more labour (assuming plain sanmai), so why shouldn't forges that can sell $100 katana for a profit manage sanmai well under $300? Especially since it takes risks out of heat treatment compared to 1095 and the like. Genuine sanmai blades can be bought from Australian middlemen for under $300, so direct from China should be possible. (But "possible" doesn't stop dishonest sellers from trying to cheat a buyer, especially somebody they don't think will be a repeat customer.)
A complex 5-part lamination might well be another story.
Also, just because the whole point of sanmai is (traditionally) to have a much higher carbon centre steel, and to be able to safely heat-treat to have that very hard, it doesn't mean that a cheap sanmai katana blade will have good heat treatment and an edge with close to the hardness you hope for. (Saw one example of this.) Or even that the steels are as advertised. I think poor heat treatment is a much bigger risk than fake lamination.
(Which is a point in favour of differentially hardened blades. At least a hamon tells you that the heat treatment isn't too bad. Which brings up the point of faked hamons.)
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Dec 2, 2014 22:15:27 GMT
It will be very hard to say what construction method is used by just looking at the blade.
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Post by atrixnet on Dec 2, 2014 22:33:05 GMT
Fakery is so rampant and in many cases so very hard to identify. We have to rely on reputation and reviews by experts. Straying outside that protective umbrella because something fancy or exotic catches the eye, can result in being taken for the fool and the purchase of a low quality fake.
See the link in my signature for examples of spotting nihonto forgeries.
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Post by Robert in California on Dec 3, 2014 0:52:27 GMT
With old nihonto, gimei was common. Used to be said, "If you have seen 100 Akihiro's, you have seen 100 fakes." But they were all nihonto and it was also true that it took a good smith to do a good forgery of a great smith. ....and to get back closer to the topic, Longquan sword seller Wang-katana2011 has their own sword factory. I was told a year or so back that they were able to make a wider hamon on a folded sword than on one of their mono 1095 swords.
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Post by VicoSprite on Dec 3, 2014 0:57:31 GMT
I think member digs-fossils had purchased one of these "san mai" ebay vendor blade and did a video un boxing that he put on YouTube. It was about half way through the video that he stopped worrying about the menuki color and realized that all three of his "san mai" blades were actually just a standard run of the mill "damascus" folded blade with the ha being polished to a mirror finish to get the look of a mono steel center of advertised 1095. Unfortunately due to the lack of amount of folds in the blade (or fortunately, since he called the vendor out on it so other potential buyers were made aware of the deception) he could easily see that the folded part of the blade never ended thus no 1095 mono being present anywhere in the blade. I for one can appreciate him owning up to the fact that he got ripped off, and let others know by posting that video. I know that it would be a tough pill to swallow for me, but I think that he had the best interest of the community at heart, as some would just say "oh no its real" or worse try to sell the blades second hand to one of us not stating the falsehoods he revealed, and perpetuate the lie further. So to digs-I personally thank you for revealing the truth, as I know that you have gotten a lot of heat from even other members. You stated your case, and even just the small amount of knowledge that I possess I can clearly see that you are justified in your claims.
I just wish other members would come out who may have purchased one of these, and admit that they have been deceived as well. So we as a community can say to these vendors who lie to make a buck, if you mess with the community, we will call you on it, and hopefully their sales will suffer enough that either they will stop, and not only that but have other vendors see that it doesn't pay in the long run to deceive. If we as a community work together on things like this, then just maybe the vendors will self regulate a little bit better, and promote honesty and customer service as reasons why you buy from this vendor or that vendor. Wishful thinking I know, lol.
I can't remember which vendor it was that sells these fake san mai, but I one thing for sure, whichever one it was will never get a dollar from me.
This attitude of "well the salesman said it is really laminated, so it's got to be true" just don't fly with me. Places like eBay especially are full of used car salesmans, just trying to get your money. But the diamonds in the rough, the honest vendors should be put above these other frauds, and promoted.
While I do agree, it is very hard to tell how a production katana is laminated, it isn't however very hard to tell THAT a production katana is laminated. Due to the inherent quality level of a production blade, there will be evidence if it is, and if you have to go get your loupe, you are probably looking for something that isn't there.
A quick acid etch tells a lot. You may just not be happy with what you find if you have to do it.
I have heard a lot of people talk about 'fatal flaws' in katana, and have read some on the subject. I am curious, and I will try to do some research after I make this post, but, a core steel in San mai construction, if it isn't present on the ha, is it a fatal flaw? I don't know. I do know that Bob brings up a great point about the safety of said blades.
Can ebay vendors produce a san mai blade for under $300? I don't know, if anyone can it would be them. But I personally haven't seen one yet, or any other laminated katanas for that matter is worth my time and money.
I will stick to what I love, mono steel with hamon, mono spring steel for strength, and the occasionally well done folded steel with hamon.
If laminated blades were the best new old thing, we would see a lot more Howard Clark and Walter Sorrels laminated stuff coming out, but we don't.
Josh, good luck on your search, I don't however think that you will find what you are looking for. But, your concerns have valid reasoning. Truth and logic will always prevail. Cheers guys, Cody
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