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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2008 1:03:36 GMT
A friend of mine just returned from Japan put a question to me that I feel should be argued on a greater scale so here goes . While a friend of mine was in Tokyo recently, he found himself in the middle of a bit of a foray that he described as: While in a shopping mall in central Tokyo, people started shouting and as my friend(we will call him Wazza) understood Japanese, there was a crazy person waving a knife at a shop assistant in a kitchenware shop and people were freaking out big time. Someone had got a policeman who ran to a 'tardis-like' police box (they still them have in Japan) and grabbed a 50" Jo. The standard police in Japan are trained in Kendo and Judo only. Only the Riot police train in Jojutsu. Anyway the copper confronted the crazyknifeman, as per his kendoka training went into Jodan(sword, in this case Jo, raised over his head) and tried to cut down. With the crazyknifeman subsequently sticking the knife into the coppers lung at a low angle. Result, policeman falls to the ground, knifeman continues on rampage until subdued by others. My question being where was the policeman's failing ? Was it in his art or his self ? (there is no ONE answer to this question, all I am trying to do is stimulate reasoning )
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Post by oos3thoo on Mar 16, 2008 1:19:29 GMT
I think it was a bit of both.
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Post by guthbrandr on Mar 16, 2008 1:19:56 GMT
In my opinion it would be in his SELF.Thanks for the thinker.
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Post by tajima on Mar 16, 2008 1:20:09 GMT
Hmm.
If I were the policemen, I would have waited and done swishes toward off said "crazyknifeman" and then give him a subsequent whacking.
However, if his art teaches him to jump straight in with the Jo, I assume it must be his art.
This could turn out to be a rather good discussion, methinks.
Thanks, -Tajima
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2008 1:28:09 GMT
It seems like police don't get sufficient training in any country these days.
I'd say it isn't the policeman's fault - if he was following his training (which seems incomplete/inadequate preparation and could warrant attention - was it individual or systemic?) then what else was he supposed to do? It might be easy to second guess the policeman and say "well I would have started in chudan or another kamae" but I'll bet police people in Japan have far more things to do in their day than become honed martial artists...
Perhaps he could have waited for backup and/or tried to keep the person at bay, but I don't know what their standard operating procedures are.
So after all that... I think I probably missed the point. Is Kendo and Judo the right training for someone to be using a Jo against a knife-wielder? If they don't train for specific situations like this then I would say that these arts are not the most relevant. That said, with in depth knowledge of any art one can apply martial skill to anything, however, as I mentioned before police people on a day to day basis will have many things to worry about other than perfecting their Kendo or Judo. I feel training in a style more specific for their likely encounters would be advantageous. How often are they facing off with crims in gi on mats or with shinai in bogu? (Frivolous example, considering I don't know how they train!)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2008 8:08:57 GMT
As the policeman maybe did not have the training to properly harness the weapon in his hand, it was about as useful as a Fondu set. While I feel he may of been resorting to his direct training, the regimes in place in Kendo don't really allow for individual improvization. This can hinder a realife situation, unless one can move with the moment. No art is definitive and no individual is perfect, this is why we train all our lives. Maybe he should have put the shinai down to lull the attacker into thinking he had the advantage; maybe he just needed more training for the situation for which he placed his life The world is literally full of maybes....
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2008 8:36:25 GMT
The individual failed. A 50" jo? Heck of a reach there. Keeping the tip aimed at the face and stabbing like spear would have kept the perp at bay. At some point the perp could have been kept cornered and controlled if the tip made contact to push him back. Aim for the face and throat alternating with the weapon arm. And if it was in a kitchenware shop, plenty of implements could've been thrown or held to beat the attacker off with. Especially if a piece of robust kitchenware, like a frying frying pan wielded Kill Bill style, was used to club the weapon arm and head. It sounds like the policeman did not have practical and realistic training. A pity.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2008 18:36:26 GMT
Tough question - good one for discussion. If this were in the US - then what probably would have happened is that a police officer or officers would have cornered the suspect and shot him. There was an incident here in San Diego where a suspect wielding a screwdriver was shot by the police - turns out the person had a mental disability. Too many times we hear of similar situations where a person is shot by police instead of subdued. Too many times is the use of deadly force used when other methods might have been employed. Some folks may say that the suspects got what they deserved and were rightly shot. Some folks severly criticize police for the use of excessive deadly force. This criticism may be well founded - sometimes the officers involved really don't have a good basis of training and too readily resort to deadly force because they are afraid or don't know how to use another method. It seems to be no win situation for police: blamed for shooting too often too soon, and yet they themselves get hurt if they try something else. In the case of the Japanese police officer - it sure seems to be to be a sign of training. The jo is a highly effective weapon for law enforcement and was historically used so in Japan. It comes down to training - either with alternate methods or a handgun. If you don't train, you can't expect a police officer to be effective in the field. It may be that with limited budgets and workloads, police officers everywhere don't get the amount of field training they should. Hence to over reliance in the US for gadgets like tasers or the use of a gun when confronted with a violent suspect. Seems like for the amount of money spent on guns or gadgets, more could be put into training programs using a $20 stick of wood! But - that's just my opinion. Erik
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2008 19:42:26 GMT
I think it's his self part.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2008 20:17:39 GMT
I would have used waki-no-kamae.
