TomK
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Post by TomK on May 2, 2011 20:44:51 GMT
I would like to take a minute to discuss with the forum how ATrim swords are seen. the reason I want to do this is because of a post I read in a thread recently. the thread was old enough that I figured I wouldn't post on it and beside I don't want to derail that thread nor do I want to call out the person who made the comment. I am not upset at the person who made this comment but I am very concerned that this might be a common perception of ATrim swords in which case I want to dispell that perception. so if you know who posted this quote (below) please refrain from revealing it, also please refrain from linking to the discussion it came from. I don't want an appology from anyone regarding this, no one has done anything wrong so let's not go that way. that said please read this quote and tell me if this lines up with your understanding: now that we have come this far I would like to state a few things: the idea that is not only completely wrong but I'm sure Gus would find it rather offensive. it is true that Gus' fittings tend to be very basic. this is done on purpose to keep costs down. the style, size and especially the weights of the fittings, especially the pommels is something that Gus considers very deeply and in fact is something that he gets right better than pretty much any other maker (including those that reside under the "A" tab of the yellow pages  ) I just cannot stress to you all how much NOTHING Gus does could ever be considered "slapped together" in any way. let me assure you all the key word is not "blade" when it comes to ATrims. the entire sword is considered and it must all balance out properly to get the handling and harmonics and all the rest of the "magic" that makes ATrims such wonderful swords. another comment I'd like to address: those fittings that everyone loved so much were made by Gus. Christian polished them up and blued them or treated them in some ways but Gus made them. if you look at the Guard on my Antioch or my 1557 those guards are way better than your run of the mill ATrim parts (and it was only the run-of-the-mill ATrim parts that were available via the BYO program anyway), but Gus made them. the reason we don't see those often are because those parts are expensive to make and Gus feels it is not good for his business to make them too often. Christian's magic was and is primarily in the making of grips, scabbards, and decorations for the swords. he has a wonderfully artistic eye and could make the parts come together in a way that was beautiful but he and gus often had to reach compromises because something that works artistically does not always work in engineering. for the sword to operate properly the engineering has to be right, the art doesn't. thus Gus is more concerned with engineering than art. if someone wanted a fancy guard made Gus can do it, but it is going to make the sword expensive and quite honestly, if a sword is going to cost that much there needs to be some nice artistry to it. we currently do not have an answer for Christian's level of artistry so we have not been trying to sell $900 swords. on to the next idea: I think you'd be surprised at how much variation the Oakeshott typology allows, in fact I bet you'd be astounded by the variation available in just one single type. every sword maker has their own interpretations and that is just as true today as it was in history. you could get a type XII arming sword from Albion, A&A, ATrim, and any other maker you fancy all in one place and I bet you no two of them would feel enough a like that anyone consider them even close to one another let alone basically identical. this is one of the true beauties of our hobby: there really is so much variety out there that there's always something new to explore in a sword no matter how many you have held and handled. Sean (shadowhowler) has handled more swords than most people will ever come close to and I hear from him quite often how he got a sword that had interesting or surprising qualities to it. yes, his experience will allow him to make educated guesses but if you read his posts and actually find one on a sword he hasn't touched a representative of (this is a task I can tell you) he will say right away that he cannot speak on the sword because he hasn't handled it. he might make a few general comments along the lines of it could be this way or that way, but he will make sure to tell you that he doesn't know. this is because he understands how much variety there really is available. I'm not trying to start any fights or to call anyone out but I definitely wanted to clear up a few points. at this point I open the floor to hear from the rest of you as to what your impression was or is. I hope I have not ruffled too many feathers but I think something had to be said. |
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Greg
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Post by Greg on May 2, 2011 20:51:25 GMT
The primary reason why I love ATrims so much is BECAUSE the finish of the blade is so basic. I really don't need ultra perfect lines and curves, I need a pommel that weights 0.71 lbs so that it will put the hilt percussion node EXACTLY where it needs to be.
