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Post by Turok on Nov 19, 2012 5:24:08 GMT
Hi everyone! As I stated before in an earlier thread, I was hoping that we can create a petition or something to CASHanwei's website or Facebook to make a dao designed for cutting. We need to focus on something that would universally benefit CMA rather than arguing. We can spend the rest of our fleeting internet lives complaining or we can make something happen. I think a solid, good quality cutting dao is in order- for historical CMA, the sub-$300 sword collector, the backyard cutter, and to FINALLY dispel the myth that all Chinese swords are flexible crap. Here is just a little history...I needed a good production dao for years to complete my training but I can never hope to go custom or to get it from DF or even CS. Just something that is under $300, kinda why I'm here at SBG  Anyways, about 4 years ago, Scott Rodell of GRTC and sevenstarstrading designed a jian and a dao (a luiyedao or "Qing" dao) for CASHanwei. The jian, the Hanwei Cutting Sword, is the first production made jian to be historically correct and to be under $300! It's a finely crafted jian and is my favorite sword of all time. forum.grtc.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=795 Originally the dao was planned to come out soon after the jian but recently there was a fire at Hanwei that stopped the plant from producing any new swords for a while and the price for the jian has gone up because of demand. Now when I checked out the FB page for CASHanwei, someone asked about the Rodell dao, and they said that the idea was not even in development after ALL this time!  My suggestion is to create a post, a petition, or something to Hanwei and show how we are still interested in the dao. The Rodell jian is a great product and has been praised by many members already. People are always looking around for a decent dao because most CMA students need to learn dao forms before advancing to jians. So that means there is an even greater demand for a dao. Too bad CS discontinued theirs so now you can buy one for $400+ at DF or Huanou or go custom! I think historical CMA deserve a LOT better than that, times being tough and all!  BTW the other CMA swords that Hanwei sell has already been reviewed before, some people recommend them but others don't. Personnally I wouldn't because Hanwei themselves said the rodell and the dadaos are designed for real cutting (we all know that infamous Home Shopping Katana SLIP :roll: . This has been a long post, but I think we have a lot more to gain than arguing Oh yeah MakChingYuen, here is the "GLOW-IN-THE-DARK" swords I've been telling ya 'bout hahahaha :lol: www.cashanwei.com/product/xtreme-synthetic-single-hand-blade/pr1027 |
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Taran
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Post by Taran on Nov 19, 2012 5:26:01 GMT
Jin-Shi has them already.
Sinosword has good dao of multiple types.
Huanuo has solid dao at several price levels.
Even if Hanwei doesn't (and I'm not convinced they don't) they aren't the only major producer of Chinese swords.
And if the jian coming out these days haven't dispelled the "Chinese swords can be belts" myth, nothing really will.
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Post by Turok on Nov 19, 2012 5:34:02 GMT
yeah, but jinshi is custom made and I'm talking about a production made sword, Taran. There is a long wait time, it's very costly, and it's not intended for the average martial art student because it is made specifically for a person's liking.That old "China sword belt" thing can still be dispeled if there are more accurate reproductions in the market and used properly by CMA students...the Cutting Jian is just a first step...
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Post by Turok on Nov 19, 2012 5:39:42 GMT
Sinoswords is also problematic because they are overseas and therefore it can be hard for a student to select the right sword. Huanou is very expensive and although sevenstarstrading is a good and honorable company, the prices for daos are still way above the $300 mark.
I agree, Hanwei isn't the only major producer for Chinese swords but they really can make a difference because they have virtually no competitors in the CMA sword range as the market is flooded with all kinds of SLOs. Cold Steel is good but their swords have really gone up in value lately too.