Or a stun gun.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2008 21:20:50 GMT
Is the use of firearms in Japan allowed for law enforcement use now? I wonder if using a spear or naginata would have made the perp think twice. Even a jutte, iron truncheon, collapsible baton, or riot baton would have been quite an effective equalizer against a knife wielding opponent... with proper training. Maybe the Japanese police need some FMA training.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2008 2:36:37 GMT
I would say self
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2008 6:14:01 GMT
This is an interesting discussion I think self is to blame in this situation, no matter how good or highly ranked you are in the dojo unless you practice how to use your skills in a real life situation you are no better of than someone without any training. I really don’t see how the knifeman managed to get the upper hand against a Jo, unless he was very skilled in Tant-jitsu but if he was I think he would be of the right mindset not to go crazy in a kitchen shop. Still something about this just doesn’t add up to me. If I was the cop I would have thrusted at the perp a couple of times to see if he backed off, if not I would have gone with a full strength strike to the side of his knee, after that the last thing on his mind would be stabbing anyone. Did the police officer survive?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2008 9:51:35 GMT
Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but the Jo can be used as either a quarterstaff or a sword, you can't really say he wasn't using it properly.
I think he probably just hesitated. It's a huge leap, mentally, between kata and fighting someone intending to really hit you, I imagine it's an even larger one between that and fighting someone truly intending to do you harm. It's also hard to do real harm to someone else, maybe especially in the modern Japanese culture, where, for example, killing someone is illegal for any reason, even self-defense. That is why your budo should be practiced earnestly, to bridge that gap, always with that mindset that your life could be on the line.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2008 12:52:34 GMT
Sounds like the officer had bad timing (and judgement) . Are those police required to train at regular intervals? No amount of training in the past will be effective much later. My old football coach used to say "You will play on Friday night how you have practiced during the week" Kinda like police over here with a gun, some go to the range once a week, others once a month. You know who is going to be a better crackshot. Farmer
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Mar 18, 2008 14:07:13 GMT
I'd say his art: in so much as until you master the art, you can only do what you are trained to do. Only to a master can the art become self, and then be truly unique to the situation. Until that time he just follows a protocal, which will never be particular to a certain situation.
Without any knowledge of what the protocols may be, that is my assumption.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2008 16:55:28 GMT
Very critical situation, maybe the officer should have tried to be passive first but stern , if the offender sees a violent response then that could send him even further off the edge. With a 50" staff the knees could be a possible target ,as it would be hard to stand a wield a knife at the same time, once downed a better ground attack could be made. Just my two cents. If the officer had the proper training then his training didn't fail him,he himself had failed.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2008 5:58:36 GMT
And i'm guessing that there's a ton of individual improvisation in kata training? [/sarcasm]
I'm not sure what this has, if anything, to do with kendo/judo. It's far too situational. One could replace his training in kendo/judo with that of jodo, and then replace the jo with a bokken and the same result could happen. Or maybe the crazy-knife-fighter was really good. Or maybe this particular policeman just sucked. Either way - it's the individuals that made the result - not 'kendo' - if that's what you're trying to get at.
Which is why I don't take anyone seriously who says things like "[martial art A] is so much better than [martial art b].". or "If that guy did [martial art x], he'd've been alright!".
That's right up there with saying "Man, if that police officer had been Bruce Lee, he would've OMGWTFPWNED that guy!"
I've played with guys that have done wrestling for years that I could take in a wrestling match blindfolded - does that mean wrestling has failed? I know other guys who've done wrestling for sometime that could literally just casually mop the ground with my face. And the same is true of all martial arts and the practitioners thereof.
Martial arts are just teachings - that's all they are. They cannot fail, even in the slightest, if their students learn from them.