I don't need invisible seams on my leather wrap, I need a wooden core that does not wiggle when I use the blade.
Gus gives me what I NEED as a sword collector. A fully functional, masterfully crafted tool. I don't need some gem encrusted hooha to hang on my wall and go "look at that, it was expensive." I need something I can hang on my wall and go "look at that, it's fun to use!"
Edit:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Gus used to be the main dude over at Albion when it came to blade design. Then he got ousted once Albion started figuring out how to do it on their own, right? So I'd imagine that Gus has quite the stockpile of measurements and dimensions from his career in swordmaking.
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Post by chrisperoni on May 2, 2011 20:58:28 GMT
I have always held the belief that Gus focused on the sword as a whole- giving equal respect to every part as they are all integral to the final product. If anything I think he gives extra attention to the details- He and Tinker are crazy for the nodes and balance, after all.
At most I would concede he may forgo certain aesthetic aspects in favour of simplicity- for example we all know grip wrapping is not his most fav thing- but every grip he makes fits and works well.
Well now, I see Greg has made a very similar point to me- and faster- and funnier. Fine then Greg, you win this round :mrgreen:
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Sean (Shadowhowler)
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on May 2, 2011 21:08:00 GMT
I think I see some truth in what the quoted post said... but its open to interpretation. I can not speak to how Atrim swords are perceived by the sword collecting community as a whole... or even by the SBG'er you quoted... I can only speak to how *I* see Gus's work, and unlike the person quoted I speak from having owned over 20+ Atrim swords and Almost 10 Albion swords. I don't think Gus 'slaps together' anything... and I certainly don't think pommels and cross-guards are 'an afterthought' to him in sword construction. I think everything Gus does... from blade geometry and profile to fitting choice... I think it is all centered around one goal: Performance. The performance he is looking to get out of each sword might be very different... as he makes SO many different styles of sword... so many in fact I and pretty much everyone I know sometimes gets em mixed up. Gus makes a lot of swords.  What Albion does differently then Gus to my mind is not that they pay more attention to the whole sword... its that they pay more attention to the fit/finish and level of polish of the sword... and to making the sword correspond with historical examples. This often results, in my view, in Albions being more attractive swords then Atrims... but not better performing by any means. That, to me, is what Christian Fletcher did... he made the Atrim swords... which were awesome performers... ever bit as attractive as Albions... tho still not necessary as 'historically accurate.' Another thing (again, my opinion) that separates Gus's sword making from Albions is his willingness to experiment. I feel that Gus Trim, coming from a performance first, sword user philosophy of sword making... he is willing to try different types of blades with pommels or different geometries within blade typologies that might not be found in historical precedent... but that might wind up being an AWESOME performer of a blade. Albion sticks to making swords that look as much like swords that did exist... Gus is more willing to make swords that might not have existed or if they did, did so in smaller numbers, but will perform amazingly well. So... basically when I think of an 'Atrim' sword I think of a sword that was engineered every step of the way with performance as it goal... and when I think of Albion I think of a sword that was engineered every step of the way with recreation as its goal. Some Atrims also happen to be very attractive... if utilitarian in appearance. Many Albions perform very well as user blades (they were made as close to spec as blades that were, in fact, USED as possible.) but both swords differ to me in the core philosohpy of their creation. As to what you said about when I comment on swords I've no first hand experience with... I feel this is VERY important to do and think we should all be careful to do it. Each of us has different experience with swords... and I think when offering our opinions on things its important to those who will be reading and considering our opinions to have a context on which to decide how to weigh our opinions. Some people on here have forgotten more about swords then I'll ever know... others have never even laid their hands on a real sword... yet post often and with such confidence things they have read that someone reading their posts might think they are an expert... when in fact they have no clue what they are talking about. I think its VERY important... even more so for those of us with something like 'VIP reviewer' or 'Instructor' next to our name... to make clear what experience forms our opinions. |
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Post by Enkidu on May 2, 2011 21:34:40 GMT
I pretty much agree with everything Sean said.
