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Post by Novice_Surgery on Aug 6, 2013 13:43:30 GMT
So, a few months back, I purchased a ronin ko katana from the sbg store. All was good with the blade to my eye upon initial inspection except for two very tiny black marks which I quickly waved away as a drop of steel or 2 that could be removed with a metal eraser or file. However, I was inspecting this specific blemish very extensively and found out that the opposite is so! The marks are pits in the blade steel! The worst part is that I saw them when I first received the sword and dismissed them. The pits are rather deep as well, deep enought to be black in color. I fear this compromises the integrity of the steel. I have only made 1 cut with the ronin on dry cardboard on the day I recieved it and I use hanwei sword oil once a week. The blade has NEVER not been 100% free of debris. Ive also NEVER allowed the blade to be without oil for more than 5 minutes and not a drop of water has ever hit the blade or the sword anywhere. I use a hanwei sword cleaning kit. Although my warranty period is long over, I cant help but not be so happy with pits in my blade. Especially when I know I saw them the day I received it, and misidentified the marks. The swords never even been disassembled...Pictures on my next post. Ill make sure to capture how isolated the marks are compared to the nice polish on the rest of the blade, and how those sort of pits could only result from horrible maintenence of the sword, which as I have stated, Ive treated this sword like my baby, because it is; or serious corrosion at some point before I recieved it. When I oil I get the sheen so thin you can barely see the oil on ot so I know its not from that, ive owned more than 1 sword for more than a couple years so im no sword noob here. What do I do?
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Post by Novice_Surgery on Aug 6, 2013 14:06:25 GMT
Regardless of warranty period, this sword could break in half if the holes are deep enough on the first swing at a target. This is a problem that could have gotton someone killed. Who knows how deep those holes go? I am a practitioning martial artist so this poses a huge problem for me. Im not trying to bash anyone or anthing. Just stating the potential severity of such a flaw.
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Post by stickem on Aug 6, 2013 15:01:59 GMT
Would help if you post some pics so we can diagnose the problem better. Often something like Mother's Mag will remove rust spots, but you may have to sand down the area if there are indentations to make the blade completely flat and free of stains...
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Post by Novice_Surgery on Aug 6, 2013 16:22:54 GMT
Its most definately NOT rust. It is an actual hole in the steel. A metal eraser would remove surface rust. But the eraser has no effect on this, and a toothpicks tip can go inside the hole so its definately a hole in the steel. When my friend brings his labtop today, ill have those pictures up pronto. This is a serious issue. This sort of issue can produce a lemon sword.
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Post by stickem on Aug 6, 2013 17:53:47 GMT
Ok. No one is suggesting you haven't done proper maintenance on the sword or anything wrong. Pics will help us see what you see Since the ko-kats are 1060 monosteel, we wouldn't expect any of the kizu (flaws) which are associated with folding the steel... so I am not sure what this might be :? I thought it might be rust because you said at first the black dots were very small and hardly noticeable but now seem to have grown. Also note rust can be black and make pitting in steel... One question: When you clean this area with isopropyl alcohol and a paper towel, does the towel turn red or black or yellow? That's what I'd expect with rust...
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Post by johnwalter on Aug 6, 2013 18:28:33 GMT
Ill agree this is a possibly serious issue,either way its a serious flaw for a user sword and qc should have caught it,but lemons slip thru.And your sensei may not allow it in his dojo because of it. Pics will help determine the severity,but I do tend to agree with you.
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Aug 6, 2013 19:04:47 GMT
Does the spot look like something on this pic? Right-click to see it in full, worst parts are cropped off the pic. However the part that worries me is the fact you can insert toothpick in it so it's obviously quite deep. Swords react differently to the enviroment, here is Finland I don't use any oil on the swords in koshirae unless I'm cleaning them. Some swords don't seem to develop any rust even after cutting, and some swords tend to almost instantly rust when cut with.
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Post by Lord Cobol on Aug 6, 2013 20:12:52 GMT
Maybe it's "black rust", which is a different compound than the red/brown rust we all know and loathe. I've seen it in pits like you describe on a wallhanger and a few machetes of one particular brand/model. Depending on who you talk to, it forms instead when there is more moisture and less air than the best conditions for red rust, OR from impurities in the steel. The former is a possibility for the wallhanger but not the machetes; the machete company may have gotten a batch of bad steel (?). It can be removed the same ways as red rust, including aluminum foil + water, but my anti-rust tricks work on the surface and won't reach into pits. So my black-rust machetes still have their black rust. The good news is it doesn't spread like red-rust does, and is mostly harmless.
But none of that sheds any light on whether the pits themselves dangerously weaken the blade.
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Post by Novice_Surgery on Aug 6, 2013 22:06:37 GMT
Well here are the pictures: s1303.photobucket.com/user/novic ... o%20Katana When i whiped the blemish down with isopropyl alchohol,the cloth did not change colors at all. Still bleach white; not even a hint of color came off the blade. The tip of the sewing needle easily fits inside the hole, and if i try to move the tip of the needle, it gets stuck on the side of the hole, instead of sliding off what should be a smooth blade surface its actually two holes if you look closely, but there is one circular hole and the other one is a line shaped pit. The second smaller one also has depth enough that the tip of the sewing needle fits inside it and the walls of the hole stop the tip from moving smoothly across the blade surface over the blemish. They are definately holes, not surface rust. The circular shaped one is clear in the pictures as it is big and deep, and the line shaped one is smaller and directly next to the circle shaped one. Ive also owned more than 25 swords in my lifetime so im absolutely certain its not black rust. Ive seen many examples of rust in my time on sword steel. Black rust would have shown on the cloth with alchohol.
