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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2008 20:20:11 GMT
Silver had a nationalistic issues. He hated to see Englishmen using Italian rapiers as a matter of patriotism. With that in mind, I pay attention to what he says about broadswords but I ignore everything he says about rapiers.
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Post by rammstein on Mar 21, 2008 2:46:26 GMT
Silver? Biased? Never would have guessed that I don't have any real sources, but there are plenty of beefier cut and thust swords that flirt between rapier and broadsword that have been used for battle. The most notable example is the pappenheimer rapier invented in the 30 years war in the 17th c.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2008 3:33:38 GMT
You hit the nail on the head with the pappenheimer. I was thinking of it too.
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Post by swordboy bringer of chaos on Mar 21, 2008 3:53:05 GMT
I've been eyeing the pappenhrimer design for a while who makes a good one fror kinnda cheap
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2008 4:10:51 GMT
I know rapiers aren't necessarily lighter than broadswords, but their weight is concentrated towards the hilt. I could see a strong blow to the middle of the blade or towards the tip snapping the blade off. I seriously doubt this would happen. The force needed to snap a blade as you are thinking about it requires the sword to be rigidly held, so as not to bend. Try punching a tissue, and see how much it rips. Same concept. The rapier would twist in the hand, bend a bit, and "bleed" off most of the force. Swordboy, define cheap. And what exactly are you looking for in a pappenheimer? My fiancee just got one from James the Just (like this) for just under 250 shipped with a Hanwei practical blade (from AZ to GA). I know Alchem does some, and after that, you may start wanting to look at some of the A&A pieces (though they are above $300). Darkwood is just above the $300 price limit, but they also have some nice pieces. One of the really nice things about James is that since he custom makes the hilts, he can do little changes for you. Hers is actually left-handed, and with straight quillions. There is not as much overall coverage as some of the other swept-hilts I have seen, but it has a very nice aesthetic feel to it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2008 17:03:40 GMT
His preference for the broadsword may be due more to the fact that a cut can kill or disable instantly, while thrusts often take time to stop a foe. See The Dubious Quick Kill for instance.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2008 18:50:02 GMT
His preference for the broadsword may be due more to the fact that a cut can kill or disable instantly, while thrusts often take time to stop a foe. See The Dubious Quick Kill for instance. *nods* Just what I was thinking.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2008 2:45:38 GMT
I agree that a thrust to the body may not stop someones counter attack. Most people who I fence with will still accept a hit from a rapier, even if it is after the fact, if the action was started prior to being killed. What this means is that when you fight with a rapier it is not enough to just hit the other person before he hits you. You can still have a double kill even if one attack is a second behind the other. In order to get a clean kill you must either control the other persons weapon when you attack or close off his line of attack. In this case, you can not be killed after the fact. This is one of the key aspects of being a good rapier fencer. It is not just getting your tip onto the other person first. That is called "poke and prey" in fencing circles.
Against a cutting weapon, if I get my tip into his chest, I would then immediately move my hilt towards his sword blade. This is not something that I would have to think about. With the rapier you generally keep the point in line and move the hilt to block. If I happen to stick my point into my opponent, that should not stop the normal action of moving my forte to block while he tip is in his body.
I am not entirely biased against the broadsword either. I would certainly use it with an off-hand weapon. Either a dagger or a second broadsword and try to close the distance where the longer rapier is less effective. I don't think I have heard of two broadswords being used simotaniously historically but I don't care if it works better for me.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2008 3:08:20 GMT
I know rapiers aren't necessarily lighter than broadswords, but their weight is concentrated towards the hilt. I could see a strong blow to the middle of the blade or towards the tip snapping the blade off. I seriously doubt this would happen. The force needed to snap a blade as you are thinking about it requires the sword to be rigidly held, so as not to bend. Try punching a tissue, and see how much it rips. Same concept. The rapier would twist in the hand, bend a bit, and "bleed" off most of the force. Rapiers seemed to break with a certain frequency in duels.