Owning one I know what to expect from an Atrim, an havind held up two Albions i also have a sensible feeling of their wares. But, i think that what gives people that impression is that Gus uses mainly wheel pommels and straight cross guards ( with some variations ) so to some, it may looks like he uses only a couple of interchangeable pieces that he swaps from sword to sword. We know that it isnt the case, Gus's swords would balance like sempriniesque pogosticks if so. But if he tries up a couple of different shapes he might then break that illusion.
That said, his swords are perfectly fine like they are IMO, but if he wants to change this feeling that might do the trick.
My two cents
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Post by LittleJP on May 2, 2011 22:27:24 GMT
IMO, comparing an albion to an atrim is like...comparing a street Ferrari or Lamborghini to a NASCAR stock car. Sure, the Ferrari's gonna look nice, perform pretty damn well. The NASCAR has the bare mininum of comfort and a fair amount of(depending on who you're talking to) looks, but everything is tuned to bring the most performance out of it. Personally, I'd rather have an Atrim, since I'm more of a performance over looks kind of guy. Oh, and I'm not that rich  |
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Post by chuckinohio on May 3, 2011 0:34:44 GMT
Atrim compared to Albion-
Comparing a Fletcher Borderwatch(Albion XVIa) to an Atrim Makers Mark XVIa, NO DIFFERENCE!
That is performance wise. Cosmetically, there is a big difference, but that is it.
Any one who looks down their nose at an Atrim as an ill designed conglomeration, or as a cheap copy of a better sword is really misinformed.
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Post by Hiroshi on May 3, 2011 1:03:26 GMT
Just so you gus know, gus may use alot of what look like the same pommels but having 11 swords right infront of me as I type this message I can tell you even though alot of them look the same there are a quite a few variations.
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Post by Nathan Robinson on May 3, 2011 1:22:23 GMT
Tom-
With respect, I don't think you're doing yourself any favors by comparing ATrim swords to other manufacturers. This is a point I've been communicating to Gus for years. When he and I last talked some three months ago, he voiced that he finally has understood completely what I meant.
Gus's swords aren't intended to fill the same niche as the offerings of other makers. As his business has grown, he's learned how to make a product that fits a market need that was not being fulfilled. Rather than go head-to-head against other makers, he's carved out his own niche and done so very well.
Consumers will always attempt to draw comparisons between products and makers. This doesn't mean that the vendors should fall into that trap. Instead, I encourage makers to clearly consider their own position within the market and craft their messaging around their products' distinct offerings.
Makers who get pulled into the comparative game are doing as much marketing for their competition as they are for themselves. Further, they risk confusing the marketplace by muddying the waters. When this is done with ATrims, this dilutes one of the biggest market strengths of the brand: the differentiation.
For consumers like myself, it's a wonderful thing having choices. Products from Gus Trim, Albion, Arms & Armor, Windlass, etc., are each focused at a different segment of the market. Those segments are separated in many ways: by use, by price-point, by historical inspiration, by type, etc, etc. Each maker has sliced off their chunk and should learn how to squarely position themselves to own their segment top to bottom.
Comparisons perpetuate comparisons.
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Marc Kaden Ridgeway
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Post by Marc Kaden Ridgeway on May 3, 2011 1:35:18 GMT
I couldn't agree more Nathan...
Albion and Gus are playing completely different games...
Albion has a level of fit , finish and histrocity that is a whole different brand distinction than an ATrim...
However , when handling and cutting with an ATrim, well, I personally feel the difference. It is my opinion that gus's swords are the best performing "production" Euro "replicas" availiable.
The more Albions and A&A's I handle the more I love Angus Trims... don't get me wrong , the other "Big two " are great, I love em... but what can I say I'm more cutter than collector...