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Post by Novice_Surgery on Aug 6, 2013 22:27:12 GMT
Remember these blemishes were there on the day i received the sword. I noticed them almost immediately, but misdiagnosed them as the opposite of what they were. I thought they were a couple drops of molten steel that could later be polished or sanded off. The dots have not increased at all in size in the time ive owned the sword. Same exact size they were on day one. The sword has made a single cut on its own shipping box, and has remained with a thin sheen of hanwei sword oil on it at ALL times. I dry handle it every day, but i also inspect it for fingerprints, moisture, and chemicals on the blade surface every day as well. If I find a spot, ive always de-oiled, whiped down with windex, then reapplied a thin sheen of hanwei sword oil. Its never been back in its saya without a blade inspection. I oil the sword once a week due to Florida's climate, but i also own a dehumidifier.
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Post by Novice_Surgery on Aug 6, 2013 22:31:01 GMT
I know no one is saying I dont know proper sword maintenence. I just wanted to make sure i covered my bases and give as much information in what has happened to the sword up till now as possible. Thank you everyone with your responses so far.
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Post by johnwalter on Aug 6, 2013 23:45:19 GMT
It looks like the steel stock this blade was made from had this flaw and the laborer making it either somehow didnt notice it or just didnt care and let it slide. While its definitely a weak spot,Im not sure how much of one.I would show it to my sensei and ask his opinion.Its more reason I wouldnt cut bamboo hard targets with it.But that would be up to you and your teacher. Sucks man.
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Post by Novice_Surgery on Aug 7, 2013 0:05:44 GMT
Post deleted.
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Post by stickem on Aug 7, 2013 0:27:02 GMT
Agreed. In my experience, oxidation (be it red or black) comes off and winds up on the towel when you use something like isopropyl or Mother's Mag. Perhaps not all of it comes off by wiping, but some of it comes off, enough to discolor the towel.
This doesn't look like rust... looks like a hole in the sword, like you said.
Since these aren't folded steel swords, my guess is John may be right and there was some sort of flaw in the steel itself before it ever got to the factory. Someone who knows lots about metallurgy and forging like Dan Davis could probably give you a definitive answer.
Anyway, sorry to hear about your troubles. I don't think Paul has much to do with the daily running of the SBG store any longer since he is in Japan. Don't want to speak for him though, and as always, I could be wrong.
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Post by Novice_Surgery on Aug 7, 2013 0:49:59 GMT
post removed, as the material written here was insulting and offensive to members here. No one asked me to remove this post, I did so of my own will as I am ashamed of my words here in my anger and no longer feel the way this post said I did at all.
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Post by johnwalter on Aug 7, 2013 1:21:00 GMT
Wait a minute NS.Are you under the impression that Ronin is dojo quality while your Kc isnt? Kc products are every bit as Dojo worthy as the RDP,in this case more so.
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Marc Kaden Ridgeway
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Retired Global Moderator
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Post by Marc Kaden Ridgeway on Aug 7, 2013 1:51:57 GMT
Have you even tried contacting Paul? Have you sought resolution at all ? I ask because you are ranting and raving and even being insulting. Only a blind man or a fool could miss this you say, yet you misdiagnosed it your self for how long?
Try contacting Paul before you drag his name through the mud.
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Post by Novice_Surgery on Aug 7, 2013 2:08:27 GMT
Oh I know the kc blade is dojo quality. However its gonna cost quite a bit to get everything mounted, and build the entire sword around the blade. Its going to take alot of time too. So I should have already had a sword worthy of tameshigiri, but now I dont, so in that time which could be quite a long time as we all know building a sword can take, I have nothing to show for the nearly half a grand ill have invested in both swords The blade doesnt even have a saya. I bought a shinken for it to be a shinken, not another iaito.
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Post by Novice_Surgery on Aug 7, 2013 2:31:48 GMT
Well if you saw it the day you purchased the sword from a vendor youve been researching for months and has this kind of reputation, would you be cool with a product that can KILL you or someone you love at anytime? Regardless of how many days or months have gone by, this problem could kill me any day of the week. Dont act like someone shouldnt have every right to be angry with a product that could get them killed or someone else killed during normal use. Ive been doing everything in my power to identify the problem in that spot since day 1. I purchased a metal eraser from kult of athena, I searched these forums extensively, ive run my finger aceoss the spot( cleaned and oiled right after) but the holes were very tiny annd my finger didnt pick the depth up. The fact that they were indeed pits in the steel only revealed itself to the tip of the toothpick, and then even more accurately to the tip of a sewing needle. Sorry if my feelings are what they are but if this went unnoticed completely by expert quality control like it didnt exist, and my comparitavely untrained eyes saw that there WAS a black mark in the steel upon first unsheathing, regardless of whether I could identify it; experienced qc definately could, and should have. These arent invisible to the naked eye people, even from arms distance there are the two black dots there. I just cant withdraw my anger over something that could have cost a life. What if I hadnt kept at it trying to identify the marks? What if I cut one day in the dojo and the blade breaks and kills someone? Who would be insulted then?
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Marc Kaden Ridgeway
Member
Retired Global Moderator
Awful lot of leaving and joining going on here for me .... And gosh I can't recall doing a bit of i
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Post by Marc Kaden Ridgeway on Aug 7, 2013 2:42:59 GMT
yes ... I suppose there would be a chance small pitting in the blade could break and kill you . A chance about like winning the lottery and getting struck by lightning in the same day.
I have broken more swords than most anyone I know ...on purpose . I have a pretty good idea what I am talking bout when it comes to breakage ... especially of a dojo pro.
So with the BS dramatics over the danger of it all set aside , I ask you again... have you contacted Paul?
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