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Post by Bushido on Jan 23, 2012 23:48:20 GMT
Please help me find the ultimate straight blade saber type sword! I really like the simplicity and the look of a straight blade. The elegant design, the minimalistic and simplistic look which speaks functionality and the light design which enables lightning fast handling are just some of the aspects which I find attractive about these swords. However, I've yet to find a sword that has all of the qualitys I seek. What I want is a straight, double edged saber or smallsword type blade without fancy engravings or swirly rapier hilts. I want it to have a thin blade, yet not so thin as to make it a designated stabbing weapon. why are these types of swords so hard to find? For instance, I really like the look of the NCO sword from windlass: kultofathena.com/product.asp?ite ... icer+Sword The blade looks great. It's thin, straight, flexible, fast and aesthetically appealing in its simplicity. The whole thing looks tasty. Only problem is that it is, for the most part, single edged. Pity... Also, the hilt and the guard looks... Stupid. Partly because it's a compromise, usable for both left and right handed swordsmen. It looks crosseyed, non-defined. I don't like it one bit. The naked steel scabbard on the other hand is pleasingly simple to look at, very nice. Also, the price is extremely tempting... Yes, as always the cost is an important factor. This guard/hilt on the other hand: kultofathena.com/product.asp?ite ... icer+Saber It looks comfortable, ergonomical and well defined. It knows which hand it belongs in. Possible on the swirly/fancy side, but on the other hand it looks meaty. The guard is wide and well shaped, it looks like it would do a proper job of protecting your hand. I definitely prefer this design to the NCO sword. But then there's the blade... Single edged, engraved, curved (although this sword is less curved than a lot of other sabers, which makes it look less bad. But I still prefer straight blades) too much fanciness overall... Top complicated. Also, the scabbard is... Too much. It's gold, black, gold, black etc... I prefer naked steel. kultofathena.com/product.asp?ite ... oons+Saber This is another story. The guard is simpler in its design, but I feel like it's too hollow. The confederate cavalry officer saber guard is tighter and more filled out between the loops, which gives is a sturdier more compact look that I prefer. This one is too open. The hilt however looks even better than the confederate cavalry one. It looks more functional, where the cavalry has an open leather back the dragoon is supported by a brass backbone which I think adds to the functional and more durable look. It looks like it would hold together nicely. The blade is almost straight, which is good. But once again it's a single edge. Also, what is up with that birds beak of a point? Reminds me of a pterosaur: therisingsunsangrag.files.wordpr ... osaur1.jpg The scabbard is once again naked steel, a nice feature. kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=CS88CHRThis rapier blade looks nice. Straight, simple, double edged, nice point... Possibly slightly on the thin side of my preferences, but hey... However, I can't stand the rapier hilt. It looks completely dysfunctional, like it would get in the way of itself no matter what you try to do with it. It's too posh, fancy and swirly to look even close to functional. Begone with ye I say! If you take all of these swords and combine their strengths and remove their respective negatives, I think we'd have a winner! Why oh why won't anyone make this blade of blades, this titan, this vexing and illusive dream sword of mine?? Or... Has it been made? Is there such a thing as a sword which fits my every criteria? Any and all pointers in the right direction would be very much appreciated! Regards, Anton. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2012 3:30:42 GMT
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Post by Dave Kelly on Jan 24, 2012 3:57:12 GMT
You can pretty much discount sabers from your discriptor as they are almost universally backswords ( single edged except for their stabbing blade at the point. There is this: www.kultofathena.com/product.asp ... tton+sword Double blade that can be sharpened. Substantial blade. Big cavalry weapon. 3 pounds; but, pretty well balanced. The NCO sword you mentioned is a throwback to the 18th Century pallasch which was served up in several light to heavy styles. Not aware of a replica in period for it though. Then there is the Spadroon. Small sword with a military cut and thrust blade: www.historyrelics.com/proddetail ... egory_Id=4 WeaponEdge looks good, but their product is underveloped as combat weapons. ( Weaponedges aren't very sharp ) Windlass has a heavy duty small sword available thru MRL that is on my wish list at the moment: www.museumreplicas.com/p-1746-18 ... sword.aspx |
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Post by Bushido on Jan 24, 2012 4:59:49 GMT
Hi! Thanks for the input! Any and all pointers are very much appreciated:)
I like the blades on all of those. Some might be a bit on the wide side, but I can live with that as they are straight, true and double edged. The guards and handles are however not at all what I'm after... I don't know why, but I've just never liked rapier hilts. They look somewhat impractical to me. What I like about the saber handles is that they look comfortable, and the guards are simply nice to look at. I like the general shape, that "half heart" or whatever you want to call it. I think it looks nice. I know from experience that it is also practical, as I've got an early 20th century rapier with the exact kind of hilt that I like, and I've never felt that the guard has gotten in the way of any of the moves I used the sword for. Mortuary hilts and other typical rapier style hilts however look like they would be very much in the way of almost any kind of slashing or cutting motion one might try. I mean, there's pointy things everywhere! :lol: What I really would like is one of those blades on one of the hilts I referred to in my first post:)
Thanks for the help!