That's why I love Gus's swords.
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Sean (Shadowhowler)
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on May 3, 2011 1:42:31 GMT
Very well said...
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TomK
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Post by TomK on May 3, 2011 1:53:00 GMT
I think this thread has gone off track a bit. I am not here to compare ATrims to Albions or A&A or VA or any other makers swords. I started this thread to hear what people's impressions and perceptions of ATrim swords are because a member expressed the idea that Gus "slaps together" his swords and to counter the idea that Gus copies the swords of other makers. please re-read my original post, it is only the people below that original post that are making Albion/(any other maker) to ATrim comparisons
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Post by Nathan Robinson on May 3, 2011 1:59:27 GMT
Tom-
That's my point. Your topic quoted another person and his product comparison, which propagated further comparison.
I submit that rather than attempting to go on the defensive and counter an individual's critique, you craft your messaging to discuss your product, its strengths, and its intended purpose within the marketplace. This will serve to craft your and strengthen your brand and its position.
Intended or not, your topic does compare ATrims to other makers and my well-intended advice was for you to put some further thought into this strategy.
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Sean (Shadowhowler)
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on May 3, 2011 2:02:54 GMT
Sorry Tom... I only continued with the metaphor of comparasion because that is what was done in the quotes in your OP, so I addressed those directly.
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TomK
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Post by TomK on May 3, 2011 2:06:45 GMT
well then my point was missed.
there's no way to avoid people making comparisons, but I specifically asked about a specific perception of OUR product.
I will admit to pointing a minor jibe or two in there tongue-in-cheak but the point and the aim was to discuss ATrim swords only here. I agree that Albions and Arms and Armor and Windlass and every other maker has their own place in the market and I also have deep respect for their products, employees, craftsmen, and craft.
let me now be crystal clear with every one reading this thread:
PLEASE do not make comparisons to ATrims to other products here, this thread is to discuss your impressions of ATrim swords and, hopefully, to make sure that some mis-conceptions are laid to rest with finality. that is it, the end.
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Post by Pogo4321 on May 3, 2011 2:29:09 GMT
I've owned 2 Atrims. The word that comes to mind is utilitarian. They were well made user swords; certainly not slapped together but to my mind not very aesthetically pleasing either. Aesthetics vary widely, so take that for what it's worth.
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Post by LittleJP on May 3, 2011 2:40:44 GMT
In that case, I'd describe them as a working man's sword, if that term applies to swords. It's something I'd trust to go to battle with, rather than go somewhere to look pretty with.
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Post by Cold Napalm on May 3, 2011 2:42:02 GMT
Okay some of the older atrim I feel really did have the fitting be an after thought. The handles of the new ones are pretty top notch from what I'm seeing tho, but the fitting choices STILL feel like they are kinda picked for their weight and slapped on. They don't fit the sword or in many cases the handle very well. If you have a narrow disk pommel paired to a short thick handle, the sword looks like it is slapped together. I mean honestly, there are a LOT of atrim I would buy if not for the poor choice in fitting that make the sword look like it is "slapped" together. The key word is LOOKS. I know gus takes time in his selections, but that still doesn't negate that the sword looks like it has been slapped together. Gus swords ARE great swords...they just don't always LOOK like it tho. And looks is a big part of perception.
Tom, I'm not sure how much input you have on development...but really, somebody who has an eye for swords putting in some input may help. A lot of the gus blades that came out when christian fletcher was doing the maker's mark line had a pretty significant increase in looks.
So does this make any more sense where the other guy maybe coming from?
