Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2008 17:39:00 GMT
Martial arts are just teachings - that's all they are. They cannot fail, even in the slightest, if their students learn from them. I am presuming this is an opinion and does not necessarily reflect all views of what the intended use of these systems are for.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2008 9:40:24 GMT
Let's look at 'individual improvisation' for a moment... ( a la dictionary.com)
Individual: Marked by or expressing individuality; distinctive or individualistic:
Improvisation: a performance given extempore without planning or preparation
So, by definition, Kata is about as far away from individual improvisation as you can get - as it consists of prearranged moves agreed upon by both participants that is never deviated from.
Whereas giving two guys shinai to hit each other, and bogu so they don't get seriously hurt and telling them to go at it seems quite a bit more open to individualism or improvisation.
Just the way I see it I guess. After all, we have The Mighty Sensei ChopChop, the undisputed master of all things Koryu disagreeing with me, so he MUST be right.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2008 12:31:28 GMT
Let's look at 'individual improvisation' for a moment... ( a la dictionary.com) Individual: Marked by or expressing individuality; distinctive or individualistic: Improvisation: a performance given extempore without planning or preparation So, by definition, Kata is about as far away from individual improvisation as you can get - as it consists of prearranged moves agreed upon by both participants that is never deviated from. Whereas giving two guys shinai to hit each other, and bogu so they don't get seriously hurt and telling them to go at it seems quite a bit more open to individualism or improvisation. Just the way I see it I guess. After all, we have The Mighty Sensei ChopChop, the undisputed master of all things Koryu disagreeing with me, so he MUST be right. Well what can I say Adam, flattery will get you nowhere mate ! Before you deform this further, I am not disagreeing with you on anything but someone of your training I would have hoped for a more mature response. Why is it that you are taking this personally when noone else is, and there was no intention as such. Why argue on the politics of something, when no matter what JSA you do you are ostensibly ending at a similar goal ? Please refer to my rather elongated PM before you get all sarcie with me dude. Kata is adhered to by in training, so we don't kill or maim the people we choose to train with. If the kata is broken down it forms every move one would ever need in a real-life JSA scenario. Kendo is the otherside of the same coin mate, kendoka wear bogu and strike for specified targets at full strength of which I have to stop just short of striking, because of our lack of armour the blows would be fatal. Every discipline has boundaries, this is what makes it such. Go and have a beer Adam, works for me .
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2008 14:53:19 GMT
Let's look at 'individual improvisation' for a moment... ( a la dictionary.com) So, by definition, Kata is about as far away from individual improvisation as you can get - as it consists of prearranged moves agreed upon by both participants that is never deviated from. Whereas giving two guys shinai to hit each other, and bogu so they don't get seriously hurt and telling them to go at it seems quite a bit more open to individualism or improvisation. My understanding of kata is that it is just a mnemonic. There are only so many ways the body can move. Any random sparring move , if proven effective consistently in whatever system, can be found in one form or another that is developed. My apologies for butting in the conversation. Just getting some clarity on this.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2008 19:47:16 GMT
I'm taking this personally because as much as you say no art is better than the other, you have said the the Jo is the most effective weapon, and therefore, by extension, you have said that Jodo is the most effective martial art. Which I have issue with. Especially when what you say here is regarded as effectively 'canon' in relation to Koryu training. And I HATE the spread of misinformation.
Also, you constantly point out any sortof imperfection in kendo training. You've mentioned many times that there are specified target zones. Let's go over them:
Anywhere on the head.
Anywhere on the torso.
Anywhere on the hands/wrists/forearms.
Thrusts anywhere in the upper torso or face.
Where ELSE would you like to hit that Kendo lacks makes you so disparaging towards it's rule system? I means it's not perfect, but at the very least, and I mean the VERY least, it's as good as the SCA - which has received no end to honors and high report on the forum.