So where does the problem lie? With the police officer or with kendo/judo? Neither. The problem lies in whatever negligence led a psycho to grab a knife and hurt people. Whether he wasn't taught right, or just rejected good morals and ethics - that's the problem.
To be honest, it's my perception(key word there) that ChopChop is using this as an attack on Kendo in general based on what has been raised in another thread regarding police training in japan consisting of it, and so forth. And frankly, I find that to be... well... childish at best.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2008 8:55:36 GMT
And i'm guessing that there's a ton of individual improvisation in kata training? [/sarcasm] kata is not done for points or to win mate, it is done to maim and kill[/answer]. I'm not sure what this has, if anything, to do with kendo/judo. It's far too situational. One could replace his training in kendo/judo with that of jodo, and then replace the jo with a bokken and the same result could happen. Or maybe the crazy-knife-fighter was really good. Or maybe this particular policeman just sucked. Either way - it's the individuals that made the result - not 'kendo' - if that's what you're trying to get at. Which is why I don't take anyone seriously who says things like "[martial art A] is so much better than [martial art b].". or "If that guy did [martial art x], he'd've been alright!". That's right up there with saying "Man, if that police officer had been Bruce Lee, he would've OMGWTFPWNED that guy!" I've played with guys that have done wrestling for years that I could take in a wrestling match blindfolded - does that mean wrestling has failed? I know other guys who've done wrestling for sometime that could literally just casually mop the ground with my face. And the same is true of all martial arts and the practitioners thereof. Martial arts are just teachings - that's all they are. They cannot fail, even in the slightest, if their students learn from them. So where does the problem lie? With the police officer or with kendo/judo? Neither. The problem lies in whatever negligence led a psycho to grab a knife and hurt people. Whether he wasn't taught right, or just rejected good morals and ethics - that's the problem. Thank you Adam for your response. To be honest, it's my perception(key word there) that ChopChop is using this as an attack on Kendo in general based on what has been raised in another thread regarding police training in japan consisting of it, and so forth. And frankly, I find that to be... well... childish at best. Hmmm, just when I thought I knew myself it looks like once again Adam knows others in other countries more than they know themselves. When you go off on one of your semi-religious 'Adam and Eve' rants what do I ever post about you ? Just remember it takes one to know one ! Why is it you think I am against Kendoka, please enlighten me I AM a member of the Aust. Kendo renmei, have you not heard of seitei jodo ? Please if you may,(as I have been asked to do) leave the personal accusations and unfounded bias to PM only. I post a question, all I ask you post is your answer.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2008 16:41:10 GMT
So where does the problem lie? With the police officer or with kendo/judo? Neither. The problem lies in whatever negligence led a psycho to grab a knife and hurt people. Whether he wasn't taught right, or just rejected good morals and ethics - that's the problem. To be honest, it's my perception(key word there) that ChopChop is using this as an attack on Kendo in general based on what has been raised in another thread regarding police training in japan consisting of it, and so forth. And frankly, I find that to be... well... childish at best. I think this thread is quite legitimate and there is no childishness implied at all. Nor do I see it as an attack. It is purely a technical inquiry and maybe it belongs in the SGB miscellaneous forum. Good morals and ethics as a subject is tangential to this inquiry and maybe it belongs to another thread. The thread is not addressing such an issue so it is best to stay on topic. The knife is very difficult to defend regardless of the jurisdiction. The law enforcement, military, and security community have exclusively trained for techniques and counters for such a weapon alone. Even so, it is still very difficult to defend even with the proper tools and resources. It is serious business. There is the adage in the hardcore self defense community that some believe. Unless one has actually survived an actual assault with a knife or an actual knife altercation one has no experience in defending against or fighting with a knife. My experience has not dealt with such an altercation so it is all theoretical with me. It is the same with my colleagues with an exceptional few who work as bouncers, law enforcement, or have survived attempted muggings from a knife. Nine times out of ten we have trained with a rubber knife and been able to penetrate the defenses of most people who train without any weapons and focus only on empty hand methodology. It takes somebody who is very good to counter even the most amateur of knife wielders empty handed. At least consistent and repetitive training allows for survival. Training and armed with weapons it usually is an equalizer with the proper realistic and repetitive training against a knife assault. Even those who use firearms have either died or barely survived not being unscathed against a knife attack. They do not take into account realistic training against an actual knife attack. Even then, sparring barely closes the gap to realism. This is not a fighting or duelling - this is dealing with an actual assault from a real knife.
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