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Post by Bushido on Jan 24, 2012 5:14:15 GMT
Hi! Thanks very much for the input  Yes, I've come to realise that what I'm after isn't exactly a saber. Nor is it a rapier, or a smallsword, or anything as it would seem. I want a mixture, with the best part of all of the different types perfectly blended to my tastes. Maybe my only option is to go custom made? I Like the blade of the patton sword, and I like the general shape of the hilt. I just wish the guard was a bit smaller and a bit more ornate (I really like the half heart with the open three part swirly things whatever they are called). Would've liked the whole sword as such a lot more if the scabbard was steel and the handle was leather wrapped (possibly some wire wrapping as well might be nice). But the blade is precisely what I'm after! the spadroon looks a bit wide for my tastes, and I like the hilt less than the patton. And I would've like the blade to be slightly more tapered, running down to a pointer tip over the entire length of the blade rather that acutely finishing with the tip after the entire edge of the sword being more or less straight. I don't know, it just hits me as a very square blade... Would've looked nicer with more taper. That windlass smallsword is getting very close indeed! If only... The little details you know... The handle... The guard should be just a bit more rounded and swept to the side rather than being centered... Argh, this is so difficult! I'm sorry for being picky, I am probably a bit hard to please... But I really appreciate the help, thanks! You wouldn't have any idea where to go for an all out custom blade? just to cover all options I mean, one might just as well ask what's possible (and at what cost). |
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Post by Bushido on Jan 24, 2012 5:20:22 GMT
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Lunaman
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Post by Lunaman on Jan 24, 2012 5:24:19 GMT
Get an A&A custom if you're that damn picky. Much pricier that the other offerings listed so far, but that's where you've got to go when you're uncompromising. Though you do seem to be dismissing several designs for silly reasons IMO (X hilt looks uncomforable, Y hilt looks impractical, the scabbard that comes with Z is prettier, etc. etc.) This is along the lines of what you've described, but they can make a custom (almost) anything with historical grounding: www.armor.com/custom922.html |
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Post by Dave Kelly on Jan 24, 2012 5:38:35 GMT
The three bar hilt you admire is the French M1822 three bar half basket hilt. As for custom maker the one shop I can think of with the widest range of style craft is Chris Poor's Arms and Armor. They do all sorts of rapiers already. Asking them to match and balance your blade with a known style of hilt wouldn't be too much of a challenge for them. Might be billfold shock for you though. :lol: Only cutler in Europe I can think of who might have the experience is Vlad Cervenka. Have and Cherish his horsemans rapier sword. This is something not quite to your desired specs but another close one: French 1882 Dragoon saber. The hilt is right. The handling on this sword is beautiful. But it is a backsword. There is no replica for this. Have to get an original. They aren't that expensive. ( Dragoon is the middle one. )  |
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Post by Bushido on Jan 24, 2012 5:49:07 GMT
I am, yeah. But still, no harm in asking if anyone knows of a company that produces the exact sword I'm after, right? Silly as my reasons may be to you, it's all about personal preferences. I want a sword that I can use, look at and love from every aspect of it. Therefore I'd say it would be silly of me to compromise on some of the more prominent parts of the sword. It's not only a question of uncomfortable or impractical, although I'm sure the reason I feel like I do is founded somewhere within said beliefs it is a matter of simply not liking the design. As I said, I've never liked rapier hilts. If I donät like them, I don't want them on my sword. It is definitely along the lines of what I'm after, I will check with them to see if they can perfect the design for me! Thanks! |
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Post by Bushido on Jan 24, 2012 5:53:01 GMT
Yes it is, thanks for telling me the name! Knowing what to search for greatly simplifies things! Thanks for the tip, I'll go ahead and ask! I'm afraid you're right, but there's no harm in asking is there...  Hopefully, if it's a simple customization, they won't charge me too much :lol: Thanks for the tip, I'll check him out as well! You're right, that is very much my kind of sword! I might be able to overlook the fact that it is a backsword, seeing as the rest looks about right. I'll have to start looking for an original then! Thanks! |
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Lunaman
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Post by Lunaman on Jan 24, 2012 6:04:23 GMT
Whatever, mate. Personal preferences are fine, but I much appreciate if they are phrased as such from the outset, rather than you condemning designs you find unattractive as inherently flawed instead.
"I don't like the way it looks, so I don't want one" is a much more palatable justification than "mortuary hilts and rapier hilts look like they would get in the way of cutting movements (even though I've never held one) and I mean, where do you put your hand? There's spikey bits everywhere, LOL, herp derp, LOL."
