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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2008 5:39:48 GMT
I would like to open up a discussion on Broadsword vs. Rapier to be discussed in all the forms as they were historically used. They were contemporaries within the same time period so you could very well match theses to styles up in a duel. I recall that George Silver hated the rapier and the whole thrust oriented system of fighting.
I know little of Silver's broadsword system. I have read Steven Hand's book, but I am sure that has only given me a mild idea of what the system is like. Nothing beats training and practical experience. My primary rapier form is case. I fight dagger and single well too. I have also played around with cloak, buckler and cane. I would fight a broadsword duel with a 40" rapier in one hand and a 36" rapier in the other hand. I would keep my shorter rapier on his broadsword side for better levered blocks. I would maintain maximum range and do all my work with the tip.
I have had the opportunity to fence someone very knowledgeable in Scottish Broadsword. We fought on two occasion using his training weapons. He uses basket hilted sticks. The first time we met he beat me, the second time I beat him. I can't say that these matches would be a good example because the weapons used were inaccurate for both of us. He has the right length, but his simulator was way too light for broadsword. From my perspective the simulator was a little lighter but way too short. There is also the matter that with a rapier I will usually have something in the other hand. He primarily fights single broadsword. The training rapiers that I use to fence normally are realistic. They are only tempered differently for a flex. Most broadsword fighters do not use realistic broadswords in fencing.
So how do you guys think these two styles of fighting would match up in sampling of duels.
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Post by swordboy bringer of chaos on Feb 20, 2008 5:52:14 GMT
I'll wager the broad sword to break or crack the rapier if they conect... but for speed and evasion the rapier hands down
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2008 6:22:59 GMT
The rapier is not that thin. They usually have a diamond cross-section and are also tempered. If a rapier blade is hit, it will flex. Not to say that they never break, everything can break, but most will take a good pounding. Here is a picture of my rapiers. I fight case (one in each hand). One is a 40" the other is 36". My long handles also give me a few more inches of range. I think speed is on the side of the broadsword. Most people's hands can only move 30-40 mph in a thrust. If the hand is making an aching motion as in a cut, the hand is still moving 30-40 mph but the tip is moving upwards of 150 mph depending on the length of the sword. In a arching motion you can make a small hand motion that will change the angle that the blade in coming in from significantly and fool the other person. The problem with single handed cutting swords is that the longer the blade is, the harder it is to generate momentum and control it. For that reason the broadsword will not be longer then 31". That gives a significant range advantage to the rapiers. The broadsword needs to find some way to get within its range without getting killed first. I don't see how that is possible. I have heard that George Silver has some method of defeating rapiers but I have not read the details. Has anyone come across this information? I found George Silvers publication. Cap 8 deals with the rapier. So far I have no idea what he means. www.pbm.com/~lindahl/brief.html
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2008 5:30:47 GMT
Humm...does the broadsword user get a shield vs your case of rapiers? With a shield, you could possibly use that to get within range by blocking their left rapier and steping in.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2008 6:51:39 GMT
Against a full shield rapiers are in big trouble. A full shield has no concerns about distance when facing rapiers. He can charge right up and get up close. The rapiers do not have the cutting ability that a two-swordman would have. Once the shield gets past the point, the rapiers don't have much to offer. However civilians don't walk through town with full shields so it is an unlikely match up in an urban setting.
Broadsword & buckler, or broadsword & dagger is a more likely combination. George Silver does mention them. In those circumstances the fight just got harder for the rapier if the broadsword in competent in using an off-hand weapon. This is something I must think about more. The truth is that I depend on the broadsword not being a two-weapon man. They usually are not. I will try to contact my broadsword sparring partner, who is also an instructor in that weapon form and will be knowledgeable on the extent of dagger and buckler use with the broadsword.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2008 11:17:46 GMT
Well if they are limited to basically using one hand vs two for you, that hardly seems fair. At the very least, he should be allowed a cloak. With a cloak, I would wrap your longer rapier and pull out to try to out range the shorter blade reaching across your body and step in past your deadly points. I do think that is your not using both your hands while your opponent is, your being a bloody fool and deserve the merciless stabbing that is to commence.
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Post by rammstein on Feb 21, 2008 18:50:33 GMT
See, that's not entirely true.
He may be less conrcerend about it, but it's still an exceptionally important aspect in fighting with a shield.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2008 19:35:57 GMT
Yes, your right. I phrased that wrong. He is concerned about distance. He does not to be at that range where the tips of the rapier are a threat and his own sword is out of range. The advantage to him is he has is that he can pass that line very quickly. It is a lot easier to run forward then to run backwards to maintain distance.