Why else? Well when we take someone who is sankyu in kendo and listen to them more than someone with a nidan in kendo and a nidan in iaido, that illustrates a certain aspect of this forum that frankly I don't like: The popular have more say than the knowledgeable.
|
|
|
Post by rammstein on Mar 20, 2008 22:00:20 GMT
Martial arts are just teachings - that's all they are. They cannot fail, even in the slightest, if their students learn from them. I am presuming this is an opinion and does not necessarily reflect all views of what the intended use of these systems are for. It's an opinion, but I also agree with it to the effect that it must be benificial learning, not bad happits and additude (ashida kim....). karma for adam!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2008 23:21:19 GMT
I'm taking this personally because as much as you say no art is better than the other, you have said the the Jo is the most effective weapon, and therefore, by extension, you have said that Jodo is the most effective martial art. Which I have issue with. Especially when what you say here is regarded as effectively 'canon' in relation to Koryu training. And I HATE the spread of misinformation. Also, you constantly point out any sortof imperfection in kendo training. You've mentioned many times that there are specified target zones. Let's go over them: Anywhere on the head. Anywhere on the torso. Anywhere on the hands/wrists/forearms. Thrusts anywhere in the upper torso or face. Where ELSE would you like to hit that Kendo lacks makes you so disparaging towards it's rule system? I means it's not perfect, but at the very least, and I mean the VERY least, it's as good as the SCA - which has received no end to honors and high report on the forum. Why else? Well when we take someone who is sankyu in kendo and listen to them more than someone with a nidan in kendo and a nidan in iaido, that illustrates a certain aspect of this forum that frankly I don't like: The popular have more say than the knowledgeable. Oh err. sounds like someone is getting bitter because he is standing alone with his own arguement . Almost correct mate, I believe it goes: the knowledgeable have more say than the delusional. This is alot more fairer than your reasoning, I feel. Adam settle down dude, I DID NOT say that Jodo is the most effective MA, YOU DID. There is a difference, if you can't see that maybe you should undertake counselling mate on the differences of what you think is implied, and what actually IS implied. Please feel free to critize Jodo in any way you see fit, it will not stop my training regime and I will still sleep at night. Could you also please provide direct links to where you said I thought one art was better than another Kendo is not for me as an individual, but it is ridiculous to imply I would have some unfounded bias against it. How old are you Adam ? If you cannot except my reasons I give this has nothing to do with me !
|
|
slav
Member
Senior Forumite
Katsujin No Ken
Posts: 4,457
|
Post by slav on Mar 21, 2008 1:03:12 GMT
Jodo, and the Jo I feel today is the most effective in a street scenario. Chop, would you not consider this a "street scenario"?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2008 1:09:43 GMT
Jodo, and the Jo I feel today is the most effective in a street scenario. Chop, would you not consider this a "street scenario"? Yes mate it is, but did the user have the knowledge of the potential of his weapon ?
|
|
slav
Member
Senior Forumite
Katsujin No Ken
Posts: 4,457
|
Post by slav on Mar 21, 2008 1:19:27 GMT
Maybe, maybe not. But regardless, I posted that in response to: Adam settle down dude, I DID NOT say that Jodo is the most effective MA, YOU DID. Adam's a smart guy, and I wouldn't put it past him to have read through other threads in this topic and draw upon them from memory during a discussion such as this. Any way you cut it, a good stun-gun might have helped matters. I find it ironic that it's the most technologically advanced nation on earth, yet the fuzz ran for a stick. Martial Arts has it's place on the street, but trying to subdue a madman in public with minimal casualty (to the police, collatteral, or the assailant) is NOT IT imo, especially if the cop is going to be an idiot . What could be easier than pressing a button? What could be more difficult than mastering a martial art? When the chips are down, the latter is always gonna be a gamble. A drawn pistol or stun-gun would have done the trick. And even then, you've still got the option of MA as backup. Failing of self. And possibly that of the dispatch armorer.
|
|
|
Post by rammstein on Mar 21, 2008 1:27:22 GMT
Chop, with all due respect, he's obviously not alone in this argument.
