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Post by rammstein on Mar 21, 2008 2:38:21 GMT
followed by
Do I detect contradiction?
No, bw, not really. Firstly, I believe chop and I had a bit of a truce via PM which ended pretty amicably. Secondly, I'd thank you not to make such obviously biased conclusions in public.
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slav
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Katsujin No Ken
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Post by slav on Mar 21, 2008 2:44:14 GMT
followed by Do I detect contradiction? Do we care? Continuing our relevant discussion is the best way to let any of the perceived "wrinkles" you may or may not detect iron themselves out. What you are doing (whether you are right or wrong in your assertion) will only create more. So please contribute in a constructive manner, or bow out and let things settle themselves.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2008 2:46:11 GMT
bloodwraith: I don't think that Police stations have Kendo teams for the purpose of enforcement applications. Rather it is more as a means of keeping the officers physically [and mentally] fit. It's also a tradition that instills camaraderie, dedication, and a competitive spirit among the different police stations. @chop: Not only that , but Japan is literally one of the safest places on earth (relatively speaking) due to their general culture of honor, respect, politeness, and a deep sense of right and wrong. If only the rest of the world would follow suit. Yeah , apparently you can watch the policeofficers train in kendo in Tokyo. I have heard they are pretty impressive to watch. Tokyo is one of the only citys where I was so drunk(yes, there is more than one) I lost a shoe, my wallet and the plot. Two days later the concierge called me up to say' my shoe, and wallet were at the desk'. I went down and the wallet still had it's money in it, and the shoe was polished to perfection for me. Unbelieveable ! ;D still haven't found the plot though .
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Post by rammstein on Mar 21, 2008 2:49:12 GMT
followed by Do I detect contradiction? Do we care? Continuing our relevant discussion is the best way to let any of the perceived "wrinkles" you may or may not detect iron themselves out. What you are doing (whether you are right or wrong in your assertion) will only create more. So please contribute in a constructive manner, or bow out and let things settle themselves. DO we care? You'd not presme to speak for others, but since the question was poised, the answer is a defeaning yes, as otherwise that little verbal trap earlier wouldn't have been set. I'll bow out as I've got a feeling this could get ugly. I've no need for another hate fest. I've said my part already.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2008 3:03:37 GMT
Sorry mate, forgot it was your job to stick your foot in your mouth with biased conclusions in public, I will stop stealing your thunder hey?
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Mar 21, 2008 4:02:10 GMT
Hang about 5 minutes, my popcorn needs replenishing.
.....................
Ok *sits back stuffing popcorn into mouth* Go on...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2008 6:22:13 GMT
This world is not in white and black. Just because something is one thing, does not mean it is not also another. A sport and a martial art are not mutually exclusive.
Boxing is a sport - it's got as many rules as kendo, yet no one criticizes it's ability to teach people to fight effectively. Other sport/martial arts include tae kwon do, collegiate/olympic wrestling, Kickboxing, Muay Thai, etc. I dare anyone here to tell a Muay Thai practitioner that what he does isn't a martial art because it has competition.
Things like Kendo and Judo didn't just appear out of thin air, nor were they conceived by people who had no martial art training. The practitioners of koryu during the dynamic time of the second half of the 19th century realized the ongoing changes in the world and in society. So they made the art more accessible to the people according to the change in culture. Judo techniques are ridiculously effective in an unarmed confrontation, and judo forms the basis of many a MMA fighter's repertoire. MMA fighting, though I have issue with that as well, is undeniably effective. What I mean is, just because something is Gendai Budo, and not Koryu, doesn't mean that it's any less of an effective martial art, especially in today's world, where such budo may be far MORE appropriate.
Koryu are old - and when they were the norm there were many aspects to the training that are not present today - namely, the whole going out and dueling or fighting for your life thing, etc. Without those things, kata does little for the martial artist. This is why virtually every single great martial artist of the last century and a half have for the most part done away with kata as the foundation of training: Jigoro Kano(who had two menkyo kaiden by his early twenties), Morihei Ueshiba, Bruce Lee, Peter Ralston... all threw kata out the window because in todays world and with today's culture there is not nearly the benefit it once had. [disclaimer: There are still Kata in Aikido Weapons training and also in Judo, however the kata is not the basis of training but rather a way of cataloging techniques]
Jodo/Jojutsu as a system is fine. Nowhere, not once, have I said or even implied that it is not as good as any other martial art. Training with kata is something that I don't particularly find effective. All I'm doing is defending Kendo, which I find to be a great way to learn how to fight(timing, distance, dealing with adrenaline, breathing/remaining calm in a high energy situation, etc.) and which has fallen prey to direct criticism by others. Please someone point out where I have directly criticized the effectiveness of any martial art? I dare you.
Were one to go to the thread 'kendo question', wherein the discussion of Kendo and Kenjutsu was in place; and then immediately following Tom's post (regarding the training of Japanese Police Forces in Kendo ) one were to place ChopChop's initial anecdote about the japanese police officer getting knifed, it would follow suit and be perfectly in context. The fact that he displaced it with it's own thread and by a few days doesn't change that. Maybe I'm the only one who sees it. It's all just far too coincidental.
As this is a philosophical question, it could have far more effectively been put more in the realm of philosophy without using specifically the example of Kendo; also without pointing out the fact that other police forces in japan train in Jojutsu. While this is true information, and while this could be good for the general population interested in martial arts to know, such specific information so closely related to the issue need not have been put into said philosophical query. Following general psychological analysis as well as the idea of Occam's Razor, one clearly comes to the conclusion which I have already stated.