Don't mind me, I'm tired and drunk. But your posts would still ruffle the feathers of anyone who dearly loves rapiers and mortuary hilts and the like. They just wouldn't be as mouthy about it. (Does it count as being 'mouthy' if you're typing? :?: )
Anyway, as Dave and I already said, A&A could likely cater to your needs, but you've got to be prepared for your wallet to be miffed at the prospect. Cheers.
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Post by Bushido on Jan 24, 2012 6:21:46 GMT
And I'd appreciate it if you would differ between condemning designs and condemning other peoples preferences. As I stated in my original post, I'm after a double edged cutting blade. A rapier, even though it may have edges and wears the label of "cutting and stabbing weapon", does not cut in the sence of the word that most swordsmen are familiar with. Do a youtube search for rapier cutting and you will see what I mean. Rapiers don't cut things to bits so much as they make shallow surface cuts. These kinds of cuts require a different technique, and the difference in technique shows through in the difference in hilt design. A cutting blade, as in the sence I'm after, fitted onto a rapier hilt would be unfit for teh cutting techniques fit for the blade, and therefore, for my intents and purposes, a rapier hilt IS flawed. I for one have handled both rapiers and sabers, and I've done a fair bit of traditional french fencing applying rapier technique as well as backyard cutting applying cutting edge technique. I speak from personal experience when I say that rapier hilts are impractical when it comes to the kind of usage that rapiers don't normally see, the kind of usage that I will put my future sword to. Although, this is once again my personal preference. Other people may think differently, and they are fully entitled to do so. "Pointy things everywhere" was my way of trying to express my thoughts with a bit of comedy, and if this somehow offended you I sincerely apologize.
I'm all about functional design. Therefore, if I find a designs unattractive, it's probably down to the fact that I find it impractical. That's what I was trying to say by: "It's not only a question of uncomfortable or impractical, although I'm sure the reason I feel like I do is founded somewhere within said beliefs". In other words, I find it imporactical and therefore it is not attractive to me. Imagine the sexiest babe in the world, who's a total semprini. I would not want her for my girlfriend no matter what she looks like, because she's a semprini. She's unattractive to me, no matter how she looks. Same thing.
People who love rapier hilts are in their full right to do so, and I see nothing wrong with it. It is once again a personal preference, I have mine and others have theirs. No disrespect intended.
You put your hand on the hilt, the part that matters if where you go from that. What kind of wrist and arm movements you make and to where you thrust or swing the sword. Depending on the fencing style, some designs are fit and some are not. It's a matter of intents and purposes.
As I said, I sincerely apologize to anyone who was offended by what I said about rapier hilts and I hope my explanation above sorts some of the misunderstandings out.
I'll make an inquiry with A&A, thanks for the tip!
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Lunaman
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Post by Lunaman on Jan 24, 2012 6:33:56 GMT
Maybe when you've learned a bit more about swords you'll come back to this thread and realize why your comments were received the way they were, and why the content of your last post does not excuse them.
Until then I can only wish you well, and good luck with finding the sword you want. We're supposed to be friendly here as often as we can, and that is where I certainly dropped the ball. My apologies.
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Post by Bushido on Jan 24, 2012 6:45:03 GMT
I admit that I don't know very much about swords, but what I do know and what I feel is based on experience and not prejudice despite what you might think.
Well, I can only apologize. If you can't excuse me no matter what, then I'm sorry. Might I ask what, specifically, why my explanation is insufficient and what there is about swords that I must know before I can see it?