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Kuya
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Post by Kuya on Nov 19, 2012 7:10:58 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2012 7:29:06 GMT
I was reading Scott Rodell's forum a while back, and just after the release of the Hanwei Cutting Jian, he mentioned he had designed a Cutting Dao in a willow leaf design for them too. I'm not sure what Hanwei did after that, considering they had the best source of advice on the matter! forum.grtc.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=795I have the Hanwei Rodell Cutting Jian, and have been a fer a decent dao, after looking around I ordered the Huanuo willow leaf sabre from Scott Rodell's site Seven Starts Trading. I wish Hanwei would make a cutting rated dao! |
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Post by Turok on Nov 19, 2012 7:36:26 GMT
Okay Kuya, Kris Cutlery and traditionalfilipinoweapons have recently been making Chinese swords and as I said earlier I'm looking for something for historical CMA. Unfortunately the KC dao lack the proper fittings, looks nothing like any antique dao I've seen, and imho looks like it is half-finished. It doesn't even come with a traditional wrap or historical fittings and I've seen KC make many similar Chinese weapons for years now. Now I really don't want to disrespect KC sword owners or the company but for a sword that is damn well almost $300 (incl shipping), you would expect something more. I mean for almost half of that value you can almost get a more complete Japanese sword like this from KC www.kriscutlery.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=KC&Product_Code=HZKT&Category_Code=katanaBut I guess if you're alright with paying a lot more for less then it's okay :? Again, no disrespect to any KC owners it's just why are katanas with all it's attention to detail (including the tsuba, to the samegawa, the tsukamaki, and even a laquered saya) less than $200 while the dao that costs much more lack so many things? :lol: |
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Post by Turok on Nov 19, 2012 7:53:10 GMT
My thought's exactly too Blackthorn! I like Rodell's sense style too. Huanou's fittings, while they may be accurate for an Imperial Officer of the Qing Empire, are way too gaudy for me. :lol: As if I'm some kind of emperor or if I am royalty! :roll: I like how the Cutting Jian is simple with COMPLETE silver steel fittings, a rosewood scabbard, and a black leather handle wrapped with blood red rayskin. Something practical a real martial artist would use  . I wish I could see the designs for his dao, bet would they would match the cutting sword. |
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Kuya
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Post by Kuya on Nov 19, 2012 8:12:44 GMT
I guess you're fine with having more of your $300 go into bling bling than blade quality and fitment? No offense, you're into aesthetics more. I only recommended that one, because you seemed to be all about a "cutting dao" in your original post. As anyone with a KC dao or 26/29 knows, the money spent is put into the blade, and not mass produced via the China assembly line. The katana you linked is one of the katana made in China for KC that he sells due to it being cheaper to manufacture and they can pump them out. KC 26/29 katana (the ones KC is known for) are made in batches of less than 10 in the Phillipines. The Dao IV is a small batch high QC Filipino forge model, which is why the fittings are in the same plain style as the 26/29 katana. They don't have access to bling bling ornate casts and a big industrial sector.
So let's change your want for a "cutting dao" to a "aestheic dao," since you're not willing to spend money on a quality blade, and would rather have nice looking fittings. Oh, wait... your original post said you wanted something more than just a forms practice piece. You basically want a Huanuo or Hanwei Dao for the price of a Musashi or BudK. Good luck.
