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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2008 23:03:12 GMT
As I recall, Silver's position is that a "true fight" must contain both cuts and thrusts. Therefore, a system that relies mostly on thrusts, in his view, is imperfect.
The thing that bothers me about Silver's system, is that Queen Elizabeth had to outlaw any rapier's longer then then 3 feet. She had the London guards break the tips off. That shows a lack of confidence.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2008 23:55:21 GMT
Or simply Royal whim. One of the reasons I have heard for the ban is "because they were unsightly". They could do that back then (as long as a general didn't disagree...)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2008 18:15:15 GMT
I heard that people were tripping over them.
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Post by rammstein on Mar 8, 2008 0:13:34 GMT
I heard that people were tripping over them. Ditto, although I've doubts that that's true, that's what's been repeated a lot. No evidence pro or con that I know of.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2008 19:56:46 GMT
Back to the original topic, I'll fight arming sword and sword hilted dagger (blade length at least 14") against dual rapier. The style I'll use will be consider extremely unorthodox, and will borrow heavily from the phillipino traditions of espada y daga. You can cry "not WMA" but I think any man at arms worth his salt would have studied as much as he could and would employ any advantage that he can get, within reason.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2008 20:21:21 GMT
Back to the original topic, I'll fight arming sword and sword hilted dagger (blade length at least 14") against dual rapier. The style I'll use will be consider extremely unorthodox, and will borrow heavily from the phillipino traditions of espada y daga. You can cry "not WMA" but I think any man at arms worth his salt would have studied as much as he could and would employ any advantage that he can get, within reason. It's thought that FMA espada y daga are borrowed from the Spanish, due to the name for instance. I believe that it has little similarity to any recorded WMA, but they weren't all recorded.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2008 20:58:41 GMT
The phillipino culture has had many influences from the spanish to the moors, to the spanish moors. LoL Ferdinand Magellan lost his head there to a native warrior wielding a kampilan broadsword that looks surprisingly similar to a falchion. The phillipino warriors were using long and short weapon combinations previously to the spanish expeditions. They were probably using short and long stick and cutting weapon techniques before the spanish were ever called the spanish. And you're correct, most phillipino traditions were secretive, taught only to direct family members, and were not recorded, save in oral traditions.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2008 23:08:36 GMT
Well I would have picked the two rapiers, I would also want to pick two rapiers against a person wielding a katana and a wakizashi.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2008 7:53:43 GMT
Two rapiers can be very dangerous... to either the opponent or the user Learning to use two-rapiers is a real commitment being just as good with either hand. They must work both separately and together. You must be very aware that your opponent will try to bind both your blades with one swipe. You can also use this against him and set a trap.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2008 13:15:26 GMT
The rapier has the advantage of reach, but the broadsword has the advantage of versatility and, I suspect, strength. No matter how well made they are, I just don't see a rapier blade taking the same abuse as a broadsword blade. I don't know of any actual scenario like the one you laid out, but I do know of one instance of people insane enough to bring small swords to a battle. Killiecrankie, 1689. English troops vs Highlanders. After the initial exchange of gunfire, blades were crossed. Redcoats had small swords. Highlanders had both two-handed claymores and baskethilts. The small swords "snapped like willows" under the onslaught. It is estimated that the English lost about 2000 soldiers in about five minutes of swordplay.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2008 1:44:55 GMT
Very interesting Guy, do you have reference I can read up on.