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TomK
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Post by TomK on May 3, 2011 3:48:26 GMT
ok this is what I've been looking for. I'm still not really seeing it myself. I've seen a large number of these swords now and I can't say that any of them looked slapped together to me. certainly some look better than others and certainly there can be found evidence of the production process. Gus' older swords were a lot more plain-jane looking and some of the older ones were down right unattractive to me, but I have to say that the new designs have been blowing my socks off. I have a hard time thinking of a sword I think is nicer looking than the XIX.1 for instance. Aesthetics have been a topic of serious discussion lately and I think huge amounts of progress is being made and that all while staying in the same price point or rather even dropping price point to some extent since joining with us.
as for your opinion that some fittings "don't fit the sword or in many cases the handle very well." do you mean they don't fit stylistically or that they don't mate up well and sit securely?
I can see why you might think they don't match in style, after all style is, ultimately, in our own minds and hearts and what works great for one guy is terrible for another. I know we recently disagreed on the fittings of the XVIa.3 and I'm completely fine to disagree with you on that one and let the issue rest as a difference of preference. I know you have a certain expectation in your head, as do we all, and our sword didn't hit the mark for you. I think it was Plato who thought that all people had in their spiritual life before being born been in heaven and saw the perfect example of all worldly things and that image was burned into our subconscious thus resulting in our burning desire to create things in an effort to recapture the beauty and perfection of that heavenly what-ever-it-was. so in this analogy everyone remembers the perfect heavenly sword a little differently and focuses on different aspects of it. I can completely respect when someone feels like a sword (even one of ours) does not come satisfactorily close to representing the perfect heavenly sword for them, but when it is called wrong I feel like I have to re-examine the piece and then either concede the fact or argue in opposition.
unless you've had one in had I can't imagine how you could form a reasonable opinion about physical fit and seating together of the parts so I'm going to assume you meant style, thus the preceding.
ok, with that large body of text behind us I would like to invite you to describe as specifically as you can what you think would help to improve the fit that you are unsatisfied with.
as for how much say I have in design it's like this: Gus listens to me and respects my opinion but we both know that he is the guy making the sword and his decision is the one that is going to make the sword. quite honestly, Gus knows so much more about swords than I do that I have rarely felt I had any point to press an issue. there have been some that he came around to my point of view. even a blind hog finds an acorn now and then.
Gus knows that there are ways in which his swords can look better but he has to make choices, as every maker does, as to which things he is going to spend time, money, material and energy making better and which ones aren't important enough to fool with. we may disagree with his priorities but I doubt that any of us can really come up with issues he is unaware of.
the swords that you refer to coming out of Christian Fletcher's shop having a greatly improved look were also significantly more expensive than the swords we are selling now. that level of beauty will return to ATrim swords in time and maybe it will even be surpassed (hard to say since Christian is such a fine artist). we are not yet prepared to offer those swords, but there will come a time when we are. they will have a different flair, of course, but that level will return. Gus is a small shop and is very much effected by the economy and current events. we feel that in our current economic environment the simple budget swords are the way to go to ensure that we survive, but please don't make the mistake of thinking this is all we are capable of. there are surprises and delights coming and we are planning for them now. I'm not sure how long it will take to get everything rolling but you can all be sure that we are not sitting still just because we have dropped back to the basics.
for those of you who actually read all of that: thank you, I hope I didn't waste your time.
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Talon
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Post by Talon on May 3, 2011 5:18:08 GMT
well i only have one a trim (though i've ordered two more) the one a trim i have atm is one of gus's early ones,the fit and finish are spot on,the cross centres itself perfectly every time,the pommel is well machined,and sits perfectly cental on the tang, i think they key word with gus's swords has always been performance,every a trim sword i've seen looks exactly like what it was intended to look like,a high performance sword intended to be used,the level of polish on the blades is perfect for me,enough polishing to not hinder the blade as it tracks through the target,but still easy to maintain, (i dont like a high polish anyway) for the money,i dont think they can be beaten,its extremely rare to hear a bad thing about an a trim blade when it comes to them doing what they were designed for (cutting things and making grins) |
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) I just cannot stress to you all how much NOTHING Gus does could ever be considered "slapped together" in any way. 