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Post by Turok on Nov 19, 2012 9:31:04 GMT
Hi, Kuya I think you misunderstood me. First of all there is a huge price difference here you see and a great difference in quality between daos and katanas. Katanas (not just KC but in almost every other producer) are given much more attention to detail and I mean everything. From the blade itself, to the fittings, saya, hell even the little details like the menuki. For just $300-$330 you can get a japanese sword with customized parts of your choice made of T-10 steel at SBG! Now I don't want to have a debate about T-10 vs differential vs mono vs whatever. The point is that for under $300, the best dao out there in the market is the KC?...which is missing almost everything except the blade?...Use your best judgement. Second as I said with the post to Blackthorn, and I guess you didn't read that; I'm looking for a complete and solid cutting sword. NOT something that looks put together in the last minute with a $300 price tag. Huanou makes good blades but there is too much detail is all in the fittings. The Rodell Jian has simple but effective fittings and is a nice combination and good balance of the two, don't you see? No gold plating, no big bright colors, no looking like royalty, etc. Now I'm NOT all into aesthetics, I just expect SOMETHING...especially at the $300 range...and I'm not all into "bling-bling" or whatever. Maybe I should make a guideline kinda like the 10 Commandments or something hahaha :lol: #1-The sword should be able to cut, be well balance, and made of high carbon steel #2-The sword should have a full tang and be durable #3-The sword should have a complete set of fittings (no bling just there) #4-The sword should be under $300 (probably go at around $240+ like the Cutting sword is) I think this list is pretty much basically what a lot of us SBG members consider before buying a sword. Finally, I don't expect this sword to be as cheap as a Musashi or a BudK. That would be ridiculous :lol: but the sad thing is that any cheap Musashi katana can LITERALLY outperform almost any dao in the sub $300 market!  I'm sure you and I are aware of how IMPORTANT money is, especially at this time. Sword collecting is fun but a very expensive hobby and wouldn't it be great if you got something more for your hard-earned money? Hanwei is famous for making practical swords for the martial artist with a budget, look at the PPK or the Practical Plus. It would sure help the CMA community if we also got a Practical Dao |
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Post by MakChingYuen on Nov 19, 2012 9:45:56 GMT
Thanks for showing me the glow in the dark longsword! Wow, never know those exist! haha!
I agree with the above, somehow we want a cutting dao but don't want it to be too simple and ugly. Meaning that we don't want just a tool, we want it to be an art too but under the $300 range. Now I am thinking if you want some art done, then you are going to have dragonwell grade crap. That's how they did it, with design son the fittings, lower the blade quality then, sigh.. sad!
I think dragonwell is doing better in the past because of the quality. I had my qing dao back then and it's sub $200 range, made in high carbon steel and the sword cut very well after MY OWN SHARPENING. It doesn't come sharp at all, dang. But after sharpening it up, it is pretty good.
Maybe you guys wanna look into those pre made models out there and sharpen it up yourself to test it out on the cutting practice? I don't do a lot of cutting like you guys do, but I surely think the cutting ability is pretty good with my modifications done - sharpening to a convex edge with stones.. then polish, enhance the fittings by putting hockey tape inside to make them non-moving and non-wobbly.. then refinish the whole blade and all the wood.. it's so much better now I love my qing dao! It's like the KC qing dao but not 100% the same. What do you think of these?
fit the 4 commandments!
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Nov 19, 2012 10:02:47 GMT
Handled an earlier one bought late in 2011, really nice and cuts well.
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Post by Turok on Nov 19, 2012 10:18:08 GMT
hahaha, your welcome MakChingYuen! :lol: Isn't that funny or what. The sad thing is that nooone asked for it but they still made it anyway. :shock: That's why I think if we ask for it, they will make 'em. You know, I think the CMA and WMA communities are very similar. Both groups have a looooooooooooooooong history of being misrepresented and having millions of SLOs going around as the real deal. WMA however is improving a lot too and their stuff looks better every year whereas we are still largely left behind... BTW for the uninitiated, our word here at SBG for worthless junk is SLO=Sword Like Object.  And I guess I'm just tired of seeing too much SLOs going around and too many great projects stuck in development hell MakChingYuen, that's a very impressive demonstration. Wish we had more access to daos like that. Have you ever disassembled the hilt to see how thick the tang is? Long time ago in the old forum (or maybe it was at SFI, who knows) there was an incident where a fellow swung an SLO and the blade went flying like a helicopter of doom because of a weak tang. Just imagine taking a swing at something and your blade goes out out like an eagle at some unintended target :oops: |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2012 10:31:37 GMT
Kuya, I can relate to what Turok is talking about. The Huanuo is a bit too decorative for my tastes too, but it's one of the best practical cutters. I thought about the KC sabres, other than being a bit too plain (would prefer something along the style of the Hanwei Rodell Cutting Jian, practical, with a reasonable quality finish), a lot of the construction is quite non-historical, the guard is the most obvious part, not sure about the hilt, or the rest in terms of balance/handling either. To the martial artist, the focus is that it is historical in performance and handling first, looks second.