Some historical rapier blades are only a little thinner then some longsword blades. I was reading today about the rapiers at the Philadelphia Museum of Art all dating to around 1600. Here is a run down of their weights:
Italy............ 3.11 lbs Germany......2.17 lbs Germany......1.75 lbs Germany.......3.84 lbs Italy..............2.90 lbs Italy..............2.77 lbs Germany........2.63 lbs Italy...............3.04 lbs
Most of these are not that flimsy.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2008 18:54:15 GMT
Very interesting Guy, do you have reference I can read up on. Some historical rapier blades are only a little thinner then some longsword blades. I was reading today about the rapiers at the Philadelphia Museum of Art all dating to around 1600. Here is a run down of their weights: Italy............ 3.11 lbs Germany......2.17 lbs Germany......1.75 lbs Germany.......3.84 lbs Italy..............2.90 lbs Italy..............2.77 lbs Germany........2.63 lbs Italy...............3.04 lbs Most of these are not that flimsy. It was in a bio I have on Rob Roy. I'm at work right now and can't remember the author or exact title. I think he cited as his source the memoirs of the Viscount Dundee. I'll try to remember to bring the book with me tomorrow so I can give you more exact info. I know rapiers aren't necessarily lighter than broadswords, but their weight is concentrated towards the hilt. I could see a strong blow to the middle of the blade or towards the tip snapping the blade off. I was just reading a fencing manual the other day. I can't recall who it was. DiGrassi, maybe? It was one of the Italians. He said a rapier could receive a hundred blows near the hilt and not break, but he then went on to advise against cuts because it could break the blade. Then there are the references to broken blades in duels. There seem to be a lot of them.
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Post by rammstein on Mar 19, 2008 19:04:24 GMT
Aye, but didn't digrassi teach dueling tactics?
Rapiers used in war were a fair sight more buff than those carried around like wrist watches through the street.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2008 19:36:36 GMT
I would not take a rapier into war either. It is a civilian weapon without doubt, but under most circumstances the blade will not break when struck. It will break from mettle fatigue over time. That I have seen happen just during a normal thrust. I have also seen rapiers parry heavy blades with just a minimal nick.
If a cut is made near my tip I can not stop it. I don't have the leverage given the length of the blade. By the same token I don't have to stop it. A cut near my tip is out of range and not threat to me. I will yield or avoid it. Someone who is experienced with a rapier will not try to counter a strong cut with a strong cut of his own.
If the cut must be stopped because it is within range, the blade can be angled so even if a cut closer to the debole, it will slide down towards his hilt losing momentum along the way. So it is a manor of deflecting.
A rapier is more likely to be broken by being misused then by another weapon.
There were rapier-like swords used in war too. I many cases they were often rapier hilts with Cut & Thrust blades. They had shorter thicker blades. Mind you the people that carried these fancy toys into war in the 17th century did not too often engage in hand to hand combat themselves.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2008 20:57:36 GMT
Broadswords break too. It's in the steel and in the smith, not in the general design.
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Post by swordboy bringer of chaos on Mar 19, 2008 21:02:42 GMT
it's the warrior that makes the weapon deadly not the other way around broad swords have the power but a rapier is fast and nimble so it comes down to the people useing the blades
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2008 6:49:37 GMT
A agree with you Swordboy. You have to figure out how a sword wants to be used. Even true among sword in the same category. I have used a few rapiers in fencing. Some are better at catching and trapping with your hilt, others are better at angled attacks, some have better point control, some work best from a low guard.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2008 12:45:43 GMT
Okay, here's my source for info on the battle of Killicrankie. The book was Rob Roy MacGregor: His Life and Times, by W. H. Murray. He cites as his source 1714: Memoirs of Viscount Dundee.
Basically, the points I was getting at was that the rapier has the advantages of reach and agility, but the broadsword has strength and versatility. Yes, the strength of the weapon depends on the steel and individual smith but, all things being equal, I think the broadsword would be more durable.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2008 13:34:28 GMT
Aye, but didn't digrassi teach dueling tactics? Rapiers used in war were a fair sight more buff than those carried around like wrist watches through the street. Man, was my memory off on that one. Not only was it not DiGrassi, it wasn't even an italian! It was Swetnam. Do you know of any instances of rapiers being used in battle? I've been searching for some but haven't found any so far. I was always under the impression the rapier was meant for dueling.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2008 16:34:58 GMT
I seem to recall that book on Silver mentioning one noble who made a habit of bringing his rapier to battle. Not close at hand just now. AFAIK, the art consists of getting inside the point without the point getting inside you.
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