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Mar 23, 2008 4:55:51 GMT
This classic clip should show them trying to cut a rapier blade, and show the amount of flex it offers.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2008 5:06:53 GMT
What do you define as a broadsword though tsafa? People have different definitions so maybe you can concrete this with your definition?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2008 15:39:30 GMT
Tsafa you seem to be quite experienced with handling of weapons and fencing etc - In fancing "manuals" are there any thrusts that are made to penetrate the heart which would make the opponent die very fast and reduce the chances of double kill?
Like the tai chi masters hit pressure points, nervs/blood veins. Is there anything similar in fencing? Because of course some points of the body are better to hit then others.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2008 15:50:49 GMT
Like thrusts that are a certain/instant kill?
Oh and that video, they hit the swords from the sides? :E, I mean it should be edge to edge.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2008 16:27:11 GMT
Many thrusts are a certain kill and some are instant, getting at those points can be hard though. A thrust or cut to the femoral artery will kill you in about ten seconds. The human body is very vunerable to a sword especially thrusts and cuts, you can even use the flat of the blade to do damage. I know in the use of the jian there are bone breaking strikes with the flat of the blade used like a whip.
The fastest way to finish a fight and finish your opponent for good is to cut the achilles tendon because it doesn't mend or regrow.
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Post by rammstein on Mar 23, 2008 16:44:34 GMT
Tsafa you seem to be quite experienced with handling of weapons and fencing etc - In fancing "manuals" are there any thrusts that are made to penetrate the heart which would make the opponent die very fast and reduce the chances of double kill? Like the tai chi masters hit pressure points, nervs/blood veins. Is there anything similar in fencing? Because of course some points of the body are better to hit then others. In the available manuscripts, many strikes shown are thrusts. Neck, hands, head, chest, etc.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2008 16:59:48 GMT
I am surprised there are not more cuts to the motor function centres of the body as they are lethally effective.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2008 18:13:02 GMT
Yes that seems odd to me as well, cuts/thrusts that disables the opponent instantly.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2008 14:07:12 GMT
Most rapiers just don't cut very well. In fact, some of them don't cut at all.
Brenno, in the clip you provided they hit the rapier with a Viking sword. The rapier does indeed flex - then it snaps in two places and the section of blade still attached to the hilt is badly bent. None of the other swords they tested suffered that amount of damage.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2008 17:26:25 GMT
Don't forget, none of us is an expert at killing people with swords if we've never killed anyone with a sword. That said, here's my favorite dissection of historical duels, with a medical perspective: www.classicalfencing.com/articles/bloody.phpGruesome but informative. *****
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2008 5:47:50 GMT
What do you define as a broadsword though tsafa? People have different definitions so maybe you can concrete this with your definition? This is an important point. Broadsword are thinner then medieval swords. These are 16 th and 17th century weapons that are wider then contemporary rapiers at the time. Broadswords usually have some hand protection as do most rapiers, but not necessarily. As you would expect, there was a lot of variation. Some where almost as wide as medieval swords while some where almost as thin as rapiers. I think the most important distinction here is time period. Neither weapon is going to be used in full plate armor or with a full size shield. I think the biggest difference will be in the way each weapon will be used rather then the weapon itself. Tsafa you seem to be quite experienced with handling of weapons and fencing etc - In fancing "manuals" are there any thrusts that are made to penetrate the heart which would make the opponent die very fast and reduce the chances of double kill? Like the tai chi masters hit pressure points, nervs/blood veins. Is there anything similar in fencing? Because of course some points of the body are better to hit then others. The period manuals do not say how much penetration is necessary. I have seen some sketches in Fabris that show the rapier blade going all the way through the persons torso and out the other side. This is often a hotly debated topic among fencers. The general consensus is that 3 inches is enough. No one really argues for more then that. A lot of people argue for as little as one inch. I really think it depends where you hit the person. I think even a half inch penetration into someones bicep or deltoid will render the arm immobile. You may also go all the way through his stomach and out the back and he may still be swinging at you. The emphasis in the manuals for avoiding double kills is closing off the other person's line of attack or binding his blade with an off-hand weapon so you can safely make your kill. You really have assume that your attack will fail and be defensive when attacking if you want to stay alive. So its not kill him before he kills me... its gain control of his blade so he can't use it against me and then I will kill him.
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