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Post by MakChingYuen on Nov 19, 2012 10:37:26 GMT
Well to be honest, many SLO (LOL!) out there are cheap and people LIKE to go cheap because they think "ah, what's the difference, it's not for fighting in battle anyway!" then that become the reason why people don't NEED a real sword that can withstand some hard blows. Seriously, it's a norm.. hahaha.. As for the dao I used in the video.. It's not a thick tang, but it does the job enough for me. I think surely a good idea to get more width on the tang for sure but this blade is about $150 range only, what do you expect? AT least it's not like a $400 blade like the damascus tai chi sword and end up like crap! I can chop steel cans with it and the blade doesn't chip or nick, no wobbling and no shaking, hey, good enough eh? As for what you said about that SLO chopping and the blade went flying.. I guess those are rat tail tangs crap? I heard people swing a shaolin "forged" blade and it went like that too but turn out they found the inside was a big scam -- rat tail, hahaha! Shaolin "forged" is just a name, turn out it's a brand name only, sold on the street for cheap, LOL!!! The blade I got here is easily searched up in dragonwell's sites with the world 梅花清刀 , you can take a look and search it up. Some do custom blades on it like you can choose damascus, high carbon, mid carbon and so on.. This one here I use is high carbon and HRC is 57-58, not bad for a cheap $150 range thing though. The weight is awesome for me but many CMA guys hate it cuz it's not flexible!!!! Attachments:
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Post by MakChingYuen on Nov 19, 2012 10:46:27 GMT
Agree, but not many CMA guys will agree with you on the same way there because MANY kungfu schools now only use SLO to teach their students and their students all buy SLO.. so their handling is really weird, and their way to grip a sword isn't going to work on a sword like these you used for cutting... and the most ugly thing I see is.. when SLO start to rattle their fix is - use masking tape and duct tape to wrap the whole thing from guard to handle to pommel and seal the thing up with GLUE. That's what I saw from a few schools that sell SHAOLIN WARRIOR MARTIAL ARTS in Toronto. They are very much like that all around the place too. So if you say "martial artist" I guess you need to be specific and say "real martial arts enthusiast" more to be accurate.
Just like tai chi, most people won't appreciate sturdy blade, most tai chi masters only flavor the flexi-swords and even sword belts. Look how tai chi maters perform their tai chi in China, the chen's villiage.. it's all wushu noodle-blades they are using expect for the staff and spears. How can you convince the world to use something heavy?
I am not joking, this master is good but look at the blade he use for all the videos he produce.. sigh, now all his students buy these things. He is one of the most famous chen's tai chi master out there who I enjoy watching his fist form the most. But.. weapons.. sigh... noodle-swords, pasta-dao,.....!
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Kuya
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Post by Kuya on Nov 19, 2012 11:53:46 GMT
OK, this I can go with. What about the Dao that Sword N Armory sells? Sure it's not the highest carbon steel, but it's a functional cutter supposedly, and it has nicer more traditional looking fittings... as far as sub $100 swords go. It's not a wall-hangar, and also not overly expensive. Other than that, dao are going to be expensive. Even the eBay forges (ST-Swords, Hanbon Swords, etc.) that sell functional forged dao sell them for around $400+. It's just basic marketing and supply and demand. The market for dao isn't big enough for someone to risk mass producing them, and expect a return on investment. And they know that those who really want decent quality dao are going to pay the $400-$1,500 for them. It made me sad when I was shopping for dao, how much more expensive they were than katana due to there just not being much market competition. |
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Post by MakChingYuen on Nov 19, 2012 12:00:40 GMT
Nice one, good price, good look, sharpened too, wow, good buy and you can test the durability out yourself which I think for that price and getting it SHARPENED is a very good deal no matter what! Good stuff!