I don't know how to put it more objectively than that.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2008 14:13:02 GMT
So what it comes down to was it was the cop's fault for being ineffective. Whatever art he trained in was fine. As it has been said in another thread, it is not the art but the individual which determines the effectiveness of the system.
Kata is a mnemonic for those who want to preserve a system to make it easy to remember and pass along to another inheritor. It is not without merit. Without free sparring or, at a minimum, two man drills and use of equipment, for most individuals training in kata alone would not be enough. Unless they were gifted or had some special insight.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2008 14:21:33 GMT
Absolutely right in my opinion shmoo, you can be taught the "best" martial art system in the world, learn all the moves by wrote, but if you don't understand key elements to using the art like implementation, distancing, timing etc then it doesn't matter how much you know or how many moves you can learn because it ain't going to help you. Training in kata is definitely not good enough alone, without any real world experience of violent crime or a situation where you had to implement your knowledge then your kata are useless. I have trained in many kata in both chinese martial arts and in ninjitsu and I have to say that those kata are not anywhere near as effective as the modern combat techniques I also know. Better to know one or two moves that will save your life than 50 million kata and 40 million techniques that you have only used against the dummy in the dojo.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2008 21:09:34 GMT
I have trained in many kata in both chinese martial arts and in ninjitsu and I have to say that those kata are not anywhere near as effective as the modern combat techniques I also know. I presume you are referring to "combatives", yes? I know EXACTLY what you are referring to, then. And on that, I completely agree with you.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2008 3:04:12 GMT
Boxing is a sport - it's got as many rules as kendo, yet no one criticizes it's ability to teach people to fight effectively. If I may use a mixed martial art sport as a limited example, way back when the sport was in its infancy many striking styles such as TKD and boxing were very much shown up by wrestling styles... now every mma fighter and his dog train in some form of wrestling. I have also seen matches where a striker style fighter was very soundly beaten by a wrestler-type (seemingly unprepared for a different style) and also matches where strikers have soundly beaten wrestler types. I know mma isn't a great example but it is an avenue where we can see a limited form of free style fighting in use. It seems to me that there is a lot of influence in how much one's training prepares them for fighting in a specific situation/opponent. Then again, there are probably people who have a seemingly innate ability to fight effectively without training... perhaps comparing a fighters abilities is more worthwhile than comparing styles.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2008 3:24:29 GMT
Almost all also train in some form of striking. The fact of the matter is that Striking is good training, and wrestling is also good training. If you're in a situation where you're trained in a particular set of techniques(striking, wrestling, what-have-you), and also trained in how to apply those techniques, the chances are you'll do much better against someone with no training. You still might not, but the chances are better for you for your experience in active and high energy situations.
Exactly my point, and an answer to the original query.
Some people are good fighters because they have a good ability to learn technique and also how to apply it. Others are good fighters from experience. Others are good fighters because of both of those things. Others still are good because they're 'naturally gifted'. Most really good ones have a combination of all three aspects. Any way you slice it, having any of those three aspects; Technique and Application, Experience, or Natural Talent; increases the odds in your favor in a 'live' situation.
It just so happens that Mr. Japan-Cop apparently lacked experience in live situations, and also natural talent(on the other side of the coin - maybe the crazyknifeman simply WAS just really good). Though whether or not his learned technique was learned to be applied or not will never be known.
Also there are such things as flukes in this world.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2008 3:37:24 GMT
Vy: that is what I was trying to say, if the guy who is taught doesn't know how to implement his abilities in a situation or know about timing then he is just as worse off or possibly even more worse off than someone who doesn't fight. Shmoo: Partly referring to combatives, partly referring to a few other things to
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2008 3:43:35 GMT
Almost all also train in some form of striking. The fact of the matter is that Striking is good training, and wrestling is also good training. If you're in a situation where you're trained in a particular set of techniques(striking, wrestling, what-have-you), and also trained in how to apply those techniques, the chances are you'll do much better against someone with no training. You still might not, but the chances are better for you for your experience in active and high energy situations. I find myself agreeing very much with this point!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2008 3:48:34 GMT
I think all training is good training, but not all good training is good in every situation.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2008 3:57:20 GMT
I hope this is not too far off topic, but when I consider the concept of fighting preparedness, my mind usually comes back to this serious reminder of what can happen when someone is unprepared for their opponent.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2008 4:12:24 GMT
Wow, that was brutal!
Back to the topic at hand though, whilst it was probably the officer and not the technique or his weapon we are overlooking something. Regardless of what weapon you are wielding, even a firearm, a knife is a weapon that you can not prepare yourself to fight, you either go up against it and come out again or you don't, that is how simple it is fighting a knife. The knife is the most unpredictable and the fastest attacking weapon of them all. If someone knows how to switch grips it makes them even more dangerous. You can't psyche yourself up to fight a knife, you just do it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2008 23:48:28 GMT
Speaking of unpreparedness, what happens if the knife wielder was quite experienced and determined to stick it?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2008 0:40:42 GMT
Shmoo: Now you know where I am coming from when I am talking about combatives The piper system is one of the hardest systems to defend against and if both guys know it neither of them walks away. I know some of that particular system and a few others with grip switching techniques being my major focus because if you don't know which direction the knife is coming at you, how do you defend against it. To be able to rapidly switch from an orthodox grip to an unorthodox grip and back again with barely a second in between switches and be able to do that constantly and unpredictably it makes for a very lethal fighting system. I have actually created my own system of combatives from what I have learned and have taught a few people and that is the most fun part actually, getting to teach and to learn at the same time
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2008 17:37:29 GMT
At this point I think it would be safe to say to take it to PM if necessary. The subject matter may be out of scope for this forum and more appropriate for another one I moderate at.
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