Adam's side seems a lot more reasonable than any other presented so I'm going to support it.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2008 1:48:22 GMT
So the fact that you don't seem to particularly like Chop has nothing to do with which side you take? Well I am going to stand with Chop on this one I think because as far I can tell from this thread he has done nothing to warrant adam's blatant and childish attacks, he has even really said anything insulting, which for Chop is really surprising Let's look at the topic at hand shall we. We have a crazy knife wielding japanese guy in a kitchen store going ballistic and mister kendo trained police officer runs off and grabs a jo. What is wrong with this situation? Well first of all a jo is nothing like a shinai, especially one that is fifty inches long, a jo is also a lot heavier than a shinai so doing the same strikes as you would with a shinai is ridiculous. In this situation neither judo nor kendo mean crap, kendo is not designed for this situation and judo is also not a good option in this situation. People are going to yell at me but kendo is a sport and so is judo, this officer had no business attempting to use sport based scoring martial arts to take out a dangerous knife wielding assailant. The problem with kendo is that it trains a mindset and a set of rules where if its the only thing you know you won't know how to improvise. A jo is not designed to be used like a shinai, in this case the ability to use a jo would trump kendo or judo. Judo is not a good option because the guy is obviously unhinged, whether mentally or just because of rage remains to be seen, closing distance to use an in close sport based martial art is not a very good idea because the guy isn't doing judo against you, he is doing psycho knife swinging against you. Kendo is also not a good idea because whilst you are trying to do your sport strikes with a jo no less, the guy ducks in and guts you. Had the officer trained in jojutsu or something like that then he would have known how his weapon works, how to use it to keep distance between him and the knife and had the ability to deal with his attacker without risk to himself. The jo is superior to all other weapons depending on the users ability to improvise and his implementation. That is the other issue with the officer in question, he is possibly very good in a dojo situation with a shinai but being able to implement effective kendo moves with a fifty inch jo is just a ridiculous notion. Kendo has "safe" striking points, there is no leg or knee shots, no joint strikes, no combination strikes that change angle and velocity of attack so as to confuse and wrong foot your opponent and the biggest problem with the dojo is that most of the time there is no lethal or harmful intention and a police officer cannot afford to think like that.
|
|
|
Post by randomnobody on Mar 21, 2008 2:09:18 GMT
But isn't kendo part of the Japanese police training? Is jodo? I see this as a failure of the policing methods in Japan. Train the guys to use kendo and they'll want to use kendo. Put a jo in their equipment box, but not a shinai, they'll do what they can with what they have. It may not be much and probably won't work, as we see here, but is it really the individual's fault? What was the guy to do, realize he didn't have the proper tool and just sit around and wait for somebody who knew how to use it to arrive on the scene? That would sure look grand to bystanders. Some madman waving a knife around, and the cop just hanging out, checking his watch, insisting somebody will be here to take care of it soon.
The guy did what he was trained to do. He ran to the nearest location holding tools, etc. that he is to use in such scenarios, but the tool that was there he may or may not have known how best to use, but he used it as best as he felt he could, because that was what he had to do, as his duty as an officer of the law.
Is his training at fault? Sure, but it's not because his training was in kendo and not jodo, or vice versa. I'd like to see a jodo guy pick up a shinai against a knife-wielding psycho. One can't help it if they don't have the right tool for the job, or don't know how to use it. I agree that if the cop just had a darn taser, things would have been much better. Why didn't he have a taser?
What would YOU guys do if you saw a madman waving a knife around inside a store? What if you were a cop? I give the guy credit for trying, despite his unfortunate failure. He was doing his job the best way he knew how, just like any old traffic cop shot by some guy over a traffic violation. Would that be training or the person at fault?
