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Post by Dalaran1991 on Mar 28, 2012 14:04:55 GMT
Every Thursday we do weapon training in our dojo, mostly with bokken but we have one wooden naginata, which one of my friend is very good at. After several, several tries, I never even come close to get past the guard and has always been on the defensive. I find that everything a katana can do, a naginata can do better and the larger sweeping arc is so difficult to avoid/deflect. As with a jo/yari the naginata can also control distance very effectively and many times I thought I had an opening and charge in, only to have my limbs sliced.
Closest thing I came to success is when I drop my bokken and grap his naginata shaft trying to do a disarm on him. That worked thanks to the surprise but then he beat me in hand-to-hand lol.
Anyone has experience fighting naginata? Or is it simply not possible fighting it with a katana? (provided of course that the two opponents are of similar levels)
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Post by Reaver on Mar 28, 2012 14:32:52 GMT
best thing I could think of would be to slice off the naginata's head, but you probably aren't going live.
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Post by Google on Mar 28, 2012 14:38:04 GMT
Look at katori shinto ryu naginata. They don't teach you how to deal with the weapons (kata, other drills) before sparring?
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Post by nddave on Mar 28, 2012 15:00:59 GMT
I would sum it up to the fact he has more experience using the naginata than you do with the katana.
overall as weapons alone, the naginata has the advantage due to reach and multiple attack usage. but really either weapons faults or benefits depend on who's using the weapon and their skills in using the benefits and controling the faults, so to speak.
my method would be to learn the naginata. knowing your opponent and his weapon is the key to properly asserting yourself in a combat situation againt the opponent using that weapon.
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Post by Dalaran1991 on Mar 28, 2012 16:11:26 GMT
That, definitely. In my dojo weapon training are not in and of itself, but rather a compliment to further understanding of Aikido unarmed techniques. The sparring are just some off-practice activities that we do during breaks. That said, many people like my friend have background in kenjutsu, so we take the liberty to do some sparring. I've only trained with katana and not so much with pole weapon. Maybe I'll start to learn how to use the enemy's weapon. In the meantime, anyone has some good links/infos on the naginata and its advantages/weaknesses? Google: I'll try to see what I can find on that ryu. Thanks
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Post by randomnobody on Mar 28, 2012 16:21:22 GMT
As with everything on the internet, I've seen it before...but now that I'm looking for it, I can't find it. There was once numerous videos on YouTube of various Ryu demonstrating kata where the two are opposed, and at least half of those was the katana "winning" the encounter. All I can find now is two or three very short clips where the naginata has the clear advantage. Of course it's possible and there are numerous ways; the thing is that the naginata has longer reach, bigger movements, and two ends to use. The sword is a smaller weapon, which cancels reach, but allows shorter movements and does not hinder the wielder as much. You move around a naginata as it moves around you, you move around a sword in a much smaller circle. Deflect his strike, keep the edge his way, step in, strike. Do it right, you'll get him.
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Post by zentesukenVII on Mar 28, 2012 16:42:22 GMT
I have no formal training, but I have been bokken fighting with friends since I was six. We made a naginata with a 21 inch "Blade" and a 37 inch shaft. So that's about a five foot naginata, not that long but it is hard enough to get around when the wielder knows what hes doing. I use it pretty often too, we usually do everyone (around 3 people) against the one person with the naginata, its either me or my friend, who loves the thing, I prefer a katana. So basically what we do when we are fighting the naginata guy, is circle around him and continue going in two at a time, on his opposite sides to tire him out. If you handled a nag before, you know it reeeallly takes the wind out of you to use for a long time.
Now one on one combat is another story. You just have to get past his blade, close enough to make a cut and win the fight. Make sure you watch your legs because they are an easy target. 9/10 times I lose because I get hit in the leg. So what I try and do is keep the nag above my head using my katana to deflect it, as I charge in as fast as I can to cut my opponent down. I have even done this with a wakizashi, it is definitely possible. Remember, once you get in his comfort zone (past his blade, near enough to cut him) he will use the shaft side if he knows what hes doing. Since the shaft cant really hurt you just by touching it, you can certainly use your body to deflect it, or parry it away, but a direct hit would definitely cause some problems, and could easily knock you down.
I'm telling you practice makes perfect. I take my bokken sparring more seriously than most of my friends, and whatever weapon I'm using I don't lose often. If you use a nag and get the idea of it, fighting against it will be easier. also practice how to constantly push your enemy in circles, confuse his footing and he will certainly falter.
But most of all, getting him tired is the best way haha.
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Greg
Senior Forumite
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Post by Greg on Mar 28, 2012 16:52:59 GMT
There is a video on youtube somewhere of this that was filmed in the 50's/60's. I'm at work right now, so I can't go find it for ya, but it's out there and was in a thread here not to long ago.
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Post by etiennehamel on Mar 28, 2012 17:02:09 GMT
there is a kata on this video naginata vs katana maybe it could be useful. it starts at 7:50
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Mar 28, 2012 17:11:58 GMT
The sword vs. polearm is one common discussion subject. You could try to find threads about it by searching around the Internet. Maybe even buy/rent some books if you are intrested on the subject. Here is Koryu.com's listing of Naginata Ryuha: www.koryu.com/guide/naginata.htmlWhen sparring with bokkens in uncontrolled enviroment, be careful...