For the katana, you can buy sub $100 katana with high carbon steel blade and SHARPENED blade too.. holy cow. That's like totally a different world. Rat tails or cheapo katana are like $12-$15 for THREE swords in a set, now what is the cost of the materials?! Even it's rat tail, that's some metal too. hahahaha.. Scary price tags!
I wonder if a forge will release kungfu weapons in a bundle - jian, dao, staff and spear with a NICE fucntional spearhead. Now that's a good combo!
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Just for laugh
That's pretty much how shaolin is nowadays, with wushu based training, noodles swords and that's about everything.. do flips and spins is a must for kids too. Anyway.. see that sword? I see it ALL the time in Toronto's demonstration, and NO people use even a semi-flex dragonwell stuff, sigh..!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2012 12:07:38 GMT
Mak, is he from the original Chen familiy where the original Chen taiji originated from?
The Chen style was more combat oriented than the later Yang style, would be strange for a Chen style taiji poractitioner to use a tinfoil wushu blade! Looks like a lot of focus in China is on performing these days, is that right?
Kuya, that dao is only medium carbon steel, that would possibly be 1045 steel at best, possibly something less, would not cut with that, it would be for forms work if it was built solidly.
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Post by MakChingYuen on Nov 19, 2012 12:16:28 GMT
Yeah he is from the chen's villiage, one of the 4 main master who hold the lineage too. People call him and his 3 other relatives the 4 chen's golden warrior man, haha! He have good history knocking down westerners with his taichi but I never see him fight in real though. It was mostly from people saying it. But I like his forms, it's flowing and well performed... but all that weapon he used really pissed me off a lot. hahaha.. it's like noodles flicking!
That's how it is in China nowadays. You know what I heard the wudang master say? on a TV show, he was teaching a HK guy to use Chinese sword and he said.. thrust like me, fajin, and the sword will make a "sound" flick! the Hk guy tried and cannot make a sound.. and he said, thrust like this and when your jin is out, it will make a sound..
hahahaha! I tried it myself with a normal semi-flex blade and it is easy! Once you get the TRICK, you can do it without any jin, basically it is about speed and timing, that's all. But it's a shame that he is spreading out these "tricks" to people who doesn't know the tricks and call that fajin. You can see how bad kungfu is going in China nowadays. Give him a cold steel gim and tell him to make a sound. If he can make a sound with that sword I will bow to him.. hahahaha! DANG! They don't use SWORDS! They use SLO!
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Anyways, about 4 years ago, Scott Rodell of GRTC and sevenstarstrading designed a jian and a dao (a luiyedao or "Qing" dao) for CASHanwei. The jian, the Hanwei Cutting Sword, is the first production made jian to be historically correct and to be under $300! It's a finely crafted jian and is my favorite sword of all time. forum.grtc.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=795 Originally the dao was planned to come out soon after the jian but recently there was a fire at Hanwei that stopped the plant from producing any new swords for a while and the price for the jian has gone up because of demand. Now when I checked out the FB page for CASHanwei, someone asked about the Rodell dao, and they said that the idea was not even in development after ALL this time! 
. I wish I could see the designs for his dao, bet would they would match the cutting sword.
I'm sure you and I are aware of how IMPORTANT money is, especially at this time. Sword collecting is fun but a very expensive hobby and wouldn't it be great if you got something more for your hard-earned money? Hanwei is famous for making practical swords for the martial artist with a budget, look at the PPK or the Practical Plus. It would sure help the CMA community if we also got a Practical Dao 
And I guess I'm just tired of seeing too much SLOs going around and too many great projects stuck in development hell 