For the first time I had an experience like that last night against a mace and shield fighter. The mace being the shorter weapon was getting under my range. It was hard for me to get my shots off with a 37" sword when the guy is 12 inches in front of me and also has a shield. He was able to drop his mace in from weird angels because it is a mass weapon with no edge or high speed acceleration concerns. I need to practice backpeddling and pushing-off more.
I don't want to get off topic. I just wanted to illustrate how different weapons have different optimal ranges.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2008 20:34:07 GMT
Since I have little experience in either system of fighting, (something I'd like to change) I'll concentrate on the weapons themselves.
The broadsword blade usually range in length from around 30" up to 34", with some being longer.
The rapier is usually longer, from 36" to more then 40". Therefore, it has the reach advantage.
The broadsword would also be slower. Not necessarily as in how fast it's moving, but how quickly it can accelerate and recover. The rapier again has the advantage.
I don't see how the broadsword could win, unless the rapier wielder was less skilled then the broadswordsman, or he had a shield. He could be skewered before he was in striking distance.
Tsafa, how often were a pair of rapiers carried in period? It seems to me a that a pair would be quite bulky for carrying around town, unless your manservant followed you with them.
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Post by ShooterMike on Feb 21, 2008 20:43:14 GMT
DI beat me to it.
Yeah, it seems that since you've stated that the broadsword wielder would be unlikely to walk around town with a shield, that the rapier man would also be unlikely to wear two rapiers in the same case. So does that negate the comparison? Probably, if limited to a real-world encounter.
Then again, anyone walking around town with any sword might also be likely to wear a dagger too. What about confining the camparison to rapier/dagger vs. broadsword/dagger or just rapier vs. broadsword?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2008 20:56:05 GMT
Unless we're talking about a pre-arranged duel. I believe that's where the term "case" came from for fighting with two rapiers. Your servant would show up at the arranged place with you and present you with a case that carried two rapiers. However, I don't know how often the dualist would actually use two rapiers at the same time.
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Post by ShooterMike on Feb 21, 2008 21:30:24 GMT
Seems to me that the rules of honor strictly enforced that in such a situation both participants be armed with reasonably identical weapons. Thus the cased set.
The situation Tsafa's referring to seems more likely to occur during a fight on the street or back alley than in a formal duel. In the context of a duel, it would seem dishonorable unless the participants agreed ahead of time to choose their own dissimilar weapons.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2008 21:55:08 GMT
I believe that "case" used in an SCA terminology is inaccurate. A "case" of rapiers was two rapiers specially designed to fit together, that would "lock" together, allowing them to be worn in the same sheath.
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Post by swordboy bringer of chaos on Feb 21, 2008 22:06:56 GMT
like a Chinese doa two blades that appear as one
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2008 22:17:55 GMT
like a Chinese doa two blades that appear as one Now thats just silly! -pumps tradition-loving fist- lol
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2008 2:18:49 GMT
I believe that "case" used in an SCA terminology is inaccurate. A "case" of rapiers was two rapiers specially designed to fit together, that would "lock" together, allowing them to be worn in the same sheath. I think the SCA came up with the name "Florentine" to refer to two-swords. I don't know if it has any prior use. "Case" is refered to as a fighting style with two rapier in Di Grasse. So it is not an SCA name.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2008 3:40:00 GMT
Yes, it is used by Di Grasse. But I do not think he is using it to refer to any two rapiers which are fought with together. The name refers to a specific set of equiptment, aka. two rapiers which were designed to fit together. The SCA butchered the connotation into ANY two rapiers that are fought with together.
Yes, Florentine is an SCA creation.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2008 5:12:08 GMT
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Post by swordboy bringer of chaos on Mar 2, 2008 5:18:30 GMT
like a Chinese doa two blades that appear as one Now thats just silly! -pumps tradition-loving fist- lol that's not traditional so were did that concept come from ???I've seen it done with gim/ti-chi and broad/doa blades .... Ithink it looks cool (said childishly)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2008 18:46:45 GMT
I have Stephen Hand's book on Silver, and have taken a seminar by Hand. I still have trouble understanding it, maybe because it is fairly simple and counter-intuitive. He seems to favor the broadsword because a good cut will disable immediately, whilst a thrust may take some time to drop a man.
I'll give it a look-over again.
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