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Post by lamebmx on Mar 28, 2012 17:53:15 GMT
Yet another one for take the hard hit from the pole on your way in, protecting yourself from the edge with your steel. Like you said, your closest was a rush in where you lost hand to hand. I do like the idea of big circles to wear the naginata out, but thats a tough gamble playing the edge of his range when he is far from your range.
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Mar 28, 2012 18:06:12 GMT
Many have provided their suggestions. I wanna provide my view, which may be quite different. In order to let you know where my view comes from, I should introduce myself that I've been trained in a bit of Japanese swordsmanship, some years of German longsword and currently Chinese swordsmanship. I teach swordsmanship now for a living. I've been practicing weaponry sparring since 1994. I had dealt with various polearms before, and used polearms myself from time to time just to provide some challenges to my fellow swordsmen.
Just as spear was the king of the weapons in China and every other weapon's goal was to defeat the spear, in Britain swordsman George Silver's mind, a quarter staff was the best weapon in unarmored combat, capable defeating swords and various arms easily.
Thus, you may have to accept the fact that naginata is gonna win most of the time. That's natural. It happened to trained swordsmen as well, in kendo vs naginata matches. That was also why the women guarded their village with naginata when their husbands left for battles. A normal naginata user could defeat a good swordsman.
It's like an assault rifle vs pistol. If the naginata user knew what he/she was doing, you with the katana had virtually no chance except to throw your sword at him/her and run for your life. This is not exaggerated.
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Post by Derzis on Mar 28, 2012 22:14:25 GMT
Against naginata you have very low chances to win with one sword in a sparring between two same level practitioners. Your single chance is to surprise him using katana and wakizashi - to block with one and cut his hand(s) with another.
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Post by zentesukenVII on Mar 28, 2012 23:48:05 GMT
totally, it works very well, but I think the OP was thinking of a katana only scenario.
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Post by Google on Mar 29, 2012 0:40:33 GMT
I would try to cut the arms. If it works, great. If not, that might open a possibility to pressure him and cut the body.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2012 3:07:54 GMT
Welcome to the world of polearms, they have historically been the dominant main battlefield weapons for a reason, and swords were the backup weapons for a reason too! Unless you can get within the naginata wielder's guard, which is damn hard and very risky to do, then the naginata will control the distance, hold you back, and take your legs off. Which is why Japanese infantry started wearing shin guard armour incidentally! Remember, swords were backup weapons. As Lancelot Chan said, it's like assault rifle vs pistol, the polearms were the assualt rifle equivalents of the battlefields of days gone by, and the swords were the sidearm, like an officers pistol (in most cases). The polarms do have the advantage, that's why armies around the world through many centuries used them, even when the gun was invented. You can even find pictures on the web of German cavalry lancers from WWI, with lance in one hand, rifle slung over the shoulder, and gas mask on! angloboerwarmuseum.com/Boer20c_t ... lance.html
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Post by Student of Sword on Mar 29, 2012 3:13:15 GMT
The only few times in the battle field when swords have an advantage over polearms is during the final phase of a siege -- when the attackers breached the castle. Small narrow castle hallway and low ceiling give swordsman an advantage.
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Post by zentesukenVII on Mar 29, 2012 4:25:17 GMT
Oh that's just too cool man.
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Post by randomnobody on Mar 29, 2012 5:05:48 GMT
I've always loved WW1, just because it was that great turning point of modern warfare. There were just ast many guys out there with swords and spears as there were with guns, nevermind those new-fangled machine guns, and airplanes were still brand-new; chemical weapons became a common threat, and trenches were hellholes with no glory to speak of...and all these things in the same few hundred yards of dirt. That photo is a perfect representation of this. Sure, most of these things existed during previous conflicts, but the scale was just different. The Great War, indeed.
...Probably a bit biased because it's the only war I can track my lineage to, courtesy of my great-grandfather's service to Britain, and the stories my grandfather has told me of his experiences.
Anyway, yeah; the spear, and especially glaives, halberds, and their ilk are top-tier battlefield weapons for obvious reasons. But they're not impossible to beat, just really, really hard, and very dangerous. It's been done, though.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2012 6:18:49 GMT
As Student stated, swords would have the advantage in confined or narrow spaces, and when things got too close, as in the case of a crush of two forces virtually on top of each other or face to face, with only a shield seperating them, then that's where short swords came into their best, as demonstrated by the Spartans and Romans, both who used polearms, spears and javelins too.
True, Random, WWI was a strange blend of the modern and ancient, and it brought the first glimpse of the horrors of modern warfare as you mentioned. Many combatants died of diseases from being stuck knee deep in mud in the trenches, with the battlefield being bombed into a bloody, muddy mess where nothing living remained. To quote General Sherman "...war is hell"
I've seen koryu schools which teach naginata, where they are specifically taught how to beat a swordsman, and also ones which teach sword techniques against naginata, so these techniques have been developed, they would have, as swordsmen would have been unfortunate to face naginatas in warfare, but as people have mentioned, you're at a disadvatage from the beginning going against a polearm with a sword.
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