There is really no answer to this question in my mind.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2008 2:11:39 GMT
Maybe, maybe not. But regardless, I posted that in response to: Adam settle down dude, I DID NOT say that Jodo is the most effective MA, YOU DID. Adam's a smart guy, and I wouldn't put it past him to have read through other threads in this topic and draw upon them from memory during a discussion such as this. Any way you cut it, a good stun-gun might have helped matters. I find it ironic that it's the most technologically advanced nation on earth, yet the fuzz ran for a stick. Martial Arts has it's place on the street, but trying to subdue a madman in public with minimal casualty (to the police, collatteral, or the assailant) is NOT IT imo, especially if the cop is going to be an idiot . What could be easier than pressing a button? What could be more difficult than mastering a martial art? When the chips are down, the latter is always gonna be a gamble. A drawn pistol or stun-gun would have done the trick. And even then, you've still got the option of MA as backup. Failing of self. And possibly that of the dispatch armorer. You have been to Tokyo slav, have you not noticed one of those policeboxes or koban ? Maybe its because I grew up watching a tv show called Dr. Who They could not really keep firearms in them because they then would maybe be stolen and used in a crime. Predominantly, the Japanese police do not carry firearms or swords, they never have. Yet they still train them in kendo ? This is not an attack on an art, but a wonder if maybe a policemans role has a place for kendoka training ? Alot of the menkyo kaiden of SMR, are distancing themselves from their once popular police training. Nishioka-sensei(SMR/SRK) and Kuminoda-sensei, I have been informed do not train policeforces anymore but I am unclear as to their reasons why they stopped.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2008 2:17:29 GMT
Chop, with all due respect, he's obviously not alone in this argument. Adam's side seems a lot more reasonable than any other presented so I'm going to support it. Come, come children there is no us and them in this , it is an open question with no definitive answer.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2008 2:18:43 GMT
Random: Whether I was a cop or not if someone was threatening people with a weapon I would do my utmost to try and disarm the guy and knock him unconcious or subdue him long enough for someone to call the police. Then again, I know that I have the skill to be able to do that, possibly a lot more safely than other people and therefore it is my duty to make sure he doesn't hurt anyone else. What is not my duty is using a weapon that I am unfamiliar with or which can potentially be more dangerous to me than to the assailant.
|
|
slav
Member
Senior Forumite
Katsujin No Ken
Posts: 4,457
|
Post by slav on Mar 21, 2008 2:27:07 GMT
Yes, I have been to Tokyo and have seen the police boxes. They're basically a flimsy elevated phone booth with nothing inside. I actually think that their main purpose is to give the officer a little extra height from which to see things better. But anytime I have been by one there has been an officer in it or standing beside it. Surely a stun-gun on the belt wouldn't be so difficult? Here in KY, our state troopers carry a pistol, mace, baton, and tazer all at once...but have very little combatives training. Happy medium, anyone? Come to think of it, I experienced quite a rare thing while I was in Japan: The London terrorist bombings happened while in Tokyo, and the following morning I walked by one of those Police Boxes near where I was staying; I noticed that the police officer manning it (same guy as the day before) was now wearing body armor and holding a short combat shotgun. So I suppose unfortunate incidents beget better sense. I hope the knife incident was a lesson to the local dispatch regarding their equipment, their training, and what lies beyond the expected.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2008 2:31:22 GMT
I have nothing against kendo and judo when they are used for what they were designed for, but they were not designed for effective police work.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2008 2:36:45 GMT
Yes, I have been to Tokyo and have seen the police boxes. They're basically like a flimsy phone booth. But anytime I have been by one there has been an officer in it or standing beside it. Surely a stun-gun on the belt wouldn't be so difficult? Here in KY, our state troopers carry a pistol, mace, baton, and tazer all at once...but have very little combatives training. I am not too sure slav if it is the US/UN that polices Japan, but after WWII the Japanese have been very limited when it comes to arms and usage of them, due to obvious reasons. This would inturn reflect on the general police forces capabilities as well.
|
|
slav
Member
Senior Forumite
Katsujin No Ken
Posts: 4,457
|
Post by slav on Mar 21, 2008 2:37:00 GMT
bloodwraith: I don't think that Police stations have Kendo teams for the purpose of enforcement applications. Rather it is more as a means of keeping the officers physically [and mentally] fit. It's also a tradition that instills camaraderie, dedication, and a competitive spirit among the different police stations. @chop: Not only that , but Japan is literally one of the safest places on earth (relatively speaking) due to their general culture of honor, respect, politeness, and a deep sense of right and wrong. If only the rest of the world would follow suit.
|
|