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Sean (Shadowhowler)
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Jan 24, 2012 7:01:33 GMT
:? I'd say no good can come of further conversation on this subject between you two... I'd advise it to be best to just walk away from it...  |
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Post by Bushido on Jan 24, 2012 7:02:20 GMT
I think you're right about that Sean...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2012 13:09:30 GMT
From your initial description, I thought you meant one of these, the Scott Rodell Hanwei Chinese Cutting Jian  Now, there's a few catches with sword design. Sounds like you like sabre handles. Sabres hilts are oriented to cut from one side, so they probably arent the optimum design for a double-edged blade. Looks like you want a sword that can really cut, and there's a trade-off between blade mass, cutting power and speed. A smallsword is damn quick, but the lighter blade doesn't give it enough heft for cutting (it's a pure thrusting blade). There are some quick sabres out there, even with lighter blades they get a fair bit of cutting power from the weight distribution in the blade, and the curved blade shape. Ultimately, we have to compromise on one point or another, or we simply get more than one sword. I really like sabres, smallswords, rapiers all for different reasons. The cutting jian offers everything you ask for within reason, it's fairly fast, but not lightning fast, and doesn't have a sabre hilt. A sabre has everything you want except a double edge. Incidentally, I think your words didn't come out right when talking about rapier hilts. I realise you just meant you don't like the look... Rapier handles are perfectly designed for what rapiers are meant to do, and the elegant swept hilt rapiers are one of the most beautiful swords in my mind! Seriously, you've been bitten by the sword bug, and as we all soon realise, no one sword does it all, so we end up with 'collections'. Dave the sabre guru literally has a whole sword museum. My recommendation is, get a good sabre(s) that you like - you could get yourself a Dragoons saber, a confederate cavalry saber and a patton sword! Get yourself a lightning fast smallsword too! By the way, how does this grab you, sabre with 3-bar hilt, and the same scabbard as the NCO sabre scabbard that you like:  It's the Cold Steel 1830 Napoleon Sabre - it's pretty good for the price, and it might be a good place to start. If I could find one ultimate sword, I'd only have one sword in my collection, but alas, they all have their good points, so I've got dozens! :lol: |
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Post by Bushido on Jan 24, 2012 19:18:04 GMT
I do like Jians, and I will get me one of those some day! That indeed I do... I'm well aware that sabre hilts are not optimized for double edge blades, but I really like the symmetry and look of a double edge and thus want one anyhow. I am however, as I said before, prepared to compromise on this point as it is more of an aesthetical apect. If I can find me a stright bladed sabre (don't like the curved blades so much) that's perfect in every way except for the double edge I simply wouldn't care and buy it anyhow. As you say, smallswords are extremely quick but not meant for cutting. I already have a smallsword, and incidentally it ticks all of the boxes when it comes to looks. saber hilt, three bar guard, steel scabbard etc. It is however a dedicated stabber, which is why I would now like to find a sword which I find equally excellent when it comes to looks but with a different type of usage purpose. And that's exactly what I was trying to say in my above post. The rapier is designed for a different type of usage than what I want from "this" sword, and therefore a rapier is not what I want. And ultimately, the rapier hilt is designed to fit the rapier usage, so therefore it wouldn't be suitable for what I intend to do with this sword. I'm all about functionality, and if it's not only about the functionality I am willing to compromise (as in the case of the double or single edge). But for this sword I simply don't want a rapier hilt. If I were on the other hand in the market for a rapier, a dedicated stabber, I would go for a rapier hilt exactly because it is perfectly intended for rapier use. And I think rapiers are nice to look at. Some are less nice than others, but I don't hate rapiers in general as some people seem to believe Here's a rapier I would very much like to own someday: www.kultofathena.com/product.asp ... ilt+Rapier Now that's pretty, and it is pretty simply because it works for what it is intended to do. A rapier hilt on a sabre blade I think we can all agree would be a bad idea, right? We are however drifting away from the subject once again... :lol: I've been bitten for a long time, and incidentally I have a small (note small) collection of swords, weaponry and militaria... I also make miniature functional replicas of naval cannons in my spare time I've seen dave's pictures, that is one impressive collection! I think what's gotten to me this time is simply the idea of finding the one sword that ticks all of my pre-set boxes (in this general area that is), a sword which looks the way I want and does what I want. I too realize that there is no such thing as an ultimate sword, because I like various types of sword and combining them all together would be stupid. I like Katanas very much, but I'm not after a katana this time and therefore I wouldn't try to put a sabre hilt on a katana blade for instance :lol: Then there's always the matter of cost... I'm a low income working extra student, and this will be the first sword puschase I've been able to justify in a long time... I guess that's partially why I want it to be perfect. I like the look of that saber, but there are minor details which I would like to correct before I love it. Straight rather than curved blade for instance. And I think the guard is a little thin... Meatier bars would'bve looked better, but that's nit-picking. I don't want one sword only in my collection, that would be boring! I do however want each and every one of the swords in my collection to be perfect |
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Post by Kilted Cossack on Jan 24, 2012 20:21:15 GMT
I could be entirely wrong (wouldn't be the first time!), but as I read the gripe against rapier hilts, I was thinking of the whole "finger over the quillions" thing. It sounds to me as if Bushido is looking for something that doesn't exist on the reproduction market: a late model sword with a bowl guard, fitted with a broadsword blade. I might suggest browsing this thread, at Myarmoury.com, dedicated to 19th century swords. There are a few that seem to fit Bushido's parameters. www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=22276If you'd be willing to accept a backsword with a sharpened back edge, Bushido, it might be easier to find what I think you're talking about. However, these are scarce in our market. |
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Post by Bushido on Jan 24, 2012 20:39:17 GMT
The finger thingy is part of the issue, yes.
You might be right about that, but it would have to be a thing broadsword blade so as not to hinder the handling and make it too heavy...
Couple of interesting swords in that thread, thanks!
Seeing as how I'm low on options I would be willing to compromise, yes. But as you say, there aren't a lot of those around either...
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Hopefully, if it's a simple customization, they won't charge me too much :lol: 
